you can't blame Bartman

[biittner77]

Last night ESPN aired "The top 5 reasons you can't blame Steve Bartman for 2003". I know they've probably shown this before but this was the first time I've seen it. A few comments:

 

1 I thought ESPN did a good job placing the blame where it really belonged

 

2 Our own Bruce Miles really lit into Dusty Baker and rightfully so

 

3 I was disappointed that they didn't mention that Moises Alou has never gone into the stands to catch a ball in his whole life.

 

4 While I'm glad they blamed Bernie Mac I really wished they could have not played up the cursed angle as much as they did

[USSoccer]

I had seen it before, but watched it last night as well. My thoughts:

 

-I disagree wholeheartedly with their #1 reason. I don't believe the Marlins were a better team. We should have won that series in 4 games, maybe 5.

 

-Baker should have been the #3 reason, but they should have spent more time dissecting the abysmal managing job he did the entire series, starting in Game 1 with the decision to go Lowell v Guthrie, Game 2 leaving Prior in during a blowout for no reason, Game 6 for not coming out, and managing Game 7 with both hands wrapped around his neck (no Matt Clement, having Dave F. Veres come in to shut down a Marlin rally, leaving Wood in too long, and his poor PH decisions in innings 7 through 9.

 

-Alex Gonzalez should have been reason #2.

 

-Game 7 should have been reason #1. They led 5-3 after 5 innings, and had Matt Clement and Carlos Zambrano in the bullpen (both sinkerballers). They should have won that game.

 

Last year, I think, ESPN.com had an article by some guy who met Bartman and talked to him. It was a really well-written piece.

 

Also, this BP article is a good breakdown of Game 7:

 

http://www.baseball-analysis.com/article.php?articleid=2411

 

Quick: it's Game Seven. Your team is three innings away from being eliminated, you're still only down by two runs, but two men are on base. This is an absolute must-stop-this-rally-now moment... who do you bring in to pitch? If you're Dusty Baker, you bring in Veres, who on a normal day might be the Cubs' fifth-best reliever, and this clearly wasn't a normal day.

 

In the heat of the moment, I tried to be the voice of calm--hey, I'm still new to this Cub fandom thing--and in trying to find the rationale that no one else in the room could come up with, I pointed out that Veres was in to face just one batter, since the pitcher's spot in the lineup was due up in the bottom of the inning. I figured that since the batter was Alex Gonzalez, that Veres must have had tremendous success against right-handed batters this season, and only a massive platoon split inflated his ERA to the lofty heights that it had attained.

 

Well, he had a massive platoon split, alright. Right-handed hitters--like, say, Alex Gonzalez--batted .359/.379/.538 against Veres this year (lefties hit .174/.184/.326). And this was no sample size fluke; in nearly 200 innings between 2000 and 2002, Veres had more success against left-handed hitters than right-handers.

 

I did not have this information in front of me when Veres came in. Dusty did, and if he didn't, he should have. And if he didn't, he at least should have had this nugget of wisdom at his disposal: YOU DON'T BRING IN YOUR NINTH-BEST PITCHER WITH THE SEASON ON THE LINE.

[Abe Frohman]

That was such a good team. They had everything.

 

Except luck.

[J.R.]

Steve Bartman was a total screwup that night, but the Cubs were too.

 

I refuse to clear the names of either.

[kente777]

Let's not forgot that after Alou missed the ball, He threw down his glove screaming at the crowds....Prior was also coming unglued.

 

And where was Dusty when all this was going on? In the dugout, chewing on his damn toothpick. A smart manager would have come out, at a minimum, to calm down his pitcher. He would have also done so to give his bullpen more time to get ready.

 

Dusty Baker is the reason the curse still lives on. McKeon made Baker look like a little league manager.

 

Ken

[Abe Frohman]

I really think that Alou would have made that catch.

[Soriano12]

Alex Gonzales deserves most of the blame, just my opinion.

[Abe Frohman]

Alex Gonzales deserves most of the blame, just my opinion.

 

The whole team choked after his gaff. He does seem to escape criticism, doesn't he?

