Lou gives insight into the #2 spot

[TruffleShuffle]

It's not about OBP. It's about not having the opposing team pitch around Jones/Barrett. Jones gets eaten up by offspeed stuff. Having someone like Murton behind them ensures they don't get pitched around (offspeed stuff out of the zone).

 

Isn't it assumed that Jones hits 5th? If so, the worst hitter he has behing him is Barrett, which is fine.

 

Whoever in the 2 spot is going to be asked to put the ball on a certain side of the IF, moving Soriano along, maybe even sac bunting more than a handful of times. I don't want Murton's skillset wasted pulling that crap.

 

I don't want anybody pulling that crap. If you're bunting, then you've got Soriano on base, and he can just steal anyway. And what are you doing bunting Soriano to second, anyway? That means an automatic out, which isn't what you're looking for when you've got two really good hitters coming up. I'll take someone who can get on base and and score when Lee and ARam hit homers and doubles.

[fromthestretch]

It's not about OBP. It's about not having the opposing team pitch around Jones/Barrett. Jones gets eaten up by offspeed stuff. Having someone like Murton behind them ensures they don't get pitched around (offspeed stuff out of the zone).

 

Having Murton hit behind them doesn't ensure that at all. If a pitcher knows he can get Jones to chase bad pitches, he's going to continue to throw him bad pitches in most situations. Having Murton hitting behind him doesn't magically make Jones a more selective hitter.

[RichHillIsABeast]

It's not about OBP. It's about not having the opposing team pitch around Jones/Barrett. Jones gets eaten up by offspeed stuff. Having someone like Murton behind them ensures they don't get pitched around (offspeed stuff out of the zone).

 

Isn't it assumed that Jones hits 5th? If so, the worst hitter he has behing him is Barrett, which is fine.

 

Whoever in the 2 spot is going to be asked to put the ball on a certain side of the IF, moving Soriano along, maybe even sac bunting more than a handful of times. I don't want Murton's skillset wasted pulling that crap.

 

I don't want anybody pulling that crap. If you're bunting, then you've got Soriano on base, and he can just steal anyway. And what are you doing bunting Soriano to second, anyway? That means an automatic out, which isn't what you're looking for when you've got two really good hitters coming up. I'll take someone who can get on base and and score when Lee and ARam hit homers and doubles.

 

I would guess that Jones and Barrett will alternate lineup spots depending on how each player is hitting.

 

Piniella will play small ball. Count on it. Given that, I think we need a balanced lineup and I don't want Murton's ABs wasted sac bunting, or hitting to a certain side of the IF.

 

Putting Murton in the 2 hole would be great if we weren't going to play small ball. But we are. I'm not big on small ball either, but that's what we're going to get.

[RichHillIsABeast]

It's not about OBP. It's about not having the opposing team pitch around Jones/Barrett. Jones gets eaten up by offspeed stuff. Having someone like Murton behind them ensures they don't get pitched around (offspeed stuff out of the zone).

 

Having Murton hit behind them doesn't ensure that at all. If a pitcher knows he can get Jones to chase bad pitches, he's going to continue to throw him bad pitches in most situations. Having Murton hitting behind him doesn't magically make Jones a more selective hitter.

 

Nope, it means Jones gets more fastballs, which he can hit. You don't pitch Jones outside the zone (with offspeed stuff) when you have a guy behind him that can hurt you. Murton has pop and XBH potential.

[fromthestretch]

It's not about OBP. It's about not having the opposing team pitch around Jones/Barrett. Jones gets eaten up by offspeed stuff. Having someone like Murton behind them ensures they don't get pitched around (offspeed stuff out of the zone).

 

Having Murton hit behind them doesn't ensure that at all. If a pitcher knows he can get Jones to chase bad pitches, he's going to continue to throw him bad pitches in most situations. Having Murton hitting behind him doesn't magically make Jones a more selective hitter.

 

Nope, it means Jones gets more fastballs, which he can hit. You don't pitch Jones outside the zone (with offspeed stuff) when you have a guy behind him that can hurt you. Murton has pop and XBH potential.

