Bonds Hits 755 in 2nd Inning

[OleMissCub]

If you really don't think pitchers throw harder today you are living in a dream land, there is no question about it. They also throw a lot more breaking stuff, fastball/changeup was the name of the game back in the day, there was nowhere near the amount of nasty sliders etc.

.

 

I never said that on average they don't. But to act like they just threw the ball up there like you or I would means that you are living in a dreamland.

[Guest]

 

On another point: How many of your high school teammates knew how to throw a slider? How many pitchers that faced Ruth knew how? Saying that kids today don't have any special training or knowledge compared to people nearly 100 years ago sounds good, but really isn't true. Not to mention nutrition, training, etc.

 

Perhaps my highschool team was the exception, given that we won the 5A state champ. 2 years in a row, but we had guys who had a full arsenal of pitches.

 

Besides, pitchers back then threw all kinds of junk up there and were even allowed to doctor the ball with grease, oil, whatever.

 

Look, all I'm saying is that they didn't lob the ball up there. They had to have thrown at least as hard as good high school pitchers today, if not harder. People didn't just walk up to the stadium and say "hey, I wanna be a pitcher." They had minor leagues back then and you had to work your way up. Thus, if you made it to the bigs you had some talent.

Yes, but you act as if the scrub pitchers in the league in the '20's threw in the 90's like they do today. Heck, scrub pitchers in the '80's didn't throw this fast.

 

My firm belief is that the top of the talent pyramid has been similar throughout the history of the game (but better today as a whole because of a larger selection process). But I think if you took the scrub players of today and matched them up against the scrub players of any other era it would be a walkover victory for the players of today.

 

The talent pyramid is everything in this conversation.

[OleMissCub]

No doubt that was the prime factor. But it was really not until the very late 1920's that there was any other hitter that consistently topped 25 home runs. I think it is fair to say that Ruth's power took a while to replicate even with the tighter-wound ball.

 

Cobb would have told you that his seeming lack of power was because he didn't want to hit home runs. He thought it was a coward's way to score runs. To prove that point to the media, when he was 38 and playing against Ruth's Yankees near the end of his career, he hit 5 home runs in 2 days.

 

Although it would be silly to try and say that Cobb or any other person back then had the power swing that Ruth had.

[Guest]

No doubt that was the prime factor. But it was really not until the very late 1920's that there was any other hitter that consistently topped 25 home runs. I think it is fair to say that Ruth's power took a while to replicate even with the tighter-wound ball.

 

Cobb would have told you that his seeming lack of power was because he didn't want to hit home runs. He thought it was a coward's way to score runs. To prove that point to the media, when he was 38 and playing against Ruth's Yankees near the end of his career, he hit 5 home runs in 2 days.

 

Although it would be silly to try and say that Cobb or any other person back then had the power swing that Ruth had.

Then Cobb was a freaking idiot, wasn't he?

[Productive Outs]

No doubt that was the prime factor. But it was really not until the very late 1920's that there was any other hitter that consistently topped 25 home runs. I think it is fair to say that Ruth's power took a while to replicate even with the tighter-wound ball.

 

Cobb would have told you that his seeming lack of power was because he didn't want to hit home runs. He thought it was a coward's way to score runs. To prove that point to the media, when he was 38 and playing against Ruth's Yankees near the end of his career, he hit 5 home runs in 2 days.

 

Although it would be silly to try and say that Cobb or any other person back then had the power swing that Ruth had.

Then Cobb was a freaking idiot, wasn't he?

 

yeah, i've heard this before from OMC, and it just really shows how stupid cobb was. so stupid, in fact, that i think he simply got lucky after he said that.

[OleMissCub]

Yes, but you act as if the scrub pitchers in the league in the '20's threw in the 90's like they do today. Heck, scrub pitchers in the '80's didn't throw this fast.

 

I never said the average pitcher was able to throw 90's. Maybe I communicated that poorly. My point is that they didn't just lob the ball up there and that even the scrubs back then had to have thrown at least as hard as a decent high school pitcher today, which is low to mid 80's.

 

 

My firm belief is that the top of the talent pyramid has been similar throughout the history of the game (but better today as a whole because of a larger selection process). But I think if you took the scrub players of today and matched them up against the scrub players of any other era it would be a walkover victory for the players of today.

 

The talent pyramid is everything in this conversation.

 

No argument here. The talent pool is much greater with the inclusion of black players and other nationalities.

[Flames24Rulz]

No doubt that was the prime factor. But it was really not until the very late 1920's that there was any other hitter that consistently topped 25 home runs. I think it is fair to say that Ruth's power took a while to replicate even with the tighter-wound ball.

 

Cobb would have told you that his seeming lack of power was because he didn't want to hit home runs. He thought it was a coward's way to score runs. To prove that point to the media, when he was 38 and playing against Ruth's Yankees near the end of his career, he hit 5 home runs in 2 days.

 

Although it would be silly to try and say that Cobb or any other person back then had the power swing that Ruth had.

Then Cobb was a freaking idiot, wasn't he?

 

In more ways than one. I never had heard of that story before, but the guy obviously didn't have a bright mind if he didn't want to hit homers when he had the ability to.

[Ender]

No doubt that was the prime factor. But it was really not until the very late 1920's that there was any other hitter that consistently topped 25 home runs. I think it is fair to say that Ruth's power took a while to replicate even with the tighter-wound ball.

 

Cobb would have told you that his seeming lack of power was because he didn't want to hit home runs. He thought it was a coward's way to score runs. To prove that point to the media, when he was 38 and playing against Ruth's Yankees near the end of his career, he hit 5 home runs in 2 days.

 

Although it would be silly to try and say that Cobb or any other person back then had the power swing that Ruth had.

 

Thats what Suzuki says too, of course he couldn't hit 40 HR's like he seems to think he could, its pretty easy to make bold statements when you don't even try to back them up.

[OleMissCub]

 

yeah, i've heard this before from OMC, and it just really shows how stupid cobb was. so stupid, in fact, that i think he simply got lucky after he said that.

 

The sub-300ft right field fence at Yankee Stadium back then certainly didn't hurt. :-)

 

But I don't think it was luck, I think he was trying to hit the ball out to try and show Ruth up in his own house. That first game he went 6-6 with 3hr, 2 doubles, and a single. The next day he added on another 2hr and a double.

 

And don't say the guy was stupid, because he wasn't. He was characterized by many in his day to be bookish and a bit nerdy for a ballplayer. He was always reading the classics and studying history and politics and was smart enough out of highschool that he got an appointment to West Point and was also urged to go to Med School or Law School. He wasn't a backwaters idiot like Joe Jackson; Cobb's father was a Senator.

[Guest]

 

yeah, i've heard this before from OMC, and it just really shows how stupid cobb was. so stupid, in fact, that i think he simply got lucky after he said that.

 

The sub-300ft right field fence at Yankee Stadium back then certainly didn't hurt. :-)

 

But I don't think it was luck, I think he was trying to hit the ball out to try and show Ruth up in his own house. That first game he went 6-6 with 3hr, 2 doubles, and a single. The next day he added on another 2hr and a double.

 

And don't say the guy was stupid, because he wasn't. He was characterized by many in his day to be bookish and a bit nerdy for a ballplayer. He was always reading the classics and studying history and politics and was smart enough out of highschool that he got an appointment to West Point and was also urged to go to Med School or Law School. He wasn't a backwaters idiot like Joe Jackson; Cobb's father was a Senator.

Funny how when you were talking about ballplayers coming from all walks of life it was "Cobb came from the backwoods".

 

He may have been plenty smart, but if he could have hit more home runs as he and you imply and chose not to...he was not an intelligent ballplayer.

