Cubs sign Cliff Floyd?

[goonys evil twin]

I can see no possible way that signing LH-swinging Floyd won't cause a big reduction in Murton's playing time. If Murton is just going to sit on the bench for most games I'd rather see him traded. He's at the point in his career where the only sensible options are giving him a shot a being an everyday guy or trading him while his value is high. Having him languish on the bench will only hurt his value.

 

That's exactly what will happen. Cubs management has pretty much told Soriano they will give him a spot and not move him around. So, that's either one corner OF spot locked down for 160+ games, most likely corner.

 

Between Jones, Soriano and Murton, Murton seems like the least likely guy to get any CF playing time. Soriano would likely be next since he's never played a game in CF before. So, Jones in CF and Soriano in RF are pretty much locks with this team.

 

That leaves Murton, Floyd and Ward to grab at bats in LF. Most pitchers are RH, so Piniella will look to get a LH bat in there against RHP.

 

One scenario I should add, but doesn't really change anything, is that if Jones gets traded and Pie gets the nod in CF, that still leaves Murton, Floyd and Ward in LF.

 

Murton loses no matter how this turns out.

 

Trade him with the farm for Cabrera.

 

Murton could get 500+ PA this season, and if he does, I'm fine with it. If he's getting only 350 or so, that's bad.

[frostwyrm]

Trading Murton would make the market work in our favor for a change. Looking at the huge deals that mediocre OFers are getting, I have to believe that a young OF who is already a solid contributor and will be dirt cheap for the next few years would command a hefty price in trade.

[VanceJergins]

The devolution of the Cubs' outfield is comical:

 

2003: Alou, Patterson/Lofton, Sosa

2004: Alou, Patterson, Sosa

2005: Hollandsworth, Patterson, Burnitz (w/Dubois, Murton and Lawton)

2006: Murton, Pierre, Jones

2007: Murton?, Jones?, Soriano, Pie?, Floyd?

 

I'm very against Murton having to share time with Floyd, and I'm not a big Jones fan, but how can you say that the projected 07 outfield would be worse than 06 and especially 05? 05 was probably the peak of crappiness followed closely by 06, but Murton, Jones, Soriano wouldnt be a bad outfield.

[Bull]

Is the consensus that Murton getting less than 450 PAs is bad over is good?

 

If not, what's your number?

[CubColtPacer]

The devolution of the Cubs' outfield is comical:

 

2003: Alou, Patterson/Lofton, Sosa

2004: Alou, Patterson, Sosa

2005: Hollandsworth, Patterson, Burnitz (w/Dubois, Murton and Lawton)

2006: Murton, Pierre, Jones

2007: Murton?, Jones?, Soriano, Pie?, Floyd?

 

I'm very against Murton having to share time with Floyd, and I'm not a big Jones fan, but how can you say that the projected 07 outfield would be worse than 06 and especially 05? 05 was probably the peak of crappiness followed closely by 06, but Murton, Jones, Soriano wouldnt be a bad outfield.

 

That's what I was thinking when I saw that 5 year outfield. The big bats of Sosa and Alou weren't replaced immediately, and so the outfield declined all the way till 2005. 2006 was a much better outfield (because 2005's outfield was so miserable rather than the great quality of 2006), and 2007 should be again a better outfield than 2006.

[Bull]

The devolution of the Cubs' outfield is comical:

 

2003: Alou, Patterson/Lofton, Sosa

2004: Alou, Patterson, Sosa

2005: Hollandsworth, Patterson, Burnitz (w/Dubois, Murton and Lawton)

2006: Murton, Pierre, Jones

2007: Murton?, Jones?, Soriano, Pie?, Floyd?

 

I'm very against Murton having to share time with Floyd, and I'm not a big Jones fan, but how can you say that the projected 07 outfield would be worse than 06 and especially 05? 05 was probably the peak of crappiness followed closely by 06, but Murton, Jones, Soriano wouldnt be a bad outfield.

 

That's what I was thinking when I saw that 5 year outfield. The big bats of Sosa and Alou weren't replaced immediately, and so the outfield declined all the way till 2005. 2006 was a much better outfield (because 2005's outfield was so miserable rather than the great quality of 2006), and 2007 should be again a better outfield than 2006.

 

Makes you appreciate how great Sosa was. Put Sosa's 2003 numbers into any of those outfields and they all of the sudden become something between respectable and great.

[Soul]

Is the consensus that Murton getting less than 450 PAs is bad over is good?

 

If not, what's your number?

 

Give me a decent CF, and I don't care so much about this. I'm pretty sure Murton will get the majority of the play time anyway. If Lou tries to give Floyd more, he'll break down and Murton will wind up playing full time.