 

In most situations, a pitcher with any confidence in his stuff isn't going to care whether it's Murton or Barrett or Izturis hitting behind Jones. He's going to have a plan of attack and stick to it. If he knows he can get Jones to chase a certain offspeed pitch, having Murton hitting behind him instead of Jones isn't going to make the pitcher too scared to throw that pitch.

[RichHillIsABeast]

It's not about OBP. It's about not having the opposing team pitch around Jones/Barrett. Jones gets eaten up by offspeed stuff. Having someone like Murton behind them ensures they don't get pitched around (offspeed stuff out of the zone).

 

Having Murton hit behind them doesn't ensure that at all. If a pitcher knows he can get Jones to chase bad pitches, he's going to continue to throw him bad pitches in most situations. Having Murton hitting behind him doesn't magically make Jones a more selective hitter.

 

Nope, it means Jones gets more fastballs, which he can hit. You don't pitch Jones outside the zone (with offspeed stuff) when you have a guy behind him that can hurt you. Murton has pop and XBH potential.

 

In most situations, a pitcher with any confidence in his stuff isn't going to care whether it's Murton or Barrett or Izturis hitting behind Jones. He's going to have a plan of attack and stick to it. If he knows he can get Jones to chase a certain offspeed pitch, having Murton hitting behind him instead of Jones isn't going to make the pitcher too scared to throw that pitch.

 

That's the difference between theory and practice. Watch decent hitters without lineup protection behind them. "Pitching around" someone isn't a made up concept. Sounds stupid, but it's done all the time.

[goonys evil twin]

That's the difference between theory and practice. Watch decent hitters without lineup protection behind them. You take your chances with the basehit over the walk, throwing more fastballs (obviously not exclusively). Sounds stupid, but it's done all the time. If you have a pitcher who has better control of a different pitch, then you throw that, but most ML pitcher command the fastball best.

 

Actually, the theory is lineup protection, when the facts have indicated that it really makes no difference.

[cheapseats]

That's the difference between theory and practice. Watch decent hitters without lineup protection behind them. You take your chances with the basehit over the walk, throwing more fastballs (obviously not exclusively). Sounds stupid, but it's done all the time. If you have a pitcher who has better control of a different pitch, then you throw that, but most ML pitcher command the fastball best.

 

Actually, the theory is lineup protection, when the facts have indicated that it really makes no difference.

 

Yep, there have been multiple studies with large sample sizes that indicate that "protection" doesn't make a meaningful difference on the MLB level. It might in lower levels of baseball, but not in the big leagues.

 

Izturis should hit 9th.

 

Does the DH have to bat for the pitcher in interleague games? With Z and Marquis in the rotation, I'd rather have someone hit for Izturis.

[fromthestretch]

It's not about OBP. It's about not having the opposing team pitch around Jones/Barrett. Jones gets eaten up by offspeed stuff. Having someone like Murton behind them ensures they don't get pitched around (offspeed stuff out of the zone).

 

Having Murton hit behind them doesn't ensure that at all. If a pitcher knows he can get Jones to chase bad pitches, he's going to continue to throw him bad pitches in most situations. Having Murton hitting behind him doesn't magically make Jones a more selective hitter.

 

Nope, it means Jones gets more fastballs, which he can hit. You don't pitch Jones outside the zone (with offspeed stuff) when you have a guy behind him that can hurt you. Murton has pop and XBH potential.

 

In most situations, a pitcher with any confidence in his stuff isn't going to care whether it's Murton or Barrett or Izturis hitting behind Jones. He's going to have a plan of attack and stick to it. If he knows he can get Jones to chase a certain offspeed pitch, having Murton hitting behind him instead of Jones isn't going to make the pitcher too scared to throw that pitch.

 

That's the difference between theory and practice. Watch decent hitters without lineup protection behind them. You take your chances with the basehit over the walk, throwing more fastballs (obviously not exclusively). Sounds stupid, but it's done all the time. If you have a pitcher who has better control of a different pitch, then you throw that, but most ML pitcher command the fastball best.

 

While most pitchers probably do have better command of their fastball than any other pitch, most hitters can hit a fastball better than any other pitch. Pitchers know this. They know Jacque has some trouble with certain pitches. I'll admit that there are certain situations where they probably will go after Jones in the strikezone rather than get him to chase a pitch. However, in most of his at-bats, pitchers will stick to their original plan of attack.

