OFers potentially available at deadline

[RichHillIsABeast]

Willy Mo Pena is an interesting idea. It would help if Drew could get hot because if I'm not mistaken they have been back and forth with Drew and Pena in RF.

 

I'm not scared about him being a butcher in RF, because I experienced the 2006 Jacque Jones and lived to talk about it.

 

OF defense would be a disaster, but a platoon of Pena/Floyd could really put up some power numbers.

 

Floyd is already being platooned.....and he's not shown any power whatsoever.

 

He had a warning track flyout to straightaway center in PETCO.

[Mephistopheles]

somebody actually wants freddy guzman? hes an exact clone of freddy bynum.

[tkenm356]

somebody actually wants freddy guzman? hes an exact clone of freddy bynum.

 

Gee, sorry I brought it up. If he sucks so much dong then why don't we send them a Crappy McCrapstein in return and see how it pans out? I'd also like to kno exactly how everyone seems to know just how bad he is when he's got only 83Ab in his major league career, did we track him in the minor system, did we watch his games, did we see him suck? Or are you just going off numbers? Cause the numbers I see are a lot better than some of the crap we send out there every day

[Drew Doughty]

somebody actually wants freddy guzman? hes an exact clone of freddy bynum.

 

Gee, sorry I brought it up. If he sucks so much dong then why don't we send them a Crappy McCrapstein in return and see how it pans out? I'd also like to kno exactly how everyone seems to know just how bad he is when he's got only 83Ab in his major league career, did we track him in the minor system, did we watch his games, did we see him suck? Or are you just going off numbers? Cause the numbers I see are a lot better than some of the crap we send out there every day

 

huh? his 722 career MiL OPS is tied with or trailing 5 OFs currently on the team. and those are minor league numbers.

[tkenm356]

For years everyone has been barking we need a lead-off guy who has a good OBP and can get on base, draw a walk, etc. This guy can do that, and he can swipe bases like nobodies business. And yet the biggest complaint people are putting on here is his OPS and SLG isn't good, or he doesn't get enough XBH, or he has no power. Yet, everyone complains that Soriano shouldn't be hitting out of the lead-off spot because his power is better suited out of the 3, 4, or 5 hole, but when I bring up the idea of putting a lead-off type hitter in the lead-off spot, automatically it's a bad idea cause he doesn't hit for good slugging.

 

Let's compare Ichiro, whom everyone thinks we should go after, with Guzman's 2006 milb numbers with the pace he was on if he got the same amount of AB as Ichiro (695) during his longest stint in Oklahoma

 

Ichiro Suzuki had

224H 20-2B 9-3B 9HR 49RBI 45SB 49BB

 

Guzman's pace for 695AB would've roughly been around:

190H 25-2B 6-3B 3HR 38RBI 82SB 92BB

 

I'm not going to argue that Ichiro is a worse hitter than Guzman, cause he isn't, he's a much better hitter. But Guzman can draw lots and lots of walks and steal lots and lots of bases (if we took his numbers from his '04 stint in Portland he'd have nearly 100SB and a little over 80BB). While his AVG wouldn't have been anything stellar (roughly between .275-.285), his OBP would've still been around .370. Now if anyone can refresh my memory of the last time we had a lead-off hitter with over a .350OBP that'd be lovely.

 

I'm not saying he's gonna be the savior of the team, I'm just saying I don't think it'll hurt to have the guy in our farm system, especially if he's so easily attainable we should be able to get him for next to nothing, or if we go after Tex or Sosa like others seem to be interested in, I see no harm in trying to have him thrown in the deal.

 

huh? his 722 career MiL OPS is tied with or trailing 5 OFs currently on the team. and those are minor league numbers.

 

We have one every day OF'er, Soriano, and his OPS is .833. Pagan's is over .990 but we all know that won't stick. Murton's is at .737, Floyd at .722, Jones at .640. I'd much rather have the unproven Guzman over Jones, he of the .298OBP and .248AVG

[Transmogrified Tiger]

This is mind bending. I don't want Soriano moved from the leadoff spot, and I don't want Ichiro(who may be the most overrated player in the game), especially at his cost in dollars and players.

