Why can't Theriot play SS?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I was unable to watch the game yesterday. . . How did Theriot look at SS? Did it look like he can handle the position?

 

It's tough to judge. There weren't any plays where he had to make a long or quick throw, and the only play to show off any range was charging on a soft hit ball (there wasn't really a ball where he had to move left or right).

Theriot did all that he could do though yesterday-he made all the plays that were hit to him flawlessly.

 

And the key is that those plays are few and far between. If he fails to make that really difficult play once every 3-5 games but is getting on base once more every game or two than Izturis or Cedeno, the defense is something you can definitely live with.

 

I'm not talking about the really difficult play-I'm just talking about the play where for example the shortstop has to take 3-4 steps to the right or left, pick up the ball, set and throw. My guess is that Theriot will be better at that going towards the second base bag then going away from that, but it was rather unusual that none of those types of plays happened yesterday.

 

If he continues to hit, his defense will certainly be something that the team can live with though-because the addition of his bat will help give the Cubs one of the best offenses in the NL.

 

I know, I was more or less trying to add to what you were saying. He'll be fine with the routine plays that he had yesterday, and he'll be OK with moving a few steps to either side. Those will make up the vast majority of the plays and his offense will more than make up for the rare time when he can't make that "diving into the stands face first" catch or gun a guy out after one hit deep in the hole.

[YearofDaCubs]

Dusty would've never started Theriot at SS, props to Lou for doing so. I hope he sticks with him there, because he really needs to be in the lineup everyday at this point.

 

I disagree. Dusty would have done it once but would have benched Theriot the next day because Izturis "Needs to hit his way out of his slump"

 

Theriot started 2 games at SS last season.

Probably after Neifi was traded and Izturis was on the DL.

[jersey cubs fan]

Dusty would've never started Theriot at SS, props to Lou for doing so. I hope he sticks with him there, because he really needs to be in the lineup everyday at this point.

 

I disagree. Dusty would have done it once but would have benched Theriot the next day because Izturis "Needs to hit his way out of his slump"

 

Theriot started 2 games at SS last season.

Probably after Neifi was traded and Izturis was on the DL.

 

8/28 and 8/29

[windycityfan]

Taking offense and defense into account, Theriot >>> Izturis, and it's not even close.

 

Theriot >>> Izturis?

 

No offense to >>> but I think it does no justice as to how much more valuable Theriot is over Izturis.

 

Quite frankly, Izturis is the Paul Bako of shortstops. An absolute waste of a roster spot. I predict this guy will be out of the league in no more than three years, unless Jim Hendry and Dusty Baker reunite again to destroy another team.

 

Speaking of which, how on earth did the Cubs end up with Neifi Perez, Cesar Izturis, Boom Boom Bynum and John Mabry on the same team. Jim Hendry, what a lucky lucky LUCKY bastard. But I digress.

[YearofDaCubs]

Dusty would've never started Theriot at SS, props to Lou for doing so. I hope he sticks with him there, because he really needs to be in the lineup everyday at this point.

 

I disagree. Dusty would have done it once but would have benched Theriot the next day because Izturis "Needs to hit his way out of his slump"

 

Theriot started 2 games at SS last season.

Probably after Neifi was traded and Izturis was on the DL.

 

8/28 and 8/29

Neifi was traded on 8.20 and sure enough Izturis went on the DL on 8.22. Damn, I'm good.

[10man]

Who cares about defense? The guy is a sparkplug i tell you!

[killthegoat06]

Sign Arod in the offseason, Theriot to 2nd.

[biittner77]

Sign Arod in the offseason, Theriot to 2nd.

 

One of the most compelling arguments for not signing Zambrano is using that money to pay ARod.

[RichHillIsABeast]

In the minors, Theriot was an error machine at SS. 40 errors in 189 games. That's not good.

 

Theriot's offense isn't good enough to warrant that kind of a defensive liability at SS.

[jersey cubs fan]

In the minors, Theriot was an error machine at SS. 40 errors in 189 games. That's not good.

 

Theriot's offense isn't good enough to warrant that kind of a defensive liability at SS.

 

Izturis's defense isn't good enough to warrent that kind of offensive liability.

 

The least they can do is give Theriot some time out there to prove his critics wrong.

