New Names on Hendry's Radar According to Bruce Levine

[goonys evil twin]

If we sign Counsell to replace Izturis, I'm on board. Craig is a much better hitter than Ceasar.

I'm not sure that will be the case next year.

 

I don't know. It's hard to be worse at the plate than Ceasar.

 

That's true, but in 2004, Counsell managed. And he was just as bad in 2003.

[jjgman21]

 

And yet Bynum, as bad as he is, was still better than Counsell last year, and younger and he's cheaper.

 

 

The discussion was that Counsell is supposedly on Hendry's radar, that's terrible news.

 

I really have no opinion on whether the 25th man is Bynum or Counsell. I'd prefer neither.

 

but what I want to know is, when making this comparison, why don't we hear about "the OBP component is the more important part of OPS." why don't we hear "Bynum never displayed that kind of power in the minor before and probably will never display it in the majors again" out of your?

 

why when arguing one player v. another, do these things that you often say in other comparisons suddenly fall away? are you more interested in winning an argument or hashing out who is the better player?

 

The OBP difference wasn't that big last year. If you are going to claim that a guy who will turn 37 next year, coming off a terrible season, after a series of bad ones, is a better option that whatever dirt cheap unproductive player you already have, then I would think a 21 point difference in OPS+ the previous season would be meaningful. It's not like Counsell is some OBP savant. He's drawn more walks in his career than you might think possible for such a poor hitter, but he's living off a career year in a WS season 6 seasons ago. Somebody tried to hand the "better" title to Counsell over Bynum without any evidence to support such a claim. I'd like it much more if neither set foot in the home dugout at Wrigley next season. There's no reason why Theriot can't handle the backup SS duties, and Cedeno should be next in line on that question.

 

again, no problem with the conclusion, just how you got there. I've gone round and round with you in the past saying that 19 points in OBP isn't that big of a difference, only to be told, whether directly or in not so many words, that I am an idiot. Bynum's OPS is almost exclusively attributed to his flukish display of power, yet for some reason in this debate you won't touch on that, whereas if the roles were reversed (ie Counsell showed a flukish display of power) I'm sure you would bring that flukishness up here.

 

there's basically zero difference between the impact the two would have on a team, but you're all fired up in your Bynum > Counsell expositions. they are both pretty crappy players and I'm not sure why teh debate over the two has gotten this much play on this board. I just want to see consistency in reasoning across the various comparisons we make between players, and that consistency seems to allude you in these debates.

 

another way of illustrating this is the Lugo debate. Counsell and Lugo have extrememly similar career paths by age. shouldn't you be railing against the dangers of signing Lugo considering your opinion of Counsell's career?

[goonys evil twin]

there's basically zero difference between the impact the two would have on a team, but you're all fired up in your Bynum > Counsell expositions.

 

another way of illustrating this is the Lugo debate. Counsell and Lugo have extrememly similar career paths by age. shouldn't you be railing against the dangers of signing Lugo considering your opinion of Counsell's career?

 

I'm fired up because I despise the idea of Counsell being a target.

 

 

I don't really buy the Lugo/Counsell comps, but I also am not much of a fan of Lugo. He's an upgrade over Izturis, but I don't see much benefit to having him play CF.

[waffle]

As someone who lives in Philly and watches the phils more then he would like.

 

Wolf - Raises my temperature not at all. Low ceiling kind of guy.

[Rob]

I'd rather have Wolf than Marquis, Meche, or Padilla... only after considering the costs.

 

I'd rather have Bynum than Counsell... but I've been rallying for Freddie Bynum to be non-tendered all offseason.

 

 

Blanco

Theriot

Floyd

Pagan

Moore

 

That's about the bench I'm looking at. I don't see why we'd want either Bynum or Counsell sitting on it.

[neely crenshaw]

i am not up for paying decent money to a free agent to be a role player. if he is going get 300-400 at bats(not the case) that's different.

we pay anyone any more that we pay theriot or cedeno or bynum...to play defense and run. get 1 start every 2 weeks..

 

wolfe sounds like he may be worth a gamble. he is on the up swing.

[UK1679666180]

Counsell>Izturis offensively. Defensively despite the glory of a GG, they're pretty close. Counsell doesn't get the attention of being a good defender moreso b/c of his versatility rather than inability.

 

The Cubs would be better off having Counsell at SS than Izturis.

[Mizzou]

I'd rather have Bynum than Counsell. Freddy isn't a bad guy to have on your team. If he can avoid the mental mistakes, he'll be a nice guy to have on the bench.

[USSoccer]

As a 25th man, Bynum gets the edge due to the fact he has the theoretical chance to improve, and that he's much cheaper than Counsell will end up being.

[UK1679666180]

Bynum won't improve with his approach at the plate, I'm not sure how he hit for so many XBH, I just don't see it happening again.

 

If the Cubs had a better SS than Izturis, I would be opposed to it. But if it's Izturis as the SS, ideally I'd give Theriot a shot, but I don't know how the Cubs view his lack of arm strength.

 

I'd much rather have Counsell starting than Izturis. Heck, Counsell had a bad year last year and it was about the same as the Cesar's best year.

[NorthsideAvenger]

Come on dudes, you're missing the point. Counsell could be the Cubs answer to David Eckstein, I mean....c'mon........the dude has WON two World Series championships in his career, so he's got to be good for something, right?

 

Right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(End of sarcastic post)

[CubColtPacer]

Bynum won't improve with his approach at the plate, I'm not sure how he hit for so many XBH, I just don't see it happening again.

 

If the Cubs had a better SS than Izturis, I would be opposed to it. But if it's Izturis as the SS, ideally I'd give Theriot a shot, but I don't know how the Cubs view his lack of arm strength.

 

I'd much rather have Counsell starting than Izturis. Heck, Counsell had a bad year last year and it was about the same as the Cesar's best year.

 

That wasn't exactly a bad year for Counsell. In fact, he's only broken a 700 OPS one time out of the last 5 years (same as Izturis). He has been more consistent than Izturis, but it certainly isn't enough to try to trade Izturis and sign Counsell.

[UK1679666180]

Bynum won't improve with his approach at the plate, I'm not sure how he hit for so many XBH, I just don't see it happening again.

 

If the Cubs had a better SS than Izturis, I would be opposed to it. But if it's Izturis as the SS, ideally I'd give Theriot a shot, but I don't know how the Cubs view his lack of arm strength.

 

I'd much rather have Counsell starting than Izturis. Heck, Counsell had a bad year last year and it was about the same as the Cesar's best year.

 

That wasn't exactly a bad year for Counsell. In fact, he's only broken a 700 OPS one time out of the last 5 years (same as Izturis). He has been more consistent than Izturis, but it certainly isn't enough to try to trade Izturis and sign Counsell.

 

His OBP over the last 5 years has been .337, Izturis who has played about 5 seasons worth of games has been at .295.

 

Personally, I would trade Izturis for almost anything.

[goonys evil twin]

Bynum won't improve with his approach at the plate, I'm not sure how he hit for so many XBH, I just don't see it happening again.

 

If the Cubs had a better SS than Izturis, I would be opposed to it. But if it's Izturis as the SS, ideally I'd give Theriot a shot, but I don't know how the Cubs view his lack of arm strength.

 

I'd much rather have Counsell starting than Izturis. Heck, Counsell had a bad year last year and it was about the same as the Cesar's best year.

 

That wasn't exactly a bad year for Counsell. In fact, he's only broken a 700 OPS one time out of the last 5 years (same as Izturis). He has been more consistent than Izturis, but it certainly isn't enough to try to trade Izturis and sign Counsell.

 

His OBP over the last 5 years has been .337, Izturis who has played about 5 seasons worth of games has been at .295.

 

Personally, I would trade Izturis for almost anything.

 

I would trade Izturis as well. But Counsell turns 37 next season. Counting on this season to be a minor setback is a huge risk without much upside. He's not an OBP stud or anything. He was decent in the department in the past, but he's an old has been that never really was.

[RynoRules]

Come on dudes, you're missing the point. Counsell could be the Cubs answer to David Eckstein, I mean....c'mon........the dude has WON two World Series championships in his career, so he's got to be good for something, right?

 

Right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(End of sarcastic post)

 

The dead horse called, and he wants you to stop beating him...dude.