 

Guzman is not good. I don't know why you've latched on to this, you've typically made much better arguments. Your assumption that a 25 year old's AAA numbers(in his second attempt at AAA nonetheless) will even roughly translate well to the major league level is simply wrong. Look at the names brought up earlier, Bynum and Macias. Both those guys have similar skillsets to Guzman, they are small switch hitters that take a walk that didn't make it to the high minors until their mid 20's. They don't hit for extra bases, and they don't strike out very often, both a likely side effect of slapping the ball around. Their skillset and age don't translate to the major league level.

 

Bynum Minors: .275 AVG, .347 OBP, .072 IsoD

Bynum Majors: .259/.307, .048 IsoD

 

Macias Minors: .270/.365, .095 IsoD

Macias Majors: .256/.298, .042 IsoD

 

Guzman Minors: .280/.359, .079 IsoD

Guzman Majors: .217/.270, .053 IsoD

 

These are not coincidences.

[Drew Doughty]

For years everyone has been barking we need a lead-off guy who has a good OBP and can get on base, draw a walk, etc. This guy can do that, and he can swipe bases like nobodies business. And yet the biggest complaint people are putting on here is his OPS and SLG isn't good, or he doesn't get enough XBH, or he has no power. Yet, everyone complains that Soriano shouldn't be hitting out of the lead-off spot because his power is better suited out of the 3, 4, or 5 hole, but when I bring up the idea of putting a lead-off type hitter in the lead-off spot, automatically it's a bad idea cause he doesn't hit for good slugging.

 

I want everyone on my team to have a good OBP, but it usually starts with the lead-off hitter because he's going to get the most chances to get on base. I don't want Soriano moved from the lead-off spot.

 

Let's compare Ichiro, whom everyone thinks we should go after, with Guzman's 2006 milb numbers with the pace he was on if he got the same amount of AB as Ichiro (695) during his longest stint in Oklahoma

 

this doesn't make any sense. you're taking a limited minor league sample size and comparing it to major league stats.

 

I'm not going to argue that Ichiro is a worse hitter than Guzman, cause he isn't, he's a much better hitter. But Guzman can draw lots and lots of walks and steal lots and lots of bases (if we took his numbers from his '04 stint in Portland he'd have nearly 100SB and a little over 80BB). While his AVG wouldn't have been anything stellar (roughly between .275-.285), his OBP would've still been around .370. Now if anyone can refresh my memory of the last time we had a lead-off hitter with over a .350OBP that'd be lovely.

 

Guzman can draw lots of walks in the minors. When he was given a shot (very, very limited sample size) in the majors, he drew 3 walks and had 76 ABs. Given his age, he looks like a AAAA player (DIE HARD!). Also, Soriano currently has a .352 OBP, so....right now. I think Theriot was sitting around 360 when he was leading off, as well.

 

 

I'm not saying he's gonna be the savior of the team, I'm just saying I don't think it'll hurt to have the guy in our farm system, especially if he's so easily attainable we should be able to get him for next to nothing, or if we go after Tex or Sosa like others seem to be interested in, I see no harm in trying to have him thrown in the deal.

 

Seemed like you were clamoring for him to be on the team and leading off, but whatever. I guess it can't do any harm to have him in the system.

 

We have one every day OF'er, Soriano, and his OPS is .833. Pagan's is over .990 but we all know that won't stick. Murton's is at .737, Floyd at .722, Jones at .640. I'd much rather have the unproven Guzman over Jones, he of the .298OBP and .248AVG

 

That's a false dilemma. We don't have to have Jones or Guzman. I'd rather have Guzman as a 5th OF than Jones as a starter (currently), but I don't want Guzman any where near the everyday lineup. Most of the reason I'd want Guzman is because he costs less, it has nothing to do with talent (or lack thereof). I would rather trade Jones and hand the job over to Pie.

