Will JH get an "impact" player this trade deadline

[moorecg]

Marshall + Murton for Junior?

 

Is Junior really worth a solid young ML starter and a very solid AAA prospect? I'm not sure I'd want to give that for Junior...who'd be the 5th starter?

[dew1679666265]

Marshall + Murton for Junior?

 

Is Junior really worth a solid young ML starter and a very solid AAA prospect? I'm not sure I'd want to give that for Junior...who'd be the 5th starter?

 

I'd pull for Guzman or Gallagher. But Lou might go with Dempster.

 

On second thought, I have to wonder if Lou wouldn't have second thoughts about Dempster to the rotation. He hasn't actually shown a lot of faith in the rest of the bullpen to close out games (using Ohman/Howry/Marmol in situational spots).

 

A third option would be a trade, though that'd be less likely if we pick up Junior's salary.

[JWCUB]

I would be happy with Gagne, a catcher that can hit, and dumping Jones, Izzy, and Eyre. I know, I know, a lot easier said than done. Getting Jr. would be a HUGE bonus, but I don't really see the Reds trading him.

[Friendly Confines]

http://images.tsn.ca/images/stories/20040402/hendry_49108.jpg

 

I dislike this man

[Bergy92]

 

Marshall + Murton for Junior?

 

No possible way should we trade Marshall + Murton for Junior - that would just be ludicrous...

[Soul]

All of this brings one thing to my mind: solid, productive farm systems are a good thing. Wish we had one.

 

Ding, you win

 

I think it's in a little better shape than you are making it out to be.

 

No...it's not. It's pathetic.

 

Agreed.

Seems terrible to me, position-player wise. All we have to show for ourselves at the moment are a couple of admittedly eager college prospects with pretty low ceilings and another "toolsy" CF who is, not suprisingly, floudering at the plate. Others we have recently tried out, such as Cedeno & Murton, seem to be close to tanking.

 

And it's been this way for 20 years.

 

I don't see how it could be classified as anything else other than bad. I look across the Illinois/Wisconsin border, and I see a farm system up there that makes us look like idiots.

[CubColtPacer]

All of this brings one thing to my mind: solid, productive farm systems are a good thing. Wish we had one.

 

Ding, you win

 

I think it's in a little better shape than you are making it out to be.

 

No...it's not. It's pathetic.

 

Agreed.

Seems terrible to me, position-player wise. All we have to show for ourselves at the moment are a couple of admittedly eager college prospects with pretty low ceilings and another "toolsy" CF who is, not suprisingly, floudering at the plate. Others we have recently tried out, such as Cedeno & Murton, seem to be close to tanking.

 

And it's been this way for 20 years.

 

I don't see how it could be classified as anything else other than bad. I look across the Illinois/Wisconsin border, and I see a farm system up there that makes us look like idiots.

 

While I won't argue the Cubs have been better at developing players than the Brewers have (because I don't believe they have) looking at position players only obscures your point. In pitchers, the Cubs have a key advantage. Z, Hill and Marshall in the rotation plus Wuertz, Marmol, Ohman, and Gallagher/Petrick in the bullpen compared to Sheets and Gallardo for Milwaukee. That still doesn't make up for the Brewers advantage in position prospects, but it makes up ground (and a large part of the remaining difference has been problems with injuries for the Cubs-Patterson, Wood, Prior, and Guzman having major injuries really hurt the farm system record of success)

[killthegoat06]

Bruce Miles' latest article.

 

Cubs will spend $$$ on talent to stay in playoff race

 

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/beatwriters.asp?column=miles&id=329071

 

 

Look for them to be buyers as the July 31 non-waiver trading deadline nears.

Very good to hear. Thanks Bruce.

 

 

Hendry will have to dump Jones soon to keep everybody happy. The three-year, $16 million deal was a bad contract to begin with, and it’s going to taste bad when Hendry has to eat it, no matter how much ketchup he puts on it.

 

The moral of the story: If you’re looking for middling talent, you can find it a whole lot cheaper. Cubs fans should hope that lesson sticks if Hendry stays as Cubs GM.

 

 

More good news.

 

 

AS for Izturis and Cedeno,]

 

Hendry traded Greg Maddux for Izturis. He’ll have to dump Izturis for next to nothing this summer. When the Cubs do trade Izturis, that’ll clear the way for Ronny Cedeno’s return from Class AAA Iowa, where he’s tearing it up. Maybe Cedeno has put together the mental and physical aspects of the game.