[Soriano12]

Alex Gonzales deserves most of the blame, just my opinion.

 

The whole team choked after his gaff. He does seem to escape criticism, doesn't he?

 

We tolerated his garbage bat, because he was pretty good defensively. But when we needed the glove the most, he choked.

[Abe Frohman]

Alex Gonzales deserves most of the blame, just my opinion.

 

The whole team choked after his gaff. He does seem to escape criticism, doesn't he?

 

We tolerated his garbage bat, because he was pretty good defensively. But when we needed the glove the most, he choked.

 

That's baseball.

 

If you remember, Alex had some pretty clutch hits that year. If I remember correctly, he had 2 or 3 game winning HR/hits in a week or two. He also hit well in the post season.

[apete6]

I almost just vomited at my desk even thinking about that series. It should have been a freaking sweep. That team was playing so well, it was the best 2 or 3 weeks of my life. I had just turned 21, still in college, lived 5 blocks from the stadium. Then that night happened...and I didn't get a job...then my parents got divorced. Freaking Cubs starting a chain of disaster. Anywho, here is my top 5

 

1. Gonzalez

2. Baker

3. Alou

4. Prior

5. Everyone else in uniform

 

6. Bartman.

 

That poor guy better be throwing out the first pitch for game 2 of the World Series this year when the Cubs are taking on the Yankees.

 

(Game 1 will be Ron Santo--if this season doesn't do him in first)

 

And, yes, I am predicting the NL will win the All Star Game this year, so Wrigley can host games 1 and 2 of the series...

[tkenm356]

Last year, I think, ESPN.com had an article by some guy who met Bartman and talked to him. It was a really well-written piece.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=bartman

 

It's all jumbled and not within a layout, but that's the article you mentioned

[Andy]

Alex Gonzales deserves most of the blame, just my opinion.

 

The whole team choked after his gaff. He does seem to escape criticism, doesn't he?

 

We tolerated his garbage bat, because he was pretty good defensively. But when we needed the glove the most, he choked.

 

That's baseball.

 

If you remember, Alex had some pretty clutch hits that year. If I remember correctly, he had 2 or 3 game winning HR/hits in a week or two. He also hit well in the post season.

He had 3 game-winning homers in a week to tie the Cubs' single-season record, and almost had a 4th a few days later (Geoff Jenkins robbed him at Miller Park in the game CPatt eventually won with a 16th-inning homer). I'm pissed at Gonzo for life for that grounder, but without those 3 homers we probably aren't even in the playoffs.

[Soriano12]

Steve Bartman was a total screwup that night

 

I also forgot to add, that is an igonrant statement ^^^^

[Brothaman33]

http://www.georgehernandez.com/h/aaBlog/2003/media/10_SteveBartmanAndMoisesAlou.jpg

 

Iunno i think he wouldve made that catch...

[USSoccer]

Iunno i think he wouldve made that catch...

 

From what I can recall he mistimed his leap. I think he had about a 50% chance at that ball, and it would have been in the webbing of the glove.

[radarluv1]

whoever said bartman should throw out the first pitch in a WS-thats a horrible idea. we dont need to bring up more curse talk at that point. maybe we let him do that at the opener for the next season after we win a WS, but that will never happen.

 

the main problem for me in blaming bartman is that the ball seemed to be coming back towards the field of play from the stands. everyone was turning backwards looking for the ball before it ended up in front of them. for that reason they probably coludnt realize that it could get back close to the field and be potentially caught in an instant like that. its not like they were leaning forward onto the field and just praying the ball made it to them. that and everyone else there was reaching for it too. just my 2 cents.

[cl smooth]

this thread depresses me.

 

i was at game 2...the night before my 21st birthday. and what a present! never seen so many people outside of wrigley field in cubbie blue...and jovial! i've been a cub fan since birth and that is, without question, the greatest feeling i ever felt being a cubs fan. just to see all those people around the chicagoland area and around the US (perhaps the WORLD?!) root for the cubs and cheer them on. game 6 and 7 were slugs to the chest...agon should have played that ground ball cleanly. how ironic is it that our gold-glove caliber shortshop botches it when we needed it the most. again, dusty should shoulder most of the blame because of bad managerial decisions. what could of been... :(

Edited December 1, 2006 by cl smooth

[Abe Frohman]

Iunno i think he wouldve made that catch...

