**Speculation** Angels & Cubs

[rchap24]

The problem is, Figgins sucks. He is Juan Pierre for the most part.

 

He is overrated I dont think he sucks. I know he isnt ideal, but I mean honestly Pierre and Soriano would be spectacular. Thats why I wanted Lofton in the offseason.

 

Nobody and Pierre could add up to spectacular. Not even ARod and Pierre, or Pujols and Pierre.

 

He's really not that bad, seriously! I know he doesnt put up like spectacular numbers, but hes a pretty decent leadoff hitter how can you make a statement like that. Those are the two best players in baseball.

[rchap24]

No offense, but what do you mean about the 7 times out of 10 part?

 

There are typically 3 results to a Juan Pierre at bat. Ground out to the 2b, ground out to the SS. Ball gets past one of the SS or the 2b.

 

Ok I understand your logic now, but thats your opinion and not statistical evidence. also with your logic the 7 times out of 10 part, umm.... he would be batting .300 hundred which last time I checked was a decent avg.

[fromthestretch]

The problem is, Figgins sucks. He is Juan Pierre for the most part.

 

He is overrated I dont think he sucks. I know he isnt ideal, but I mean honestly Pierre and Soriano would be spectacular. Thats why I wanted Lofton in the offseason.

 

Nobody and Pierre could add up to spectacular. Not even ARod and Pierre, or Pujols and Pierre.

 

He's really not that bad, seriously! I know he doesnt put up like spectacular numbers, but hes a pretty decent leadoff hitter how can you make a statement like that. Those are the two best players in baseball.

 

The thing is, he hasn't been a pretty decent leadoff hitter since 2004. Besides, as someone else mentioned, leadoff isn't a position. Your best bet is to try to maximize production out of each position on the field without handicapping yourself too much defensively and build the lineup from there. The one issue with that method is that you have players like Soriano who request to bat leadoff and not giving them that spot might cause them to sign elsewhere. But I'd rather have that then try to sign someone just for the sake of batting leadoff.

 

Yes, it would be great if the Cubs had a leadoff hitter that could get on base 40% of the time and steal 50+ bases without getting caught often, but those players are rare. On top of that, you have to hope he plays a position where you have a need.

[rocket]

Why? you have everyone at the true spots in a perfect line-up Jaque Jones is not a great 5th hitter. Don't get me wrong he played great last year, but Rameriez is an ideal 5th hitter.

 

What's an ideal 5th hitter? Why is Ramirez not a good 3rd hitter? Why isn't Ramirez a good cleanup hitter?

 

I always thought the "ideal" 5th hitter was a dangerous hitter, but not as good as the 3rd hitter and the cleanup guy. That's Jacque Jones to a tee.

[fromthestretch]

No offense, but what do you mean about the 7 times out of 10 part?

 

There are typically 3 results to a Juan Pierre at bat. Ground out to the 2b, ground out to the SS. Ball gets past one of the SS or the 2b.

 

Ok I understand your logic now, but thats your opinion and not statistical evidence. also with your logic the 7 times out of 10 part, umm.... he would be batting .300 hundred which last time I checked was a decent avg.

 

Actually, he's referring to on-base percentage, which is much more important, especially for a guy like Pierre whose job is to get on base.

 

Besides, Pierre hit .292, which most would classify as a decent average. However, that led to a .330 OBP, which is lousy for a tablesetter.

 

And while what BBB said may not be statistical evidence, I'd be willing to bet money that Pierre had more at-bats result in a ball hit to a middle infielder more than just about any other player in the majors in 2006.

[BigbadB]

He's really not that bad, seriously! I know he doesnt put up like spectacular numbers, but hes a pretty decent leadoff hitter how can you make a statement like that. Those are the two best players in baseball.

 

Please define what makes a "pretty decent leadoff hitter"?

 

To me, a decent lead off hitter gets on base for the production guys who hit 3rd and 4th. Juan Pierre is horrible at getting on base. And when he does get on base, he runs himself into outs, taking away chances for the production guys to drive him in.

 

Alfonso Soriano scored 119 times last year compared to Pierre's 87 times. Soriano got on base at a .351 clip. Pierre was at .330. Pierre really provides nothing at the plate, while Soriano provides SLG to go along with a respectable OBP.

 

Kevin Youkilis scored 100 runs (mostly in the lead off spot) without having any speed to speak of, and he only played in 147 games. He got on base 38% of the time. He didn't always bat lead off. Had he stayed in the lead off spot all year, it's hard to say how many runs he would have scored. He scored 73 times in just 95 games.

 

The primary job of a lead off hitter is to get on base. Pierre is not good at getting on base. He can hit for decent average, but he can't walk to save his life.

 

And I'd like to point out that it is not hard to lead the league in hits when you easily lead the league in AB's. He also led the league in outs by a wide margin. It's what he does in those at bats when he doesn't get a hit that decreases his value. Not to mention the fact that he got caught stealing 20 times. That's pathetic.

[USSoccer]

Juan Pierre led the league in outs last year.

 

This is bad for any player. It's especially bad for a guy who bats 1st.