 

 

No mention of Eyre, though.

 

 

The bad news:

 

That will allow the Cubs to grant Ryan Dempster his wish to be a starter again next year, or it will enable Hendry to trade Dempster

 

2nd option much better than 1st, imo, although I like Demp as our current closer.

Edited July 6, 2007 by killthegoat06

[Soul]

All of this brings one thing to my mind: solid, productive farm systems are a good thing. Wish we had one.

 

Ding, you win

 

I think it's in a little better shape than you are making it out to be.

 

No...it's not. It's pathetic.

 

Agreed.

Seems terrible to me, position-player wise. All we have to show for ourselves at the moment are a couple of admittedly eager college prospects with pretty low ceilings and another "toolsy" CF who is, not suprisingly, floudering at the plate. Others we have recently tried out, such as Cedeno & Murton, seem to be close to tanking.

 

And it's been this way for 20 years.

 

I don't see how it could be classified as anything else other than bad. I look across the Illinois/Wisconsin border, and I see a farm system up there that makes us look like idiots.

 

While I won't argue the Cubs have been better at developing players than the Brewers have (because I don't believe they have) looking at position players only obscures your point. In pitchers, the Cubs have a key advantage. Z, Hill and Marshall in the rotation plus Wuertz, Marmol, Ohman, and Gallagher/Petrick in the bullpen compared to Sheets and Gallardo for Milwaukee. That still doesn't make up for the Brewers advantage in position prospects, but it makes up ground (and a large part of the remaining difference has been problems with injuries for the Cubs-Patterson, Wood, Prior, and Guzman having major injuries really hurt the farm system record of success)

 

I'd sacrifice a few of our arms for positional talent, becuase arms tend to have a much shorter shelf life even if they prove out at the majors, due to increased possibility for injury. A little balance would be nice rather than simply developing pitchers and being absolutely horrid at everything else.

 

Also, you're painting a pretty rosy picture here. CPatt didn't pan out because of injury? You can't be serious. He didn't pan out because he's clueless at the plate and has one of the worst swings I've ever seen (developed by the Cubs). He would have failed regardless of his injury in '03 because his plate talents are far too low to succeed for more than a short stretch.

 

Also let's not just talk about right now. Let's talk about the last 20 years or more. Since Grace, not 1 bona-fide talented hitter developed by the Cubs. Even Grace is arguable -- he probably benefitted from being a maverick and knowing when to ignore bad coaching than anything else. If we don't stop at Grace, then we're looking at a black-hole abyss of minor league development that probably goes all the way back to Santo.

[CubColtPacer]

All of this brings one thing to my mind: solid, productive farm systems are a good thing. Wish we had one.

 

Ding, you win

 

I think it's in a little better shape than you are making it out to be.

 

No...it's not. It's pathetic.

 

Agreed.

Seems terrible to me, position-player wise. All we have to show for ourselves at the moment are a couple of admittedly eager college prospects with pretty low ceilings and another "toolsy" CF who is, not suprisingly, floudering at the plate. Others we have recently tried out, such as Cedeno & Murton, seem to be close to tanking.

 

And it's been this way for 20 years.

 

I don't see how it could be classified as anything else other than bad. I look across the Illinois/Wisconsin border, and I see a farm system up there that makes us look like idiots.

 

While I won't argue the Cubs have been better at developing players than the Brewers have (because I don't believe they have) looking at position players only obscures your point. In pitchers, the Cubs have a key advantage. Z, Hill and Marshall in the rotation plus Wuertz, Marmol, Ohman, and Gallagher/Petrick in the bullpen compared to Sheets and Gallardo for Milwaukee. That still doesn't make up for the Brewers advantage in position prospects, but it makes up ground (and a large part of the remaining difference has been problems with injuries for the Cubs-Patterson, Wood, Prior, and Guzman having major injuries really hurt the farm system record of success)

 

I'd sacrifice a few of our arms for positional talent, becuase arms tend to have a much shorter shelf life even if they prove out at the majors, due to increased possibility for injury. A little balance would be nice rather than simply developing pitchers and being absolutely horrid at everything else.

 

Also, you're painting a pretty rosy picture here. CPatt didn't pan out because of injury? You can't be serious. He didn't pan out because he's clueless at the plate and has one of the worst swings I've ever seen (developed by the Cubs). He would have failed regardless of his injury in '03 because his plate talents are far too low to succeed for more than a short stretch.