 

The number of fastballs Jones would see will not dramatically increase just because Murton is behind him.

[fromthestretch]

Does the DH have to bat for the pitcher in interleague games? With Z and Marquis in the rotation, I'd rather have someone hit for Izturis.

 

You can only DH for a pitcher.

[UK1679666180]

Having a power hitter like Soriano changes the game a little bit for the Cubs, the OBP for the #8 matters more for the Cubs than any other NL team.

 

With that said, if you have two hitters with similiar bat control and can spray the ball equally to all fields regardless of which hands they hit with. I think it would not be worth removing the better overall hitter with the better approach ahead of the heart of the order to help the btm of the order.

[Wheelimus]

Save a miracle, such as Cesar magically channeling Omar Vizquel and becoming good at a late age, him batting second is the stupidist idea since putting Neifi Perez there.

 

Especially when you consider you could dump Cesar, put Theriot in at short, and then putting the shortstop 2nd isn't such a stupid idea.

 

I sincerely hope that if Cesar sucks, they give it some thought.

[RichHillIsABeast]

That's the difference between theory and practice. Watch decent hitters without lineup protection behind them. You take your chances with the basehit over the walk, throwing more fastballs (obviously not exclusively). Sounds stupid, but it's done all the time. If you have a pitcher who has better control of a different pitch, then you throw that, but most ML pitcher command the fastball best.

 

Actually, the theory is lineup protection, when the facts have indicated that it really makes no difference.

 

Where are these facts?

[BigbadB]

I'll give you a fact. The Cubs have been horrible at scoring runs when a crap hitter like Izturis bats 2nd. Replace Izturis with all the horrible #2 hitters the Cubs have employed over the last 2 or 3 years and the result is the same. Poor run production.

 

We've played that game. It doesn't work. Let's try something else.

 

And it absolutely blows me away that a manager in the 21st century would even remotely consider batting someone as inept at batting as Cesar Izturis is ahead of your best productions guys, Lee and Ramirez.

 

Derrek Lee's 2005 season should have been evidence enough that you are really hurting the team's overall production when you bat guys like Corey Patterson and Neifi Perez at the top of the order for most of the season.

 

It's scary to think about how many RBI Derrek might have had if he got even semi-respectable OBP in front of him, rather than league worst. And if he actually had really good OBP guys in front of him that year, MVP would have easily been his. Fact!

[UK1679666180]

That's the difference between theory and practice. Watch decent hitters without lineup protection behind them. You take your chances with the basehit over the walk, throwing more fastballs (obviously not exclusively). Sounds stupid, but it's done all the time. If you have a pitcher who has better control of a different pitch, then you throw that, but most ML pitcher command the fastball best.

 

Actually, the theory is lineup protection, when the facts have indicated that it really makes no difference.

 

Where are these facts?

 

The best way to protect a hitter is to have a runner on in front of him.

[fromthestretch]

That's the difference between theory and practice. Watch decent hitters without lineup protection behind them. You take your chances with the basehit over the walk, throwing more fastballs (obviously not exclusively). Sounds stupid, but it's done all the time. If you have a pitcher who has better control of a different pitch, then you throw that, but most ML pitcher command the fastball best.

 

Actually, the theory is lineup protection, when the facts have indicated that it really makes no difference.

 

Where are these facts?

 

I'm sure the links to the studies have been posted numerous times. You could probably find the articles using google.

[TruffleShuffle]

Piniella will play small ball. Count on it.

 

Tampa ranked 9th, 10th and 9th among the 14 AL teams during his tenure there. The last time he managed an NL team (Reds in 1992), position players bunted only 33 times during the year, which was less than average, just by taking a cursory look at other teams.

[RichHillIsABeast]

I'll give you a fact. The Cubs have been horrible at scoring runs when a crap hitter like Izturis bats 2nd. Replace Izturis with all the horrible #2 hitters the Cubs have employed over the last 2 or 3 years and the result is the same. Poor run production.

 

We've played that game. It doesn't work. Let's try something else.

 

And it absolutely blows me away that a manager in the 21st century would even remotely consider batting someone as inept at batting as Cesar Izturis is ahead of your best productions guys, Lee and Ramirez.