[tkenm356]

Bynum Minors: .275 AVG, .347 OBP, .072 IsoD

Bynum Majors: .259/.307, .048 IsoD

 

Macias Minors: .270/.365, .095 IsoD

Macias Majors: .256/.298, .042 IsoD

 

Guzman Minors: .280/.359, .079 IsoD

Guzman Majors: .217/.270, .053 IsoD

 

These are not coincidences.

 

How can you even justify that argument when Bynum has played in 101 major league games, Macias has played in 659 major league games, and Guzman has played in 29, count 'em, 29 major league games. Macias has been around for an eternity, the last time he had regular minor league playing time was 7 years ago. He had a chance to prove himself for 5 years, and he didn't, even though people kept putting him on their teams for some reason

 

Comparing Guzman, who has 89 major league AB, to Macias, who has 1646AB, is ridiculous. Guzman has started 16 games in his major league career. 16. He's been a subbed and pinch hit the other 13 games he played in. If you wanted to be judge, jury, and executioner based on 29 games, hey, that's cool.

 

Oh, and Guzman's skills FAR EXCEED Bynum and Macias' when they were in the minors. Hey, guess what young player's major league line this is:

 

47G 162AB 3HR 8RBI 18BB 4SB 47SO .191AVG .303OBP .616OPS

 

You want this guy on your team or in your farm system? He's had twice the time to prove himself as Guzman has, yet I wouldn't doubt a single person on here wouldn't jump at the chance to put this guy in their farm system

[Drew Doughty]

the difference between Gordon and Guzman is that Gordon has a good minor league career and great comparables. Lots of players that eventually became amazing struggled out of the gate. Gordon had a 1015 OPS in AA last year and is a polished college hitter. Guzman is a mediocre minor leaguer. They are not comparable.

[tkenm356]

the difference between Gordon and Guzman is that Gordon has a good minor league career and great comparables. Lots of players that eventually became amazing struggled out of the gate. Gordon had a 1015 OPS in AA last year and is a polished college hitter. Guzman is a mediocre minor leaguer. They are not comparable.

 

I was making the point that people are making the judgement on Guzman that he will be an awful major leaguer based on his major league numbers, which pertain to only 29 games.

[Drew Doughty]

the difference between Gordon and Guzman is that Gordon has a good minor league career and great comparables. Lots of players that eventually became amazing struggled out of the gate. Gordon had a 1015 OPS in AA last year and is a polished college hitter. Guzman is a mediocre minor leaguer. They are not comparable.

 

I was making the point that people are making the judgement on Guzman that he will be an awful major leaguer based on his major league numbers, which pertain to only 29 games.

 

actually, it's his limited major league numbers and his expansive mediocre minor league career.

[tkenm356]

the difference between Gordon and Guzman is that Gordon has a good minor league career and great comparables. Lots of players that eventually became amazing struggled out of the gate. Gordon had a 1015 OPS in AA last year and is a polished college hitter. Guzman is a mediocre minor leaguer. They are not comparable.

 

I was making the point that people are making the judgement on Guzman that he will be an awful major leaguer based on his major league numbers, which pertain to only 29 games.

 

actually, it's his limited major league numbers and his expansive mediocre minor league career.

 

Well if you want to judge players based on "expansive mediocre minor league careers" look no further than Ryan Theriot. Why is he on the team? Because he proved himsefl, he was given the opportunity and excelled. Guzman hasn't been given the proper opportunity

[Drew Doughty]

the difference between Gordon and Guzman is that Gordon has a good minor league career and great comparables. Lots of players that eventually became amazing struggled out of the gate. Gordon had a 1015 OPS in AA last year and is a polished college hitter. Guzman is a mediocre minor leaguer. They are not comparable.

 

I was making the point that people are making the judgement on Guzman that he will be an awful major leaguer based on his major league numbers, which pertain to only 29 games.

 

actually, it's his limited major league numbers and his expansive mediocre minor league career.