 

Also let's not just talk about right now. Let's talk about the last 20 years or more. Since Grace, not 1 bona-fide talented hitter developed by the Cubs. Even Grace is arguable -- he probably benefitted from being a maverick and knowing when to ignore bad coaching than anything else. If we don't stop at Grace, then we're looking at a black-hole abyss of minor league development that probably goes all the way back to Santo.

 

I don't think 20 years ago has much bearing on the discussion. Sure, it might be frustrating for Cubs fans who want to put a pattern together, but it's completely different management, different coaches, and different players. To evaluate the current version based on what past versions did is unfair.

 

With that said, this current version better hope that some of their positional prospects work out soon. Out of Pie, Soto, Cedeno, and Colvin, two of them at least better be average major league players when all is said and done.

[JonnyRed]

I'd be surprised if Bud Selig lets the Cubs make a trade that will take on more salary.

 

I just don't get this reasoning. Whoever buys the Cubs will likely pay upwards of $800 million. Do you (or Bud) really think they will care about adding say $10M more to the payroll if it brings the Cubs a trip to the playoffs? Which, btw, would pay off much more favorably anyways.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

In Buster Olney's blog today (Link), he talks about how horrible the trade market is.

 

The cost of veterans has spiraled upward, and simultaneously, their trade value has plummeted -- while the trade value of young players has climbed dramatically. Those factors, plus baseball's improved parity, have dramatically reduced the swap talks we usually get this time of year. "There's just not that much going on," said one NL general manager. "Maybe some stuff will happen after the All-Star break. Maybe not."

 

But the trade market is absorbing another body blow, as well. Many of the guys who would have been the subject of conversations between teams have been taken down by injury.

 

It's going to be tough to make a good deal this year.

[inari]

In Buster Olney's blog today (Link), he talks about how horrible the trade market is.

 

The cost of veterans has spiraled upward, and simultaneously, their trade value has plummeted -- while the trade value of young players has climbed dramatically. Those factors, plus baseball's improved parity, have dramatically reduced the swap talks we usually get this time of year. "There's just not that much going on," said one NL general manager. "Maybe some stuff will happen after the All-Star break. Maybe not."

 

But the trade market is absorbing another body blow, as well. Many of the guys who would have been the subject of conversations between teams have been taken down by injury.

 

It's going to be tough to make a good deal this year.

 

If we can't get Dunn or Griffey for a reasonable price, I'm not sure there's anyone out there worth having. There's certainly not gonna be another Nomar deal this year. I'm not even sure there's going to be another Matt Lawton.

[UBlink]

In Buster Olney's blog today (Link), he talks about how horrible the trade market is.

 

The cost of veterans has spiraled upward, and simultaneously, their trade value has plummeted -- while the trade value of young players has climbed dramatically. Those factors, plus baseball's improved parity, have dramatically reduced the swap talks we usually get this time of year. "There's just not that much going on," said one NL general manager. "Maybe some stuff will happen after the All-Star break. Maybe not."

 

But the trade market is absorbing another body blow, as well. Many of the guys who would have been the subject of conversations between teams have been taken down by injury.

 

It's going to be tough to make a good deal this year.

 

It sounds like the only way you get a good deal is by buying big contract veterans and selling low cost young players.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

In Buster Olney's blog today (Link), he talks about how horrible the trade market is.

 

The cost of veterans has spiraled upward, and simultaneously, their trade value has plummeted -- while the trade value of young players has climbed dramatically. Those factors, plus baseball's improved parity, have dramatically reduced the swap talks we usually get this time of year. "There's just not that much going on," said one NL general manager. "Maybe some stuff will happen after the All-Star break. Maybe not."

 

But the trade market is absorbing another body blow, as well. Many of the guys who would have been the subject of conversations between teams have been taken down by injury.

 

It's going to be tough to make a good deal this year.

 

It sounds like the only way you get a good deal is by buying big contract veterans and selling low cost young players.

 

That's it. Teams will trade a high priced vet, but for the better players teams are wanting major league ready young players and are less willing to take on prospects.

 

It makes the market extremely difficult.

[nilodnayr]

All of this brings one thing to my mind: solid, productive farm systems are a good thing. Wish we had one.

 

Ding, you win

 

I think it's in a little better shape than you are making it out to be.

 

No...it's not. It's pathetic.

 

Agreed.

