Why NOT Adam Dunn? (Merged)

[ToupeeOnFire]

Explain.

 

By striking out as much as he does, he has to have an ungodly BABIP to maintain any kind of batting average. The high strikeouts directly contribute to his low BA. The low BA drags down his OBP and the lack of hits from not putting balls in play (even if they are just singles) affect his SLG.

 

The outs he makes by striking out are already accounted for in his OBP and SLG, therefore they cannot negate whatever OBP and SLG he has at the end of the season.

Yeah, but if he were making more contact and putting balls in play, some of those outs would turn into hits.

 

Negate might not have been the best choice of words, I never meant it in the active sense. I think we are arguing semantics here.

[tkenm356]

Explain.

 

By striking out as much as he does, he has to have an ungodly BABIP to maintain any kind of batting average. The high strikeouts directly contribute to his low BA. The low BA drags down his OBP and the lack of hits from not putting balls in play (even if they are just singles) affect his SLG.

 

The outs he makes by striking out are already accounted for in his OBP and SLG, therefore they cannot negate whatever OBP and SLG he has at the end of the season.

 

The cookie stand counts as an eatery, the eatery is apart of the food court!

 

Eateries that operate within the designated square downstairs count as food court. Anything outside, of said designated square, counts as an autonomous unit for mid-mall snacking.

 

Snoogans.

[ThePenguin11]

Holy Crap. Not another Adam Dunn thread! It seems like once a month this thing gets rehashed with the same arguments for and against him. Half the people here love him, the other half hate him. Until something substantial linking him to the Cubs comes up, there should be a moratorium on Adam Dunn trades.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Explain.

 

By striking out as much as he does, he has to have an ungodly BABIP to maintain any kind of batting average. The high strikeouts directly contribute to his low BA. The low BA drags down his OBP and the lack of hits from not putting balls in play (even if they are just singles) affect his SLG.

 

The outs he makes by striking out are already accounted for in his OBP and SLG, therefore they cannot negate whatever OBP and SLG he has at the end of the season.

Yeah, but if he were making more contact and putting balls in play, some of those outs would turn into hits.

 

Negate might not have been the best choice of words, I never meant it in the active sense. I think we are arguing semantics here.

 

Again, you can't look at the at bats in a vacuum like that. It's a result of the approach. If Dunn makes a concerted effort to get more singles by making more contact, that's going to impact all(or almost all) his at bats. That means more of his doubles and home runs become singles and ground outs, and ultimately, he's a worse offensive player because of it.

 

That's not to say that Dunn shouldn't try to improve, or that he has the perfect approach. But to say that "well he needs to make more contact because he'll end up with more hits" is misguided.

[Geech]

Holy Crap. Not another Adam Dunn thread! It seems like once a month this thing gets rehashed with the same arguments for and against him. Half the people here love him, the other half hate him. Until something substantial linking him to the Cubs comes up, there should be a moratorium on Adam Dunn trades.

 

The thread was clearly titled. You weren't tricked into opening and reading it by any kind of legerdemain.

[Backtobanks]

 

Anyways, Dunn, like Mike Bellhorn before him, tends to get overrated by some folk here simply because his skillset centers on aspects of the game the Cubs don't seem to put much stock in.

 

Yeah, and if the Cubs don't put stock in it then it must not be important. The Cubs have an unusually high need for OBP ability, because of their unusually low collection of OBP.

I never said OBP wasn't important, nor do I disagree about the Cubs' need for OBP. Just saying that because Dunn does excel at one skill that the Cubs frustratingly do not, many tend to overlook his high strikeout/low BA, his horrible defense, and a body-type that suggest he might not age gracefully. He seems to be the classic Bill Jamesian example of a young player with old man skills. Not saying that I wouldn't mind the Cubs picking him up and sticking him in left for a couple of years (his future is as a 1B/DH), but I don't value him as much as others seem to do.