 

Well if you want to judge players based on "expansive mediocre minor league careers" look no further than Ryan Theriot. Why is he on the team? Because he proved himsefl, he was given the opportunity and excelled. Guzman hasn't been given the proper opportunity

 

Theriot has a 686 OPS, average defense, and hasn't done much of anything in about 2 weeks. I don't think I want 2 Theriots on one team.

[Jehrico]

the difference between Gordon and Guzman is that Gordon has a good minor league career and great comparables. Lots of players that eventually became amazing struggled out of the gate. Gordon had a 1015 OPS in AA last year and is a polished college hitter. Guzman is a mediocre minor leaguer. They are not comparable.

 

I was making the point that people are making the judgement on Guzman that he will be an awful major leaguer based on his major league numbers, which pertain to only 29 games.

 

actually, it's his limited major league numbers and his expansive mediocre minor league career.

Expansive mediocre minor league career? Never followed him much, did you? He was a stud until he had injury problems, and didn't pitch much for a few years. Predictably, after not hardly pitching for over two years, he was rusty, and his 2006 wasn't anything to brag about. He's been showing the form that made him a top prospect before he had injury problems. The "expansive mediocre minor league career" you speak of was only mediocre for a year or so after coming off of injuries.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

the difference between Gordon and Guzman is that Gordon has a good minor league career and great comparables. Lots of players that eventually became amazing struggled out of the gate. Gordon had a 1015 OPS in AA last year and is a polished college hitter. Guzman is a mediocre minor leaguer. They are not comparable.

 

I was making the point that people are making the judgement on Guzman that he will be an awful major leaguer based on his major league numbers, which pertain to only 29 games.

 

actually, it's his limited major league numbers and his expansive mediocre minor league career.

Expansive mediocre minor league career? Never followed him much, did you? He was a stud until he had injury problems, and didn't pitch much for a few years. Predictably, after not hardly pitching for over two years, he was rusty, and his 2006 wasn't anything to brag about. He's been showing the form that made him a top prospect before he had injury problems. The "expansive mediocre minor league career" you speak of was only mediocre for a year or so after coming off of injuries.

 

How did you follow the thread to this point and think that he was talking about Angel Guzman?

[NCCubFan]

Expansive mediocre minor league career? Never followed him much, did you? He was a stud until he had injury problems, and didn't pitch much for a few years. Predictably, after not hardly pitching for over two years, he was rusty, and his 2006 wasn't anything to brag about. He's been showing the form that made him a top prospect before he had injury problems. The "expansive mediocre minor league career" you speak of was only mediocre for a year or so after coming off of injuries.

It sounds like you're describing Angel Guzman (since you referred to pitching). They're talking about a different Guzman (I don't recall who, but he's a position player since they're referring to his hitting).

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Bynum Minors: .275 AVG, .347 OBP, .072 IsoD

Bynum Majors: .259/.307, .048 IsoD

 

Macias Minors: .270/.365, .095 IsoD

Macias Majors: .256/.298, .042 IsoD

 

Guzman Minors: .280/.359, .079 IsoD

Guzman Majors: .217/.270, .053 IsoD

 

These are not coincidences.

 

How can you even justify that argument when Bynum has played in 101 major league games, Macias has played in 659 major league games, and Guzman has played in 29, count 'em, 29 major league games. Macias has been around for an eternity, the last time he had regular minor league playing time was 7 years ago. He had a chance to prove himself for 5 years, and he didn't, even though people kept putting him on their teams for some reason

 

Comparing Guzman, who has 89 major league AB, to Macias, who has 1646AB, is ridiculous. Guzman has started 16 games in his major league career. 16. He's been a subbed and pinch hit the other 13 games he played in. If you wanted to be judge, jury, and executioner based on 29 games, hey, that's cool.

 

Oh, and Guzman's skills FAR EXCEED Bynum and Macias' when they were in the minors. Hey, guess what young player's major league line this is:

 

47G 162AB 3HR 8RBI 18BB 4SB 47SO .191AVG .303OBP .616OPS

 

You want this guy on your team or in your farm system? He's had twice the time to prove himself as Guzman has, yet I wouldn't doubt a single person on here wouldn't jump at the chance to put this guy in their farm system

 

Guzman's major league numbers were not the point, I almost didn't even put them in there. I only included them to illustrate that even though Guzman hasn't had extensive time in MLB, he hasn't bucked the trend in his short stint.