[BigbadB]

Ok I understand your logic now, but thats your opinion and not statistical evidence. also with your logic the 7 times out of 10 part, umm.... he would be batting .300 hundred which last time I checked was a decent avg.

 

Statistical evidence isn't needed. I watched the 2006 season. I watched Juan Pierre play. I am so thankful that Pierre is no longer the Cubs problem, that I can't stop thanking someone, anyone, for kicking him to the curb this offseason. A guy who hits .300 that can't get on base any better than .330 has no business batting anywhere but the bottom of a batting order. Period.

[USSoccer]

No offense, but what do you mean about the 7 times out of 10 part?

 

There are typically 3 results to a Juan Pierre at bat. Ground out to the 2b, ground out to the SS. Ball gets past one of the SS or the 2b.

 

Ok I understand your logic now, but thats your opinion and not statistical evidence. also with your logic the 7 times out of 10 part, umm.... he would be batting .300 hundred which last time I checked was a decent avg.

 

rchap24,

 

Did you post here under a different name? Your name and writing style is very similar to someone else...

Edited February 12, 2007 by USSoccer

[BigbadB]

Something went very wrong with those quotes. :D

[USSoccer]

Something went very wrong with those quotes. :D

 

Wow, not sure what happened there. I fixed it, though. Weird.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Pierre is Willie Wilson. Nothing more, nothing less.

[CuseCubFan69]

Pierre is Willie Wilson. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Honey if I didn't love you...opps, I got confused with the Police/country/grammy thread and this one!

 

Well the big difference between those 2 (Wilson + Pierre) is what the Cubbies gave up to get them but yeah, they are pretty close along with a Mickey Rivers type guy.

[nilodnayr]

No offense, but what do you mean about the 7 times out of 10 part?

 

There are typically 3 results to a Juan Pierre at bat. Ground out to the 2b, ground out to the SS. Ball gets past one of the SS or the 2b.

 

Ok I understand your logic now, but thats your opinion and not statistical evidence. also with your logic the 7 times out of 10 part, umm.... he would be batting .300 hundred which last time I checked was a decent avg.

 

rchap24,

 

Did you post here under a different name? Your name and writing style is very similar to someone else...

 

Maybe not name and writing style, but based on the ideas expoused, the first thing that popped into my mind was that Jim Hendry was visiting the board.

[CuseCubFan69]

Let's not get personal here ladies and gentlemen.

[rchap24]

Why? you have everyone at the true spots in a perfect line-up Jaque Jones is not a great 5th hitter. Don't get me wrong he played great last year, but Rameriez is an ideal 5th hitter.

 

What's an ideal 5th hitter? Why is Ramirez not a good 3rd hitter? Why isn't Ramirez a good cleanup hitter?

 

I always thought the "ideal" 5th hitter was a dangerous hitter, but not as good as the 3rd hitter and the cleanup guy. That's Jacque Jones to a tee.

yeah, but if you got Rameriez, Lee, and Soriano you can afford to push Jacque to a number 6th spot.

[rchap24]

Something went very wrong with those quotes. :D

 

Wow, not sure what happened there. I fixed it, though. Weird.

 

ha sorry my bad! :lol:

[rchap24]

The problem is, Figgins sucks. He is Juan Pierre for the most part.

 

He is overrated I dont think he sucks. I know he isnt ideal, but I mean honestly Pierre and Soriano would be spectacular. Thats why I wanted Lofton in the offseason.

 

Nobody and Pierre could add up to spectacular. Not even ARod and Pierre, or Pujols and Pierre.

 

He's really not that bad, seriously! I know he doesnt put up like spectacular numbers, but hes a pretty decent leadoff hitter how can you make a statement like that. Those are the two best players in baseball.

 

The thing is, he hasn't been a pretty decent leadoff hitter since 2004. Besides, as someone else mentioned, leadoff isn't a position. Your best bet is to try to maximize production out of each position on the field without handicapping yourself too much defensively and build the lineup from there. The one issue with that method is that you have players like Soriano who request to bat leadoff and not giving them that spot might cause them to sign elsewhere. But I'd rather have that then try to sign someone just for the sake of batting leadoff.

 

Yes, it would be great if the Cubs had a leadoff hitter that could get on base 40% of the time and steal 50+ bases without getting caught often, but those players are rare. On top of that, you have to hope he plays a position where you have a need.

 

Ok I agree with what you said. I understand he has been bad, but he doesn't suck even with the last two bad years.

[soccer10k]

Oh I also forgot to mention led the NL with hits last year so he got on base. He wasn't great dont get me wrong, but him leadoff in the line-up I just mentioned would be pretty good.

 

He also led the league in outs made last year.

[WrigleyField 22]

Pierre is Willie Wilson. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Wait what are you trying to say about Willie Nelson, he can't get on base?

 

But seriously what are you saying about Willie?

[Rob]

The problem is, Figgins sucks. He is Juan Pierre for the most part.

 

He is overrated I dont think he sucks. I know he isnt ideal, but I mean honestly Pierre and Soriano would be spectacular. Thats why I wanted Lofton in the offseason.