 

From what I can recall he mistimed his leap. I think he had about a 50% chance at that ball, and it would have been in the webbing of the glove.

 

I don't think he mistimed his leap, kinda looked like he actually caught it. I think he was right on that ball.

[Omar]

Yet again, ESPN never fails to remind us of that incident. Thanks guys. :o

[tkenm356]

Yet again, ESPN never fails to remind us of that incident. Thanks guys. :o

 

I'm sure it wasn't any worse than the "Whose Curse is Worse" special where they had a judge, jury, and court defense lawyers present the Red Sox and Cubs case.

 

That was downright humiliatingly lame. They were really milking that cash cow for all it was worth

[Sammy Sofa]

Poor Bartman. Yeah, Alou had a shot at catching that, but pretty much anyone would have been trying to catch the ball in the heat of the moment. When you're in the stands like that and a ball is coming down, you're of course looking up at the ball and not down at the field. Everyone else in the stands in the photo is trying to catch it, too, so it's not like he did anything wrong or unusual. And while Mosies' tantrum was totally unecessary, I can see why it happened given that this is the Cubs and they were that close to finally going back to the WS after almost 60 years. It doesn't make it right, but I can see why he got so upset after such a weird happening in that setting. People make mistakes, so most of what happened just happened because human nature was involved...that said, given how much control he had, Dusty's actions and lack of action are basically inexcusable and A-Gon bobbling that ball is downright ridiculous. Yeah, he made a mistake, too, but it was a much more glaring one than the ball in the stands and could have ended the inning right there. Moises would have only gotten the 2nd out.

[Blizzau]

Poor Bartman. Yeah, Alou had a shot at catching that, but pretty much anyone would have been trying to catch the ball in the heat of the moment. When you're in the stands like that and a ball is coming down, you're of course looking up at the ball and not down at the field. Everyone else in the stands in the photo is trying to catch it, too, so it's not like he did anything wrong or unusual. And while Mosies' tantrum was totally unecessary, I can see why it happened given that this is the Cubs and they were that close to finally going back to the WS after almost 60 years. It doesn't make it right, but I can see why he got so upset after such a weird happening in that setting. People make mistakes, so most of what happened just happened because human nature was involved...that said, given how much control he had, Dusty's actions and lack of action are basically inexcusable and A-Gon bobbling that ball is downright ridiculous. Yeah, he made a mistake, too, but it was a much more glaring one than the ball in the stands and could have ended the inning right there. Moises would have only gotten the 2nd out.

 

I agree that Dusty's moves - or lack thereof - helped to finish off the NLCS for the Cubs that year. Your logic, however, in placing more blame on one position player over another seems flawed.

 

Alex Gonzales bobbled a ball, which happens occasionally in baseball. Even D-Lee will misplay a ball sometimes. Is it not human to err?

 

Moises, meanwhile, displayed an emotional outburst during the infamous play. It is also human to respond emotionally sometimes, no?

 

My logic tells me that mistakes happen, and it's fine for people (baseball players included) to make them. However, it is also up to professionals (again, including ballplayers) to behave professionally. Therefore, one could blame Moises for blowing up when he should have just trotted back out to LF and awaited the next play.

 

But it's all just water the bridge at this point, I suppose...

[USSoccer]

Whats funny is that the Alou incident set the stage for 2004 for be an absolute pressure cooker right from the start, and what should have been a 95 win team melted down in the end.

[jjgman21]

http://www.georgehernandez.com/h/aaBlog/2003/media/10_SteveBartmanAndMoisesAlou.jpg

 

Iunno i think he wouldve made that catch...

 

I honestly don't know how anyone can look at that picture and make a legitimate argument that the ball was in the stands.

 

fan interference, batter's out, Gonzo not hurrying to make a DP, batter's out. pen in, game over, on to the WS.