Seems terrible to me, position-player wise. All we have to show for ourselves at the moment are a couple of admittedly eager college prospects with pretty low ceilings and another "toolsy" CF who is, not suprisingly, floudering at the plate. Others we have recently tried out, such as Cedeno & Murton, seem to be close to tanking.

 

And it's been this way for 20 years.

 

I don't see how it could be classified as anything else other than bad. I look across the Illinois/Wisconsin border, and I see a farm system up there that makes us look like idiots.

 

While I won't argue the Cubs have been better at developing players than the Brewers have (because I don't believe they have) looking at position players only obscures your point. In pitchers, the Cubs have a key advantage. Z, Hill and Marshall in the rotation plus Wuertz, Marmol, Ohman, and Gallagher/Petrick in the bullpen compared to Sheets and Gallardo for Milwaukee. That still doesn't make up for the Brewers advantage in position prospects, but it makes up ground (and a large part of the remaining difference has been problems with injuries for the Cubs-Patterson, Wood, Prior, and Guzman having major injuries really hurt the farm system record of success)

 

Carlos Villanueva?

 

And the big difference between the two has been sell high trading vs sell low trading.

 

Acquiring Jorge De La Rosa, Chris Capuano, Chad Moeller, Lyle Overbay, Craig Counsell and Junior Spivey for Sexson, then flipping Overbay for Dave Bush, Gabe Gross and flipping Spivey for Ohka. Also Davis for Vargas and Estrada. A lot of those guys aren't rocking the world, but they are providing good solid production for guys who were close to their walk years.

[CubColtPacer]

All of this brings one thing to my mind: solid, productive farm systems are a good thing. Wish we had one.

 

Ding, you win

 

I think it's in a little better shape than you are making it out to be.

 

No...it's not. It's pathetic.

 

Agreed.

Seems terrible to me, position-player wise. All we have to show for ourselves at the moment are a couple of admittedly eager college prospects with pretty low ceilings and another "toolsy" CF who is, not suprisingly, floudering at the plate. Others we have recently tried out, such as Cedeno & Murton, seem to be close to tanking.

 

And it's been this way for 20 years.

 

I don't see how it could be classified as anything else other than bad. I look across the Illinois/Wisconsin border, and I see a farm system up there that makes us look like idiots.

 

While I won't argue the Cubs have been better at developing players than the Brewers have (because I don't believe they have) looking at position players only obscures your point. In pitchers, the Cubs have a key advantage. Z, Hill and Marshall in the rotation plus Wuertz, Marmol, Ohman, and Gallagher/Petrick in the bullpen compared to Sheets and Gallardo for Milwaukee. That still doesn't make up for the Brewers advantage in position prospects, but it makes up ground (and a large part of the remaining difference has been problems with injuries for the Cubs-Patterson, Wood, Prior, and Guzman having major injuries really hurt the farm system record of success)

 

Carlos Villanueva?

 

And the big difference between the two has been sell high trading vs sell low trading.

 

Acquiring Jorge De La Rosa, Chris Capuano, Chad Moeller, Lyle Overbay, Craig Counsell and Junior Spivey for Sexson, then flipping Overbay for Dave Bush, Gabe Gross and flipping Spivey for Ohka. Also Davis for Vargas and Estrada. A lot of those guys aren't rocking the world, but they are providing good solid production for guys who were close to their walk years.

 

I didn't include Villanueva because he came in through a trade from the Giants, and I was only including players who came up completely through the system.

 

None of those trades you just included involved anybody from the Brewers farm system, which is what we were discussing. If you do want to include trades though, the Cubs farm system also netted them Lee, Ramirez, and Murton. I'm not sure what actual trades that involved Brewers that came up all the way through their system gave them.

[davearm]

In Buster Olney's blog today (Link), he talks about how horrible the trade market is.

 

The cost of veterans has spiraled upward, and simultaneously, their trade value has plummeted -- while the trade value of young players has climbed dramatically. Those factors, plus baseball's improved parity, have dramatically reduced the swap talks we usually get this time of year. "There's just not that much going on," said one NL general manager. "Maybe some stuff will happen after the All-Star break. Maybe not."

 

But the trade market is absorbing another body blow, as well. Many of the guys who would have been the subject of conversations between teams have been taken down by injury.

 

It's going to be tough to make a good deal this year.

Funny, I had the opposite reaction.

 

Olney says the trade value of veterans has plummeted, while the trade value for young players has climbed dramatically -- sounds to me like a buyer's market for veterans, wherein your young players can buy you a lot.