 

Derrek Lee's 2005 season should have been evidence enough that you are really hurting the team's overall production when you bat guys like Corey Patterson and Neifi Perez at the top of the order for most of the season.

 

It's scary to think about how many RBI Derrek might have had if he got even semi-respectable OBP in front of him, rather than league worst. And if he actually had really good OBP guys in front of him that year, MVP would have easily been his. Fact!

 

Soriano is a very different player than Pierre. Soriano is not Pierre. Soriano is not Neifi. Putting DeRosa/Izturis in the 2 hole for the 2007 season isn't remotely the same thing as having two guys who couldn't get on base in front of Lee/Ramirez in 2005.

[goonys evil twin]

Soriano is a very different player than Pierre. Soriano is not Pierre. Soriano is not Neifi. Putting DeRosa/Izturis in the 2 hole for the 2007 season isn't remotely the same thing as having two guys who couldn't get on base in front of Lee/Ramirez in 2005.

 

Putting Izturis there would be very close to the same thing as what happened with Neifi and others there.

[RichHillIsABeast]

That's the difference between theory and practice. Watch decent hitters without lineup protection behind them. You take your chances with the basehit over the walk, throwing more fastballs (obviously not exclusively). Sounds stupid, but it's done all the time. If you have a pitcher who has better control of a different pitch, then you throw that, but most ML pitcher command the fastball best.

 

Actually, the theory is lineup protection, when the facts have indicated that it really makes no difference.

 

Where are these facts?

 

I'm sure the links to the studies have been posted numerous times. You could probably find the articles using google.

 

Whatever. You think batting Izturis behind DLee won't affect Lee's numbers? Of course lineup protection matters. It doesn't take a statistical study to figure out something that obvious.

[Wheelimus]

Actually, to me, having Soriano at the top of the order makes the #2 hitter even more important. 82 times last year Soriano was on second base, 41 times by a double, 41 times by a steal. That means you need someone in the 2 hole who can get hits, because any decent hit with Soriano on second is going to be a run.

 

DeRosa might be that guy, if 2006 is something he can repeat. Cesar, no doubt, is not.

[BigbadB]

Line up structure matters way more than line up protection.

 

Guys like Izturis should not bat 2nd. Ever.

[KingCubsFan]

That's the difference between theory and practice. Watch decent hitters without lineup protection behind them. You take your chances with the basehit over the walk, throwing more fastballs (obviously not exclusively). Sounds stupid, but it's done all the time. If you have a pitcher who has better control of a different pitch, then you throw that, but most ML pitcher command the fastball best.

 

Actually, the theory is lineup protection, when the facts have indicated that it really makes no difference.

 

Where are these facts?

 

I'm sure the links to the studies have been posted numerous times. You could probably find the articles using google.

 

Whatever. You think batting Izturis behind DLee won't affect Lee's numbers? Of course lineup protection matters. It doesn't take a statistical study to figure out something that obvious.

Lineup protection means Izturis would have better numbers because Lee is batting behind him. Lee's numbers would be affected because he'd basically have a pitcher hitting in front of him. So he'd get no RBI chances. That's a lineup order issue.

[UK1679666180]

That's the difference between theory and practice. Watch decent hitters without lineup protection behind them. You take your chances with the basehit over the walk, throwing more fastballs (obviously not exclusively). Sounds stupid, but it's done all the time. If you have a pitcher who has better control of a different pitch, then you throw that, but most ML pitcher command the fastball best.

 

Actually, the theory is lineup protection, when the facts have indicated that it really makes no difference.

 

Where are these facts?

 

I'm sure the links to the studies have been posted numerous times. You could probably find the articles using google.

 

Whatever. You think batting Izturis behind DLee won't affect Lee's numbers? Of course lineup protection matters. It doesn't take a statistical study to figure out something that obvious.

 

I think Lee's numbers would be worse having Izturis hitting in front of him rather than behind him.

 

But going from Jones to Murton to Jones to Barrett is minimal, if the Cubs were undecided about where to put Murton.

[frostwyrm]

Only argument for picking Izturis over Murton is to break up the RH bats. With Murton at #2 you have 4 RH hitters at the top of the lineup. I'd still prefer that to having a bum like Izturis bat in front of DLee and Aram.