 

If by some chance Floyd doesn't break down (as he didn't in '05, for example), then looking at his numbers he's better than Murt in the power categories anyway, and we could use some more pop.

 

This is alot of hubbub about nothing, IMO.

[Pickle]

I gotta agree with ya, Soul. Floyd hasn't even been signed yet and people are acting like drama queens.

[goonys evil twin]

I gotta agree with ya, Soul. Floyd hasn't even been signed yet and people are acting like drama queens.

 

I gotta disagree with you. People are explaining how they'd feel given a series of scenarios.

[BigbadB]

This is alot of hubbub about nothing, IMO.

 

Not sure how you can say that. Even if Floyd plays a lot and breaks down, that still leaves Ward in the mix for some playing time in LF.

 

If Lee is fully healthy, he'll play 155+ games. If Soriano stays healthy, he'll play 155+ games. That leaves LF as Ward's only position to get some playing time.

 

With such a RH dominant hitting attack, I can definitely see Ward and Floyd gobbling up a huge percentage of the at bats Murton should get.

 

I like Floyd. I really wanted him in a trade for Sosa. However, the wrong guy is going to get pine time due to Floyd's presence.

[goonys evil twin]

Is the consensus that Murton getting less than 450 PAs is bad over is good?

 

If not, what's your number?

 

It's not as simple as picking a number and saying good or bad. I think if Murton is only getting 300 PA, that's really bad, for anybody who wants Murton to be the regular LF soon. But if he's platooned with somebody who puts up a 900+ OPS in the other 400 LF PA, then it's not bad for the Cubs. It's about a balance.

[BigbadB]

Is the consensus that Murton getting less than 450 PAs is bad over is good?

 

If not, what's your number?

 

It's not as simple as picking a number and saying good or bad. I think if Murton is only getting 300 PA, that's really bad, for anybody who wants Murton to be the regular LF soon. But if he's platooned with somebody who puts up a 900+ OPS in the other 400 LF PA, then it's not bad for the Cubs. It's about a balance.

 

This is pretty much my thought process on this as well. I like depth on the bench, and Floyd will give that to the Cubs. But, I like to see depth spread around, rather than focused on limited positions.

 

Right now, the team is weak in CF. Can Jacque Jones even play CF adequately? Will he even be on the team?

 

Right now, the team is weak at SS. Izturis will be horrible with a bat. Cedeno won't be any better. Can Theriot play SS regularly?

 

Right now, the team has a concern at 2b. DeRosa has had one good major league season, albeit just last year. His back up is Cedeno or Theriot. Patterson is being rumored to get moved to the outfield due in part to questions about his make up defensively at 2b. If DeRosa misses any time at 2b, an infield of Izturis and Cedeno is about as unproductive as it gets.

 

Murton wasn't one of the concerns going into 2007. Instead of fixing a concern, we add depth to an already deep position. It makes zero sense.

 

Assuming Jones isn't going anywhere, the Cubs have Jones, Soriano, Murton, Ward and Floyd to play corner outfield. That's 5 guys for 2 positions. DeRosa makes it 6.

 

In CF, we have a guy (Soriano) who has never played the position, Jones who may or may not be able to play it anymore and Pie, who may or may not need another year of seasoning in the minors.

 

I don't mind being called a drama queen, but to ignore that adding Floyd is not addressing the problems of this team is a bit short sighted. If Floyd could play some CF and 3b, I wouldn't mind the signing. To take away at bats from a guy who has proven he can be an everyday player (regardless of which hand a pitcher throws with) while having weak options at other positions is asking for trouble.

[Soul]

This is alot of hubbub about nothing, IMO.

 

Not sure how you can say that. Even if Floyd plays a lot and breaks down, that still leaves Ward in the mix for some playing time in LF.

 

If Lee is fully healthy, he'll play 155+ games. If Soriano stays healthy, he'll play 155+ games. That leaves LF as Ward's only position to get some playing time.

 

With such a RH dominant hitting attack, I can definitely see Ward and Floyd gobbling up a huge percentage of the at bats Murton should get.

 

I like Floyd. I really wanted him in a trade for Sosa. However, the wrong guy is going to get pine time due to Floyd's presence.

 

I don't see how that's the same issue.

 

Even if Floyd is not acquired, Ward's still there and Lee/Soriano will still get their games. That will still leave Murton vulnerable, in your scenario. But it's got little to do with Floyd.

 

Personally I don't think Lee is going to be playing 155+ games. I think they're going to try and rest him some early in the season, and give Ward some starts at 1st.