 

I'm not a Dunn fan at all, but if they could get him very cheap then I'd take him. That will never happen, so I agree than we should quit discussing Dunn. The Reds would want way too much for him especially within the division.

[oldcubsfan]

Let's put this Dunn talk in perspective, if the Cubs get him, there is ONLY one position to hide his horrible defense and that position is taken by the fan favorite-Matt Murton. Dunn is the only LF that makes Murton look very good on defense. Funny how other teams don't seem to be as impressed by his OBP. He'll get traded, but you will be surprised how little they will actually get for him.

[swordsman]

Holy Crap. Not another Adam Dunn thread! It seems like once a month this thing gets rehashed with the same arguments for and against him. Half the people here love him, the other half hate him. Until something substantial linking him to the Cubs comes up, there should be a moratorium on Adam Dunn trades.

 

The thread was clearly titled. You weren't tricked into opening and reading it by any kind of legerdemain.

 

Get a new vocabulary list in class today? Or is it a word-a-day calendar?

[ToupeeOnFire]

Explain.

 

By striking out as much as he does, he has to have an ungodly BABIP to maintain any kind of batting average. The high strikeouts directly contribute to his low BA. The low BA drags down his OBP and the lack of hits from not putting balls in play (even if they are just singles) affect his SLG.

 

The outs he makes by striking out are already accounted for in his OBP and SLG, therefore they cannot negate whatever OBP and SLG he has at the end of the season.

Yeah, but if he were making more contact and putting balls in play, some of those outs would turn into hits.

 

Negate might not have been the best choice of words, I never meant it in the active sense. I think we are arguing semantics here.

 

Again, you can't look at the at bats in a vacuum like that. It's a result of the approach. If Dunn makes a concerted effort to get more singles by making more contact, that's going to impact all(or almost all) his at bats. That means more of his doubles and home runs become singles and ground outs, and ultimately, he's a worse offensive player because of it.

 

That's not to say that Dunn shouldn't try to improve, or that he has the perfect approach. But to say that "well he needs to make more contact because he'll end up with more hits" is misguided.

I wasn't saying that, I was just speaking hypothetically to illustrate a point. Hell, I thought the insistence by Dusty and the Cubs to get Corey Patterson to cut down the strikeouts at all costs was what screwed him up in '05. You can't turn a player into something he is not.

[Geech]

Get a new vocabulary list in class today? Or is it a word-a-day calendar?

 

No, I just really like the word.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Let's put this Dunn talk in perspective, if the Cubs get him, there is ONLY one position to hide his horrible defense and that position is taken by the fan favorite-Matt Murton. Dunn is the only LF that makes Murton look very good on defense. Funny how other teams don't seem to be as impressed by his OBP. He'll get traded, but you will be surprised how little they will actually get for him.

 

I don't know why you're convinced Murton is so terrible defensively. Statistically and everything I've seen of him he's been fine out there. Not that he wouldn't be below average in RF, but if it came with an offensive upgrade like Dunn it'd definitely be worth looking at.

 

And on how much he's valued, I don't think assuming the infallibility of MLB executives proves anything.

[wade]

Why not Dunn? Because someone here would have to change their name to Douchebag McGee.

 

I thought Detroit shoulda tried trading for Dunn instead of signing Casey(maybe they did and were rebuffed). He could have played first and the Tigers have young pitching to trade.

 

EDIT- and the Tigers need OBP almost as badly as the Cubs.

[cheapseats]

Dunn is the only LF that makes Murton look very good on defense.

 

Murton's Davenport Fielding Rate was five runs above average.

According to Chris Dial's metric, he was eight runs above average.

PMR also ranked Murton as one of the better left fielders in the NL.

 

Go ahead and insert "but my eyes tell me..." comments here.

[E.J.]

Dunn is the only LF that makes Murton look very good on defense.

 

Murton's Davenport Fielding Rate was five runs above average.

According to Chris Dial's metric, he was eight runs above average.

PMR also ranked Murton as one of the better left fielders in the NL.

