'08 Cubs Second Base

[jersey cubs fan]

I haven't read this thread, but it looks to me like some person or persons are trying to argue that Theriot is better than DeRosa.

 

I really hope not.

 

 

Anyway, 2008 2B belongs to DeRosa, unless the Cubs need to deal him in order to clear some payroll for a significant upgrade elsewhere. Mark is a nice player who is a safe bet to OPS+ around 100 the next two years. But I'd be willing to platoon Theriot and Fontenot at 2B, maybe OPS around 750-780 with an OPS+ between 95-100, if trading DeRosa facilitates a bigger improvement elsewhere. It would be taking a small hit at 2B for what would have to be a huge step forward at SS.

I never said Theriot was better than DeRosa, what I did say was a interrogative statement asking why one automatically assumes DeRosa instantly gets the job at 2b over Theriot-if Theriot is forced from short that is-without competiton during spring training.

Haha, what?

 

And DeRosa should automatically be given the job because he's better than Theriot. The same reason Derrek Lee won't be battling Darryl Ward for the starting 1B job in Spring Training.

Did you just compare Lee-Ward and DeRosa-Theriot? I really hope you didn't, I'm disgusted at the comparison.

 

I'm disgusted with the delusion regarding Theriot.

[sethuel1]

I haven't read this thread, but it looks to me like some person or persons are trying to argue that Theriot is better than DeRosa.

 

I really hope not.

 

 

Anyway, 2008 2B belongs to DeRosa, unless the Cubs need to deal him in order to clear some payroll for a significant upgrade elsewhere. Mark is a nice player who is a safe bet to OPS+ around 100 the next two years. But I'd be willing to platoon Theriot and Fontenot at 2B, maybe OPS around 750-780 with an OPS+ between 95-100, if trading DeRosa facilitates a bigger improvement elsewhere. It would be taking a small hit at 2B for what would have to be a huge step forward at SS.

I never said Theriot was better than DeRosa, what I did say was a interrogative statement asking why one automatically assumes DeRosa instantly gets the job at 2b over Theriot-if Theriot is forced from short that is-without competiton during spring training.

Haha, what?

 

And DeRosa should automatically be given the job because he's better than Theriot. The same reason Derrek Lee won't be battling Darryl Ward for the starting 1B job in Spring Training.

Did you just compare Lee-Ward and DeRosa-Theriot? I really hope you didn't, I'm disgusted at the comparison.

 

i'd say those comparisons are fairly similar.

[Sammy Sofa]

I haven't read this thread, but it looks to me like some person or persons are trying to argue that Theriot is better than DeRosa.

 

I really hope not.

 

 

Anyway, 2008 2B belongs to DeRosa, unless the Cubs need to deal him in order to clear some payroll for a significant upgrade elsewhere. Mark is a nice player who is a safe bet to OPS+ around 100 the next two years. But I'd be willing to platoon Theriot and Fontenot at 2B, maybe OPS around 750-780 with an OPS+ between 95-100, if trading DeRosa facilitates a bigger improvement elsewhere. It would be taking a small hit at 2B for what would have to be a huge step forward at SS.

I never said Theriot was better than DeRosa, what I did say was a interrogative statement asking why one automatically assumes DeRosa instantly gets the job at 2b over Theriot-if Theriot is forced from short that is-without competiton during spring training.

Haha, what?

 

And DeRosa should automatically be given the job because he's better than Theriot. The same reason Derrek Lee won't be battling Darryl Ward for the starting 1B job in Spring Training.

Did you just compare Lee-Ward and DeRosa-Theriot? I really hope you didn't, I'm disgusted at the comparison.

 

i'd say those comparisons are fairly similar.

 

No kidding. DeRosa really is that much better.

[Mizzou]

I haven't read this thread, but it looks to me like some person or persons are trying to argue that Theriot is better than DeRosa.

 

I really hope not.

 

 

Anyway, 2008 2B belongs to DeRosa, unless the Cubs need to deal him in order to clear some payroll for a significant upgrade elsewhere. Mark is a nice player who is a safe bet to OPS+ around 100 the next two years. But I'd be willing to platoon Theriot and Fontenot at 2B, maybe OPS around 750-780 with an OPS+ between 95-100, if trading DeRosa facilitates a bigger improvement elsewhere. It would be taking a small hit at 2B for what would have to be a huge step forward at SS.

I never said Theriot was better than DeRosa, what I did say was a interrogative statement asking why one automatically assumes DeRosa instantly gets the job at 2b over Theriot-if Theriot is forced from short that is-without competiton during spring training.

Haha, what?

 

And DeRosa should automatically be given the job because he's better than Theriot. The same reason Derrek Lee won't be battling Darryl Ward for the starting 1B job in Spring Training.

Did you just compare Lee-Ward and DeRosa-Theriot? I really hope you didn't, I'm disgusted at the comparison.

Are you really disgusted? Seriously? Cause that's kind of weird.

 

But yeah, I'd say it's a pretty good comparison. Lee is clearly better than Ward, and DeRosa is clearly better than Theriot. What am I missing here?

[Soul]

DeRosa is simply a better baseball player than Theriot.

 

 

Is this one of those "all positions should be open to a competition in spring training or it's not fair!" kind of arguments?

 

Because that's lame if it is.

[TruffleShuffle]

eric patterson

[inari]

I haven't read this thread, but it looks to me like some person or persons are trying to argue that Theriot is better than DeRosa.

 

I really hope not.

 

 

Anyway, 2008 2B belongs to DeRosa, unless the Cubs need to deal him in order to clear some payroll for a significant upgrade elsewhere. Mark is a nice player who is a safe bet to OPS+ around 100 the next two years. But I'd be willing to platoon Theriot and Fontenot at 2B, maybe OPS around 750-780 with an OPS+ between 95-100, if trading DeRosa facilitates a bigger improvement elsewhere. It would be taking a small hit at 2B for what would have to be a huge step forward at SS.

I never said Theriot was better than DeRosa, what I did say was a interrogative statement asking why one automatically assumes DeRosa instantly gets the job at 2b over Theriot-if Theriot is forced from short that is-without competiton during spring training.

Haha, what?

 

And DeRosa should automatically be given the job because he's better than Theriot. The same reason Derrek Lee won't be battling Darryl Ward for the starting 1B job in Spring Training.

Did you just compare Lee-Ward and DeRosa-Theriot? I really hope you didn't, I'm disgusted at the comparison.

 

Really? Disgusted? Because the gap between DeRosa and Theriot just might be bigger than the gap between Ward and D-Lee.

[C.C.]

Any chance we can get Augie Ojeda back?

[HoopsCubs]

So let's pretend we get Renteria or A-Rod to play short? Why is everyone so quick to assume DeRosa is automatically the starter at second base over Theriot. They both have a career OBP of .341, Riot does have a 29 point lower slg of .379 compared to DeRosa's .408, I'd say they are about the same when it comes to batting, with a slight edge to DeRo. So another tool we can use to value them is baserunning, and yes it is relevant. Riot stole 28 bases and was caught 4 times in '07, good for a 87%. DeRo stole one base and was caught twice good for 33%. over their career, Riot has a 87 percent success rate compared to DeRosa's 48 percent. We've now concluded that Riot is considerably faster and better at stealing base than DeRosa and that DeRosa is a slightly better batter. Next tool I can think of is fielding, Riot has a career FP of .992 percent at 2B compared to DeRosa's .984 percent. We've now concluded that Theriot is a better fielder and baserunner than DeRosa but slightly weaker batter.

 

Let's not forget that DeRosa is on the wrong side of 30 and likely to decrease while Theriot is 27 going on 28 and should improve or stay the same.