[RichHillIsABeast]

In the minors, Theriot was an error machine at SS. 40 errors in 189 games. That's not good.

 

Theriot's offense isn't good enough to warrant that kind of a defensive liability at SS.

 

Izturis's defense isn't good enough to warrent that kind of offensive liability.

 

The least they can do is give Theriot some time out there to prove his critics wrong.

 

All our SS options suck. That Theriot is being put at SS just underlines how bad we are at that position.

[OleMissCub]

In the minors, Theriot was an error machine at SS. 40 errors in 189 games. That's not good.

 

Theriot's offense isn't good enough to warrant that kind of a defensive liability at SS.

 

 

Cedeno played shortstop in 293 games and had 102 errors in the minors. Izturis played 431 games at SS and had 83 errors in the minors.

 

That's an error every 2.8 games for Cedeno. Izturis had an error every 5.2 games. Theriot had an error every 4.7 games.

 

I don't see the defensive disparity that you speak of. Not in the least bit. Certainly not enough to brand him a defensive liability that forces us to negate his bat.

[imb]

There is so much more that goes into playing defense other than "errors per game" that even having a discussion based on that made up statistic is ridiculous. e/pg? seriously?

[Mephistopheles]

imb you are terrible. ERRORS ARE THE BEST STAT IN THE WORLD.There's NO personal bias in it whatsoever!!!

[OleMissCub]

There is so much more that goes into playing defense other than "errors per game" that even having a discussion based on that made up statistic is ridiculous. e/pg? seriously?

 

There's more to defense than errors??? Are you serious? Holy crap, I never knew. :roll:

 

He brought up the discussion about Theriot's number of errors in such and such amount of games, I'm merely refuting it using the same logic he employed.

 

Don't pee your pants, IMB.

[neely crenshaw]

There is more to d..what's the difference between an error and a ball you didn't get to? nothing other than the stat.

izturis makes great plays and then blows an easy one...that's a wash. give me a guy who will pick up every ball that he should. championships aren't won by guys that make spectaclur plays alone.

izturis is also horrid at the plate not just by average but how many times does he fail at a situation. it really appears that he does not even look to do these things. when you suck at hitting you have to do these things!

 

let's go with theriot because he plays the game hard and correctly..maybe just maybe he will serve as an example for some of the other vets that haven't exactly been bustin' tail. they could be next.

if we are going to be in last i would rather be in last with a bunch of guys busting their humps

[imb]

There is so much more that goes into playing defense other than "errors per game" that even having a discussion based on that made up statistic is ridiculous. e/pg? seriously?

 

There's more to defense than errors??? Are you serious? Holy crap, I never knew. :roll:

 

He brought up the discussion about Theriot's number of errors in such and such amount of games, I'm merely refuting it using the same logic he employed.

 

Don't pee your pants, IMB.

 

I was pointing out what a stupid discussion it was. I don't know why you felt the need to respond to stupid logic with stupid logic of your own.

 

Don't poop your pants, OMC. (because poop is a funnier word)

[davearm]

Although I am definitely rooting for Theriot to take the SS job and never give it back, I have to confess that in the couple of innings of tonight's game that I was able to catch, I saw three different balls hit to SS that Theriot didn't make, and on each one I got the sense that a better SS would've made the play.

 

The first was the slow dribbler hit by Wilson that Theriot bobbled for an E6.

 

The next was the grounder up the middle (Duncan IIRC) that Theriot had to dive to field, causing the throw to first to be late. A rangier SS can stay on his feet to field that ball -- Cedeno does this quite well.

 

The third was the grounder through the hole on which Soriano nailed Edmonds at the plate. Theriot seemed to be shading to the bag and the ball was out of the reach of his dive. This one seemed like a combination of bad positioning and poor range. A better SS keeps that ball on the IF at a minimum, and maybe turns it into a forceout at 2B.

 

All things considered, it didn't take me long at all to realize why Theriot is not the ideal candidate at SS, defensively.

[imb]

Although I am definitely rooting for Theriot to take the SS job and never give it back, I have to confess that in the couple of innings of tonight's game that I was able to catch, I saw three different balls hit to SS that Theriot didn't make, and on each one I got the sense that a better SS would've made the play.

 

The first was the slow dribbler hit by Wilson that Theriot bobbled for an E6.