 

Anyway, nobody mentioned a 3-way "platoon" (or whatever it would be called) between Murt-Floyd-Ward, they just talked about Floyd. If Ward has been acquired to spell Murton, then the damage is done and we should be more worried about the fact that Ward's numbers when healthy don't figure to be better than Murt's----possibly worse.

[goonys evil twin]

Even if Floyd is not acquired, Ward's still there and Lee/Soriano will still get their games. That will still leave Murton vulnerable, in your scenario. But it's got little to do with Floyd.

 

You don't see a difference between Murton fighting for time with Ward, and fighting for time with Ward and Floyd.

[Soul]

Is the consensus that Murton getting less than 450 PAs is bad over is good?

 

If not, what's your number?

 

It's not as simple as picking a number and saying good or bad. I think if Murton is only getting 300 PA, that's really bad, for anybody who wants Murton to be the regular LF soon. But if he's platooned with somebody who puts up a 900+ OPS in the other 400 LF PA, then it's not bad for the Cubs. It's about a balance.

 

Then I don't see what we're arguing. Floyd's last healthy season yielded a .863 OPS---close to your .900 bar. He hit 34 HR and had 98 RBIs in 2005. That's a decent injection of power.

 

If he's not healthy, then Murt plays anyway. If we want to throw Ward into the mix, then that's fine----I don't like that. But it's because WARD can't hold up the other end of the bargain, not Murt or Floyd.

 

A Murt/Floyd platoon just doesn't sound all that bad to me. Sure, it doesn't address CF, but I didn't think that's what we were talking about.

[Soul]

Even if Floyd is not acquired, Ward's still there and Lee/Soriano will still get their games. That will still leave Murton vulnerable, in your scenario. But it's got little to do with Floyd.

 

You don't see a difference between Murton fighting for time with Ward, and fighting for time with Ward and Floyd.

 

I do, but it's because Ward isn't up to par for that kind of situation, not Floyd or Murt.

 

I thought this thread was about complaining that we were acquiring Floyd. Sounds like the real beef should be with Ward.

[goonys evil twin]

Is the consensus that Murton getting less than 450 PAs is bad over is good?

 

If not, what's your number?

 

It's not as simple as picking a number and saying good or bad. I think if Murton is only getting 300 PA, that's really bad, for anybody who wants Murton to be the regular LF soon. But if he's platooned with somebody who puts up a 900+ OPS in the other 400 LF PA, then it's not bad for the Cubs. It's about a balance.

 

Then I don't see what we're arguing. Floyd's last healthy season yielded a .863 OPS---close to your .900 bar. He hit 34 HR and had 98 RBIs in 2005. That's a decent injection of power.

 

If he's not healthy, then Murt plays anyway. If we want to throw Ward into the mix, then that's fine----I don't like that. But it's because WARD can't hold up the other end of the bargain, not Murt or Floyd.

 

A Murt/Floyd platoon just doesn't sound all that bad to me. Sure, it doesn't address CF, but I didn't think that's what we were talking about.

 

You are making the assumption that Floyd is either not going to play, or play really well. I don't think it's that simple. There's a very real chance that he could see 400 PA and not be very good at all.

 

In general, the concern is that the Cubs could get and 825-850 OPS out of Murton alone, with the added benefit of getting him developed for the future. And that splitting Floyd/Murton/Ward, you might end up with a minimal improvement, say 840-875.

 

There is no guarantee that a Floyd who is is healthy enough to play, is going to be good.

 

Plus, there's the added concern that while we all know we need more offense, we're trying to add it in one of the few places we don't need much help.

[goonys evil twin]

Even if Floyd is not acquired, Ward's still there and Lee/Soriano will still get their games. That will still leave Murton vulnerable, in your scenario. But it's got little to do with Floyd.

 

You don't see a difference between Murton fighting for time with Ward, and fighting for time with Ward and Floyd.

 

I do, but it's because Ward isn't up to par for that kind of situation, not Floyd or Murt.

 

I thought this thread was about complaining that we were acquiring Floyd. Sounds like the real beef should be with Ward.

 

I thought the thread was about the Cubs interest in Floyd and the pros and cons that go along with it.

 

The beef is with splitting up Murton's potential 700 PA of solid production among 3 guys, who, when combined, might be no better than Murton alone. The negative to that is you have a need for help in other spots, and 3 guys who aren't going to play any other position. Plus, you are hurting Murton's value by putting the platoon player stigma on him, or, by failing to let him develop as a full-time player.

[Soul]

Even if Floyd is not acquired, Ward's still there and Lee/Soriano will still get their games. That will still leave Murton vulnerable, in your scenario. But it's got little to do with Floyd.

 

You don't see a difference between Murton fighting for time with Ward, and fighting for time with Ward and Floyd.