 

Based on the evidence, and if we get a new SS, I'd say we'd go into ST in a fair battle between DeRosa and Riot with the better performer getting the nod and without experience or past performance being considered.

 

Ideas?

 

Hendry might be better off selling high on Theriot. His OBP is below average and he has no pop. Maybe Hendry can market Ryan's "grit and playing hard" into a nice deal. Short of no trade, I like Theriot as a bench player, but there's no way he deserves to start at 2B over DeRosa. And even if the club was configured in such a way that DeRosa was starting in RF, I would look elsewhere for a starting 2B.

 

Hoops

[SABR Gamer]

So let's pretend we get Renteria or A-Rod to play short? Why is everyone so quick to assume DeRosa is automatically the starter at second base over Theriot. They both have a career OBP of .341, Riot does have a 29 point lower slg of .379 compared to DeRosa's .408, I'd say they are about the same when it comes to batting, with a slight edge to DeRo. So another tool we can use to value them is baserunning, and yes it is relevant. Riot stole 28 bases and was caught 4 times in '07, good for a 87%. DeRo stole one base and was caught twice good for 33%. over their career, Riot has a 87 percent success rate compared to DeRosa's 48 percent. We've now concluded that Riot is considerably faster and better at stealing base than DeRosa and that DeRosa is a slightly better batter. Next tool I can think of is fielding, Riot has a career FP of .992 percent at 2B compared to DeRosa's .984 percent. We've now concluded that Theriot is a better fielder and baserunner than DeRosa but slightly weaker batter.

 

Let's not forget that DeRosa is on the wrong side of 30 and likely to decrease while Theriot is 27 going on 28 and should improve or stay the same.

 

Based on the evidence, and if we get a new SS, I'd say we'd go into ST in a fair battle between DeRosa and Riot with the better performer getting the nod and without experience or past performance being considered.

 

Ideas?

 

If you look at Theriot's offensive numbers broken down, they are greatly inflated by his 2006 numbers at the end of the season vs other team's 40 man call-up pitchers, and his July this year. It is wrong to say that DeRosa has a SLIGHT edge on offense, he is a MUCH MUCH better hitter than Theriot, and it's not even close. DeRosa is a better average hitter, his average was 27 points higher, power hitter, he slugged 74 points higher, and he is more patient, posting an OBP 25 points higher. DeRosa is also a very good defensive 2nd base man. This isn't a competition, Theriot is a utility player, not a starter, DeRosa will be the starter, end of story.

 

Also, I don't want to sound rude, but when you post don't write it as "we" conclude, it "you" not "we" that has makes that conclusion. Also you are looking at Career numbers which is unfair because DeRosa was a bench player/pinch hitter until last year. If you want a fair comparison, compare Theriot to DeRosa's numbers as a starter and DeRosa will kill Theriot. Also it matters more how a player played last year then how they played 5-6 years ago in Atlanta. It's all about what your doing for me now, and DeRosa is more productive than Theriot, he will be the starter. Also to make up for the lack of SB's, if we get Renteria that adds SB's and also Soriano will be healed from his leg injury and his SB numbers will go back up to his usual 30+ so Theriot's SB's are not a big enough plus to justify starting him over DeRosa. Finally MY LAST COMMENT, Theriot doesn't have the stamina to last a full season as he showed this year when his numbers declined rapidly at the end of the year, going from a .348 average in July, then dropping to a .276 average in August, and then hitting an abysmal .202 in September. I think Theriot can be a VERY valuable asset on the bench but I don't think he belongs in the starting lineup of a world series team and I don't want him anywhere near our starting lineup next year. To be honest, I think Cedeno has much more potential than Ryan.

[SABR Gamer]

Derosa is also better defensively, to add on to the large edge he has offensively.

 

this isn't even remotely a question. theriot is not close to derosa.

Really, FP was the only career mark I found on B-R and FP favored Riot. As far as physical defensive skills go, they're both surehanded and have about even arms. Theriot is way faster though.