[Roast]

 

yeah, i've heard this before from OMC, and it just really shows how stupid cobb was. so stupid, in fact, that i think he simply got lucky after he said that.

 

The sub-300ft right field fence at Yankee Stadium back then certainly didn't hurt. :-)

 

But I don't think it was luck, I think he was trying to hit the ball out to try and show Ruth up in his own house. That first game he went 6-6 with 3hr, 2 doubles, and a single. The next day he added on another 2hr and a double.

 

And don't say the guy was stupid, because he wasn't. He was characterized by many in his day to be bookish and a bit nerdy for a ballplayer. He was always reading the classics and studying history and politics and was smart enough out of highschool that he got an appointment to West Point and was also urged to go to Med School or Law School. He wasn't a backwaters idiot like Joe Jackson; Cobb's father was a Senator.

 

Yeah, he said later in life he always regretted not going go college and becoming a doctor.

[OleMissCub]

In more ways than one. I never had heard of that story before, but the guy obviously didn't have a bright mind if he didn't want to hit homers when he had the ability to.

 

That wasn't how he wanted to play baseball. He thought he had a better chance to get on base and thus help his team if he played the way that he knew best, which was slapping the ball to all fields i.e. Ichiro.

[imb]

In more ways than one. I never had heard of that story before, but the guy obviously didn't have a bright mind if he didn't want to hit homers when he had the ability to.

 

That wasn't how he wanted to play baseball. He thought he had a better chance to get on base and thus help his team if he played the way that he knew best, which was slapping the ball to all fields i.e. Ichiro.

 

He was wrong, then.

[Guest]

In more ways than one. I never had heard of that story before, but the guy obviously didn't have a bright mind if he didn't want to hit homers when he had the ability to.

 

That wasn't how he wanted to play baseball. He thought he had a better chance to get on base and thus help his team if he played the way that he knew best, which was slapping the ball to all fields i.e. Ichiro.

 

He was wrong, then.

Unless, of course, he really couldn't hit home runs at will.

 

I really wonder if that story is apocryphal.

[OleMissCub]

Funny how when you were talking about ballplayers coming from all walks of life it was "Cobb came from the backwoods".

 

He DID come from the backwoods. When he was born his father was a traveling teacher going from backwater town to backwater town teaching the locals.

 

He may have been plenty smart, but if he could have hit more home runs as he and you imply and chose not to...he was not an intelligent ballplayer.

 

1) I never implied that he had the ability to constantly hit homers....recall when I said that the 300ft fence at Yankee Stadium certainly helped. *wink wink*

 

2) By all accounts he's considered to be one of the smartest ballplayers that ever played the game. He wasn't a tremendously gifted athlete, but he was able to out think his opponents constantly, especially when it came to hitting and running the basepaths. If you'd ever read about him, you'd realize that 90 percent of what made him great was how much a student he was of the game, etc.

[OleMissCub]

I really wonder if that story is apocryphal.

 

May 5th, 1925: 6-6, 3 homers. It set a record for total bases in a game that stood for a long, long time.

Edited August 5, 2007 by OleMissCub

[OleMissCub]

In more ways than one. I never had heard of that story before, but the guy obviously didn't have a bright mind if he didn't want to hit homers when he had the ability to.

 

That wasn't how he wanted to play baseball. He thought he had a better chance to get on base and thus help his team if he played the way that he knew best, which was slapping the ball to all fields i.e. Ichiro.

 

He was wrong, then.

 

Or maybe he realized that he didn't have home run power and felt it was a better use of his abilities to play his style of ball. His career OBP of .433 isn't too shabby.

 

His statements concerning Ruth were probably more to do with his insecurity at no longer being THE star of the league moreso than some nostalgic longing for small ball. The guy had quite the ego.

[soccer10k]

In more ways than one. I never had heard of that story before, but the guy obviously didn't have a bright mind if he didn't want to hit homers when he had the ability to.