 

Nobody and Pierre could add up to spectacular. Not even ARod and Pierre, or Pujols and Pierre.

 

He's really not that bad, seriously! I know he doesnt put up like spectacular numbers, but hes a pretty decent leadoff hitter how can you make a statement like that. Those are the two best players in baseball.

 

The thing is, he hasn't been a pretty decent leadoff hitter since 2004. Besides, as someone else mentioned, leadoff isn't a position. Your best bet is to try to maximize production out of each position on the field without handicapping yourself too much defensively and build the lineup from there. The one issue with that method is that you have players like Soriano who request to bat leadoff and not giving them that spot might cause them to sign elsewhere. But I'd rather have that then try to sign someone just for the sake of batting leadoff.

 

Yes, it would be great if the Cubs had a leadoff hitter that could get on base 40% of the time and steal 50+ bases without getting caught often, but those players are rare. On top of that, you have to hope he plays a position where you have a need.

 

Ok I agree with what you said. I understand he has been bad, but he doesn't suck even with the last two bad years.

 

Does Pierre actively hurt you compared to using a classic quadruple A CF? Probably not.

 

However, the cost of acquiring Pierre was certainly far too high. He was worth Mitre alone, but the second we threw in Nolasco and Pinto, it was a doomed transaction, even without taking into account his monetary cost. Then we batted him at the top of the order, where his inability to get on base or hit for any power at all was amplified... especially on a team where we couldn't afford to hide his meager bat.

 

To think, we could have had Beltran after 2004... We would have had a legitimate superstar player and Nolasco and Pinto to boot.

 

That's a big part of the disdain for Pierre. His actual contribution to the team was mediocre at best... and we payed too much for it after missing out on a prize free agent. Pierre is symptom of the problem that is Jim Hendry.

[rchap24]

The problem is, Figgins sucks. He is Juan Pierre for the most part.

 

He is overrated I dont think he sucks. I know he isnt ideal, but I mean honestly Pierre and Soriano would be spectacular. Thats why I wanted Lofton in the offseason.

 

Nobody and Pierre could add up to spectacular. Not even ARod and Pierre, or Pujols and Pierre.

 

He's really not that bad, seriously! I know he doesnt put up like spectacular numbers, but hes a pretty decent leadoff hitter how can you make a statement like that. Those are the two best players in baseball.

 

The thing is, he hasn't been a pretty decent leadoff hitter since 2004. Besides, as someone else mentioned, leadoff isn't a position. Your best bet is to try to maximize production out of each position on the field without handicapping yourself too much defensively and build the lineup from there. The one issue with that method is that you have players like Soriano who request to bat leadoff and not giving them that spot might cause them to sign elsewhere. But I'd rather have that then try to sign someone just for the sake of batting leadoff.

 

Yes, it would be great if the Cubs had a leadoff hitter that could get on base 40% of the time and steal 50+ bases without getting caught often, but those players are rare. On top of that, you have to hope he plays a position where you have a need.

 

Ok I agree with what you said. I understand he has been bad, but he doesn't suck even with the last two bad years.

 

Does Pierre actively hurt you compared to using a classic quadruple A CF? Probably not.

 

However, the cost of acquiring Pierre was certainly far too high. He was worth Mitre alone, but the second we threw in Nolasco and Pinto, it was a doomed transaction, even without taking into account his monetary cost. Then we batted him at the top of the order, where his inability to get on base or hit for any power at all was amplified... especially on a team where we couldn't afford to hide his meager bat.

 

To think, we could have had Beltran after 2004... We would have had a legitimate superstar player and Nolasco and Pinto to boot.

 

That's a big part of the disdain for Pierre. His actual contribution to the team was mediocre at best... and we payed too much for it after missing out on a prize free agent. Pierre is symptom of the problem that is Jim Hendry.

 

Understood and I agree. as I stated though he as a player is not horrible he just didnt contribute greatly to our team last night.

[USSoccer]

 

Understood and I agree. as I stated though he as a player is not horrible he just didnt contribute greatly to our team last night.

 

That's where you're wrong, though. He is horrible. He has one skill. He's fast. His one skill doesn't provide him much benefit, though. He can't get on base enough to use it to steal bases, and he's not fast enough or skilled enough at stealing bases to have a SB% above 80%. He isn't a good defensive CF; his speed doesn't help him track down as many balls in the gap as it should, and that's not even factoring in his arm, which has all the strength of an 11 year old girl.

 

He doesn't take walks, has no power at all, and excels at making outs-more outs than anyone in the league by a wide margin.

 

He's a bad, bad baseball player. You could make a good argument that Cesar Izturis is the superior player based on his defense alone.

[Rob]

Horrible is a pretty strong word. I typically try to reserve it for the people who perform below replacement level.

 

Tomas Perez has been horrible the last two seasons. Cesar Izturis was horrible for us last season. Juan Pierre is pretty damn bad...a situation only exacerbated by the role he was cast in... but he doesn't quite fall under my umbrella of "horrible."

[Mephistopheles]

Semantics aside I think we can all agree that Pierre doesn't help a team win.