 

DeRosa has better arm than Theriot

[SABR Gamer]

sign eckstein and move theriot to second. sign paul lo duca to play catcher. trade aram for scott rolen. murton + pie for ryan freel. lee + soriano for white, unselfish minor league hustlers. convince jt snow to come out of retirement, sign scott podsednik, and here's your 2008 cubs:

 

1. podsednik lf

2. eckstein ss

3. rolen 3b

4. jacque jones cf

5. lo duca c

6. jt snow 1b

7. freel rf

8. theriot 2b

 

even if this team sucks, at least they play the game the right way and do all the little things.

 

I thinks it's funny that nearly the entire "scrappy" team is white, I wonder if that is just a coincidence.

[E.J.]

Derosa is also better defensively, to add on to the large edge he has offensively.

 

this isn't even remotely a question. theriot is not close to derosa.

Really, FP was the only career mark I found on B-R and FP favored Riot. As far as physical defensive skills go, they're both surehanded and have about even arms. Theriot is way faster though.

 

DeRosa has better arm than Theriot

 

Yeah, but Theriot is so fast man.

[David]

I think we're all missing the obvious question here.

 

Why on earth would you want to put a "natural shortstop" like Theriot at 2B???!

[Soul]

I think we're all missing the obvious question here.

 

Why on earth would you want to put a "natural shortstop" like Theriot at 2B???!

 

Girls on the 3rd base side can see his face better.

[Warren Brusstar]

I haven't read this thread, but it looks to me like some person or persons are trying to argue that Theriot is better than DeRosa.

 

I really hope not.

 

 

Anyway, 2008 2B belongs to DeRosa, unless the Cubs need to deal him in order to clear some payroll for a significant upgrade elsewhere. Mark is a nice player who is a safe bet to OPS+ around 100 the next two years. But I'd be willing to platoon Theriot and Fontenot at 2B, maybe OPS around 750-780 with an OPS+ between 95-100, if trading DeRosa facilitates a bigger improvement elsewhere. It would be taking a small hit at 2B for what would have to be a huge step forward at SS.

I never said Theriot was better than DeRosa, what I did say was a interrogative statement asking why one automatically assumes DeRosa instantly gets the job at 2b over Theriot-if Theriot is forced from short that is-without competiton during spring training.

 

Your little world is going to be rocked if they acquire ARod or Renteria. DeRosa is starting somewhere. That might be at 2B (where he should start). But if management irrationally decided that Theriot should play 2B every day, guess where Derosa is going to play?

 

Poor Murton fan. Ultimately, this is going to be a choice between Theriot and Murton. Who will you root for? Man Crush #1 or Man Crush #2?

[illiniguy]

I haven't read this thread, but it looks to me like some person or persons are trying to argue that Theriot is better than DeRosa.

 

I really hope not.

 

 

Anyway, 2008 2B belongs to DeRosa, unless the Cubs need to deal him in order to clear some payroll for a significant upgrade elsewhere. Mark is a nice player who is a safe bet to OPS+ around 100 the next two years. But I'd be willing to platoon Theriot and Fontenot at 2B, maybe OPS around 750-780 with an OPS+ between 95-100, if trading DeRosa facilitates a bigger improvement elsewhere. It would be taking a small hit at 2B for what would have to be a huge step forward at SS.

I never said Theriot was better than DeRosa, what I did say was a interrogative statement asking why one automatically assumes DeRosa instantly gets the job at 2b over Theriot-if Theriot is forced from short that is-without competiton during spring training.

 

Your little world is going to be rocked if they acquire ARod or Renteria. DeRosa is starting somewhere. That might be at 2B (where he should start). But if management irrationally decided that Theriot should play 2B every day, guess where Derosa is going to play?

 

Poor Murton fan. Ultimately, this is going to be a choice between Theriot and Murton. Who will you root for? Man Crush #1 or Man Crush #2?

LOL. POTY.