 

That wasn't how he wanted to play baseball. He thought he had a better chance to get on base and thus help his team if he played the way that he knew best, which was slapping the ball to all fields i.e. Ichiro.

 

He was wrong, then.

 

Why is he wrong? It's obviously better to get on base as much as possible so if Cobb thought he could get on base more often by hitting to all fields rather than swinging for the fences, shouldn't that be a good thing?

[Derwood]

In more ways than one. I never had heard of that story before, but the guy obviously didn't have a bright mind if he didn't want to hit homers when he had the ability to.

 

That wasn't how he wanted to play baseball. He thought he had a better chance to get on base and thus help his team if he played the way that he knew best, which was slapping the ball to all fields i.e. Ichiro.

 

He was wrong, then.

 

Why is he wrong? It's obviously better to get on base as much as possible so if Cobb thought he could get on base more often by hitting to all fields rather than swinging for the fences, shouldn't that be a good thing?

 

the best result of any at-bat in any situation is a HR

 

 

also (and I've made this point to OMC before), not only was the talent pool restricted to white players, but there also wasn't the financial reward for the elite athletes to become pro baseball players. If you were really good at baseball but could become a doctor, lawyer or business owner, your best option (financially) would be the latter. Today, there is no question which path you would try, as the financial gains as a pro baseball player are multiple times higher than most other occupations

[erik316wttn]

Those of you saying that pitchers are better today are forgetting it works both ways.

 

Yes, pitchers could see film of hitters and have access to better medical care and better conditioning programs, etc, but that would be true for hitters, too. They would have film of opposing pitchers, etc. It's not like one side has a huge advantage over the other one.

 

All things considered, Ruth would still be a superstar today.

[OleMissCub]

 

the best result of any at-bat in any situation is a HR

 

Cobb got a hit 36% of the times he stepped to the plate during his career. Even the best home run hitters of all time only get a home run in 1 of every 11-12 AB's.

 

If he didn't have a home run stroke to begin with, how can you fault a guy for not trying to hit home runs when he's able to get a hit so frequently. I wish the Cubs had a guy who could hit .370 and steal 60 bases.

[Derwood]

 

the best result of any at-bat in any situation is a HR

 

Cobb got a hit 36% of the times he stepped to the plate during his career. Even the best home run hitters of all time only get a home run in 1 of every 11-12 AB's.

 

If he didn't have a home run stroke to begin with, how can you fault a guy for not trying to hit home runs when he's able to get a hit so frequently. I wish the Cubs had a guy who could hit .370 and steal 60 bases.

 

but if he COULD hit HR's and chose not to, that's bad baseball

[OleMissCub]

 

but if he COULD hit HR's and chose not to, that's bad baseball

 

He claimed that he could, but like I said, that was probably just his ego and insecurity talking. He was getting older and the new man on town was the Babe.

[Illini Iceman]

 

the best result of any at-bat in any situation is a HR

 

Cobb got a hit 36% of the times he stepped to the plate during his career. Even the best home run hitters of all time only get a home run in 1 of every 11-12 AB's.

 

If he didn't have a home run stroke to begin with, how can you fault a guy for not trying to hit home runs when he's able to get a hit so frequently. I wish the Cubs had a guy who could hit .370 and steal 60 bases.

 

but if he COULD hit HR's and chose not to, that's bad baseball

 

That's why Dave Kingman was the smartest player that ever lived, right? He knew he could hit HR's and the best result of any at bat is a HR so he just swung for the fences every time up.

[imb]

Those of you saying that pitchers are better today are forgetting it works both ways.

 

Yes, pitchers could see film of hitters and have access to better medical care and better conditioning programs, etc, but that would be true for hitters, too. They would have film of opposing pitchers, etc. It's not like one side has a huge advantage over the other one.

 

All things considered, Ruth would still be a superstar today.

 

Ruth would see one 95mph split-finger and drink himself into oblivion.