 

You keep saying that Guzman "FAR EXCEEDS" Macias and Bynum, but it's not true. Look at the post you quoted, their numbers are staggeringly similar, at similar ages and levels. I gave you a more scouting report side to it as well, with them being short switch hitters who slap at the ball to make contact(avoiding both K's and extra bases).

 

And you compared it to Alex Gordon? Gordon who put up a 1000+ OPS in AA at age 22? Who was drafted 2nd overall because of his skillset? Who spent 1 year in the minor leagues compared to Guzman's 5? You're taking part of what I'm saying out of context and then making a strawman on top of that.

 

Again, Guzman is not any good.

[Mephistopheles]

LOL SOMEONE IS COMPARING GORDON TO GUZMAN?!

 

Wow, that's pretty intellectually dishonest. There is NO comparison whatsoever between them. Theyre almost complete opposites of each other.

 

 

LOLOLOLOL

[tkenm356]

And you compared it to Alex Gordon? Gordon who put up a 1000+ OPS in AA at age 22? Who was drafted 2nd overall because of his skillset? Who spent 1 year in the minor leagues compared to Guzman's 5? You're taking part of what I'm saying out of context and then making a strawman on top of that.

 

LOL SOMEONE IS COMPARING GORDON TO GUZMAN?!

 

Wow, that's pretty intellectually dishonest. There is NO comparison whatsoever between them. Theyre almost complete opposites of each other.

 

 

LOLOLOLOL

 

I never compared, I used his stats to make a point

 

LOLOLOLOL!!!1!!

 

At no point did I say "Look at Gordons stats and look at Guzman's, Guzman's is better". Nothing of the sort. I said "Look at these major league numbers and ask yourself if you want him on your team/farm club.

 

Screw it, let's just end the conversation, it's going nowhere. I'm not changing my mind, you're all not changing yours. Time for me to embrace it

[IWU_CUBS_FAN]

man i wouldn't mind a rental of torii hunter...he brings defense with him that is not there and his bat isn't bad either, plus i've been a huge torii hunter fan for a long time, but its really just wishful thinking ...and then if the could turn jacque into a relief pitcher that would be great

[Ding Dong Johnson]

man i wouldn't mind a rental of torii hunter...he brings defense with him that is not there and his bat isn't bad either, plus i've been a huge torii hunter fan for a long time, but its really just wishful thinking ...and then if the could turn jacque into a relief pitcher that would be great

 

his defense is greatly overrated, and his offense is barely better than average

[Transmogrified Tiger]

man i wouldn't mind a rental of torii hunter...he brings defense with him that is not there and his bat isn't bad either, plus i've been a huge torii hunter fan for a long time, but its really just wishful thinking ...and then if the could turn jacque into a relief pitcher that would be great

 

his defense is greatly overrated, and his offense is barely better than average

 

You realize he's got a .942 OPS to start the year, right? Granted it's unsustainable with his current LD% and BABIP, but still.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

man i wouldn't mind a rental of torii hunter...he brings defense with him that is not there and his bat isn't bad either, plus i've been a huge torii hunter fan for a long time, but its really just wishful thinking ...and then if the could turn jacque into a relief pitcher that would be great

 

his defense is greatly overrated, and his offense is barely better than average

 

You realize he's got a .942 OPS to start the year, right? Granted it's unsustainable with his current LD% and BABIP, but still.

 

yes, I was more referring to the rest of his lackluster career

[Lockes Eye Scar]

Torii - .271/.324/.468

 

Jacque - .279/.327/.457

 

No on the right-handed Jock.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Torii Hunter is a right-handed Jock with better defense. No.

 

depends on your definition of "better", I guess -- I'd say Jacque's actually been the better CF this year despite 2 errors to Hunter's 0