 

Go ahead and insert "but my eyes tell me..." comments here.

 

But Dusty told me Murton was a bad fielder. That's why Dusty always took him out of the game in the 6th inning.

[BigbadB]

Murton can run circles defensively around Moises Alou.

[cheapseats]

Dunn is the only LF that makes Murton look very good on defense.

 

Murton's Davenport Fielding Rate was five runs above average.

According to Chris Dial's metric, he was eight runs above average.

PMR also ranked Murton as one of the better left fielders in the NL.

 

Go ahead and insert "but my eyes tell me..." comments here.

 

But Dusty told me Murton was a bad fielder. That's why Dusty always took him out of the game in the 6th inning.

 

Dusty didn't need stats to know that first inning sac bunts win ballgames, that Jacque Jones needed a fresh start to show he could hit lefties, and that pitch counts don't matter.

 

:-k

[ThePenguin11]

Holy Crap. Not another Adam Dunn thread! It seems like once a month this thing gets rehashed with the same arguments for and against him. Half the people here love him, the other half hate him. Until something substantial linking him to the Cubs comes up, there should be a moratorium on Adam Dunn trades.

 

The thread was clearly titled. You weren't tricked into opening and reading it by any kind of legerdemain.

 

At what point did I say I was tricked into opening this thread? Legerdemain?? For the record my post wasn't to call out the author of the thread, more to remind all participants how ugly this discussion is going to get because of how passionate both sides are to this argument. But I'll be sure to keep my eyes open for legerdemain in the future...

[CP_414]

Sign me up for Dunn. He would complete our offense.

 

CF Soriano

2B DeRosa

1B Lee

LF Dunn

3B Aramis

LF Murton

C Barrett

SS Izturis

 

It looks like there is no avoiding the Lilly signing. Then the Cubs are 1 starting pitcher and a few bench players away from being ready for spring training.

[Geech]

At what point did I say I was tricked into opening this thread? Legerdemain?? For the record my post wasn't to call out the author of the thread, more to remind all participants how ugly this discussion is going to get because of how passionate both sides are to this argument. But I'll be sure to keep my eyes open for legerdemain in the future...

 

You missed my point, so I guess I'll spell it out more carefully: You don't have to read the thread.

[ThePenguin11]

Holy Crap. Not another Adam Dunn thread! It seems like once a month this thing gets rehashed with the same arguments for and against him. Half the people here love him, the other half hate him. Until something substantial linking him to the Cubs comes up, there should be a moratorium on Adam Dunn trades.

 

The thread was clearly titled. You weren't tricked into opening and reading it by any kind of legerdemain.

 

Get a new vocabulary list in class today? Or is it a word-a-day calendar?

 

He's been waiting since April 23rd to use that one. Unfortunately it was a reach and in the context of my post, completely gratuitous.

[Mizzou]

I'd rather have Murton than Dunn.

[ThePenguin11]

At what point did I say I was tricked into opening this thread? Legerdemain?? For the record my post wasn't to call out the author of the thread, more to remind all participants how ugly this discussion is going to get because of how passionate both sides are to this argument. But I'll be sure to keep my eyes open for legerdemain in the future...

 

You missed my point, so I guess I'll spell it out more carefully: You don't have to read the thread.

 

And apparently you missed mine. So, in order to actually participate in this thread I'll say this: Dunn isn't bad, he isn't great, and any way you slice it the Reds are not going to trade him to the Cubs unless we pony up more than he's worth.

[Geech]

And apparently you missed mine. So, in order to actually participate in this thread I'll say this: Dunn isn't bad, he isn't great, and any way you slice it the Reds are not going to trade him to the Cubs unless we pony up more than he's worth.

 

What does any of that have to do with a moratorium on Dunn threads? Or was that your word of the day?

[J.R.]

We need Adam Dunn.

[cheapseats]

I'd rather have Murton than Dunn.

 

That's just crazy talk.