 

I do, but it's because Ward isn't up to par for that kind of situation, not Floyd or Murt.

 

I thought this thread was about complaining that we were acquiring Floyd. Sounds like the real beef should be with Ward.

 

I thought the thread was about the Cubs interest in Floyd and the pros and cons that go along with it.

 

The beef is with splitting up Murton's potential 700 PA of solid production among 3 guys, who, when combined, might be no better than Murton alone. The negative to that is you have a need for help in other spots, and 3 guys who aren't going to play any other position. Plus, you are hurting Murton's value by putting the platoon player stigma on him, or, by failing to let him develop as a full-time player.

 

I don't see why anyone would think a healthy Floyd would suck. From what I see, a healthy Floyd has historically been a productive Floyd. Why would that suddenly change?

 

As for a 3-man situation, I agree that would be stupid. I don't see where Piniella or anyone else has said they plan to 3-man ANY position, including LF. If they are, then no argument here.....dumb.

 

As for taking away Murt's precious at bats.....he's 24, with barely a year's experience under his belt. No danger of stunting his growth. None whatsoever.

[BigbadB]

Yeah, I'm not a Floyd hater. I'm just assessing the big picture with his arrival. He's not what the team needs right now.

 

Hendry should be shopping for a CFer, and I don't think it needs to be a "short term filler" if he can land a good one. Maybe there aren't any available, but I'd certainly see what it would take to get Baldelli or Crisp. And Church is still out there as an option.

[frostwyrm]

Hendry is so concerned with winning now to save his job that it's entirely possible he just doesn't care if he's screwing Murton's and the Cubs' future by not letting Murt have a chance to develop into a cost-effective everyday player for the Cubs.

[frostwyrm]

As for taking away Murt's precious at bats.....he's 24, with barely a year's experience under his belt. No danger of stunting his growth. None whatsoever.

 

With Floyd and Ward on the team there will be very few ABs for Murton vs. RHP. I don't see how sitting out a year vs. RHP could not stunt his growth.

[goonys evil twin]

I don't see why anyone would think a healthy Floyd would suck. From what I see, a healthy Floyd has historically been a productive Floyd. Why would that suddenly change?

 

As for a 3-man situation, I agree that would be stupid. I don't see where Piniella or anyone else has said they plan to 3-man ANY position, including LF. If they are, then no argument here.....dumb.

 

As for taking away Murt's precious at bats.....he's 24, with barely a year's experience under his belt. No danger of stunting his growth. None whatsoever.

 

Floyd wouldn't have to suck to make this a bad situation. Basically, they need him to produce a 900+ OPS against RHP for it to make sense. It's very possible that a 34 year old Floyd would be healthy enough to play in 80 games, get 350 PA, but only be somewhere around an 800 OPS. That's not helping the team from just playing Murton.

 

It doesn't matter if they "say" they are going to use a 3-man position. Murton, Floyd and Ward on the Cubs would guarantee that all 3 get some time in LF. Ward doesn't have to get 50 starts to account for part of the platoon, even if he gets 10, he's cutting in. And he will get 10.

 

Your claim that there is no danger of stunting his growth is completely bogus. There is clearly danger.

 

If Murton starts less than half the games, getting about 300 PA, that would very possibly stunt both his potential value in a trade, and his development as a player. Young guys need to keep playing a lot.

 

Note, I'm not predicting a disaster if Floyd comes aboard. Overall, I think it can be helpful. I just don't believe it'll help all that much, and I'm pointing out there could be serious drawbacks. This isn't a no-brainer good move by any stretch.

[daske17]

I'm confused and I haven't been able to find anything through this thread to quell it. Has there been any indication that the Cubs are looking to platoon Murton with anyone, let alone Floyd or Warde? Or is this just speculation?

 

In the press release announcing Warde, Hendry explicitly said that he sees him as the first pinch-hitter off the bench. And on top of that, he's had man-love for Murton since he first traded for him. It was more Dusty that reduced his role than anything.

 

If I'm off-base and have missed some reports I'd like to know. But if this is just speculation, then speculate away. . .

[b_wiggy_66]

I'm confused and I haven't been able to find anything through this thread to quell it. Has there been any indication that the Cubs are looking to platoon Murton with anyone, let alone Floyd or Warde? Or is this just speculation?

 

In the press release announcing Warde, Hendry explicitly said that he sees him as the first pinch-hitter off the bench. And on top of that, he's had man-love for Murton since he first traded for him. It was more Dusty that reduced his role than anything.

 

If I'm off-base and have missed some reports I'd like to know. But if this is just speculation, then speculate away. . .

 

Read the second sentence on this http://tinyurl.com/yllvyp which was on the first post.