[USSoccer]

Bynum won't improve with his approach at the plate, I'm not sure how he hit for so many XBH, I just don't see it happening again.

 

If the Cubs had a better SS than Izturis, I would be opposed to it. But if it's Izturis as the SS, ideally I'd give Theriot a shot, but I don't know how the Cubs view his lack of arm strength.

 

I'd much rather have Counsell starting than Izturis. Heck, Counsell had a bad year last year and it was about the same as the Cesar's best year.

 

That wasn't exactly a bad year for Counsell. In fact, he's only broken a 700 OPS one time out of the last 5 years (same as Izturis). He has been more consistent than Izturis, but it certainly isn't enough to try to trade Izturis and sign Counsell.

 

His OBP over the last 5 years has been .337, Izturis who has played about 5 seasons worth of games has been at .295.

 

Personally, I would trade Izturis for almost anything.

 

Neifi?

[UK1679666180]

Actually last year, his OPS was .674, over the last 5 years it has been .675.

 

While Izturis has had a .631.

 

Counsell will outproduce Izturis next year, I'm not crazy about Counsell, but he'll more than likely outperform Izturis (which isn't saying much).

[goonys evil twin]

Actually last year, his OPS was .674, over the last 5 years it has been .675.

 

While Izturis has had a .631.

 

Counsell will outproduce Izturis next year, I'm not crazy about Counsell, but he'll more than likely outperform Izturis (which isn't saying much).

 

OPS+ of 69 last year. And you are ignoring the fact that he turns 37. You'd be lucky to get him to duplicate last year's terrible season.

[UK1679666180]

Even with a potential decline, he'll outproduce Izturis.

[Guest]

good grief. someone lock this thread. we should never be so low as to have to discuss the merits of counsell versus izturis.

[CubColtPacer]

Even with a potential decline, he'll outproduce Izturis.

 

Possibly. If he does though, it will be by a very small amount. If you want to trade Izturis so badly, then why would you sign a player to replace him that is probably going to be exactly like him, and has probably lost a step in the field?

[UK1679666180]

Even with a potential decline, he'll outproduce Izturis.

 

Possibly. If he does though, it will be by a very small amount. If you want to trade Izturis so badly, then why would you sign a player to replace him that is probably going to be exactly like him, and has probably lost a step in the field?

 

I would want to replace him with someone better than Counsell, but I've seen Lugo and Counsell as the only two options mentioned. I'd love to see Lugo depending on cost vs. expected production, but I think Lugo will be a lesser priority compared to pitching and likely miss out on him.

 

Counsell will make less than Izturis and produce more. If they can trade Izturis and not eat salary, even by signing a marginal improvement for less in someone like Counsell, it is an upgrade by reducing payroll and whatever big or likely small they get in return for him to go along with whatever improvement Counsell brings.

 

I would rather deal with the 40 arm of Theriot at SS over both Izturis and Counsell and that includes that Theriot will not come close to what he did last year. But, he doesn't seem like an option.

[NorthsideAvenger]

Come on dudes, you're missing the point. Counsell could be the Cubs answer to David Eckstein, I mean....c'mon........the dude has WON two World Series championships in his career, so he's got to be good for something, right?

 

Right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(End of sarcastic post)

 

 

The dead horse called, and he wants you to stop beating him...dude.

 

 

What part of "end of sarcastic post" don't you get?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Come on dudes, you're missing the point. Counsell could be the Cubs answer to David Eckstein, I mean....c'mon........the dude has WON two World Series championships in his career, so he's got to be good for something, right?

 

Right?

 

 

 

 

QUOTES CONFUSE ME WHEN NOT DONE PROPERLY

 

 

(End of sarcastic post)

 

 

The dead horse called, and he wants you to stop beating him...dude.

 

 

What part of "end of sarcastic post" don't you get?

[b_wiggy_66]

I love that Wolfs name has been mentioned. I have been wanting Jim to get him all offseason. Wolf had TJ last year but has put up good numbers the last few years in a hitter friendly Philly park. I think of all the pitchers out there he will be by far the best bargain of the bunch. Saving money on him, while still getting a quality player, would leave us money to get someone like Schmidt.