 

The next was the grounder up the middle (Duncan IIRC) that Theriot had to dive to field, causing the throw to first to be late. A rangier SS can stay on his feet to field that ball -- Cedeno does this quite well.

 

The third was the grounder through the hole on which Soriano nailed Edmonds at the plate. Theriot seemed to be shading to the bag and the ball was out of the reach of his dive. This one seemed like a combination of bad positioning and poor range. A better SS keeps that ball on the IF at a minimum, and maybe turns it into a forceout at 2B.

 

All things considered, it didn't take me long at all to realize why Theriot is not the ideal candidate at SS, defensively.

 

And then Izturis dropped a line drive hit 2 feet to his right and Cedeno struck out and gave Matt Murton cancer without even leaving the bench.

 

I agree that Theriot is no gold glover, but all things considered, unless he is just flat out god awful defensively (and I'm talking Daryle Ward at shortstop bad), he's probably the best overall option.

[rickrolled]

haha, you so crazy IMB

[SouthSideRyan]

He's right. Poop is funnier.

[OleMissCub]

 

I agree that Theriot is no gold glover, but all things considered, unless he is just flat out god awful defensively (and I'm talking Daryle Ward at shortstop bad), he's probably the best overall option.

 

I'd take Cecil Fielder at SS over Izzy's current offensive production

[RichHillIsABeast]

In the minors, Theriot was an error machine at SS. 40 errors in 189 games. That's not good.

 

Theriot's offense isn't good enough to warrant that kind of a defensive liability at SS.

 

 

Cedeno played shortstop in 293 games and had 102 errors in the minors. Izturis played 431 games at SS and had 83 errors in the minors.

 

That's an error every 2.8 games for Cedeno. Izturis had an error every 5.2 games. Theriot had an error every 4.7 games.

 

I don't see the defensive disparity that you speak of. Not in the least bit. Certainly not enough to brand him a defensive liability that forces us to negate his bat.

 

Theriot has mediocre range and an ok arm.

 

Ronny Cedeno has fantastic range and a great arm. He also has ADD on routine plays.

 

But yeah, no defensive disparity at all.

 

I know errors are a stupid way to look at defense. I just made a comment about an individual player and not a comparison.

 

Did you watch the game today OMC? Theriot was horrible. Putrid range and a careless error. Good thing Soriano has a nice arm and Edmonds is Alou 2004 reincarnated.

[sunnydoo]

Ya, Theriot had an awful game. He missed 3 or 4 balls that Cedeno or Izturis would have made plays on. (Of course its tough to complain when Cesar misplayed that ball in the 9th).

 

But ya the little range and no arm was on display tonight. I have seen him in the minors, and he really was never better than average there. Dont know if he can do it everyday at SS, but if we are going to play him everyday, then i would recommend we put DeRosa at SS and Theriot at 2b.

[CUBZ99]

Ya, Theriot had an awful game. He missed 3 or 4 balls that Cedeno or Izturis would have made plays on. (Of course its tough to complain when Cesar misplayed that ball in the 9th).

 

But ya the little range and no arm was on display tonight. I have seen him in the minors, and he really was never better than average there. Dont know if he can do it everyday at SS, but if we are going to play him everyday, then i would recommend we put DeRosa at SS and Theriot at 2b.

 

You must have watched a different game then. I saw only one play that would probably have been made by another SS (the bobble) and one that he dove over (Edmonds put out). On a play where it is lined past a diving SS, I tend to give the SS the benefit of the doubt. Hey, I've even see D-Lee miss one or two of those this year.

 

Also, Theriot probably would have caught that liner that Izturis dropped, so defensively it was probably a wash. Theriot is going to be compared to two SS's whose defensive skills are highly exaggerated. Izturis is nowhere near a gold glove caliber SS anymore. He may have been at one time, but since coming to the Cubs he is having problems making routine plays. Cedeno is athletic no doubt. But he has problems with routine plays also. I think its time to get real with our assessment regarding defense. Flashy is not equal or congruent to good.

 

BTW did anyone catch Bob's shot at Edmonds? It was in the 4th inning when Duncan dove for a ball and missed. Bob was talking about it wasn't necessary for Duncan to dive unless he was showboating. Then he said something to the effect of "Duncan must be watching Edmonds too much." :lol: