Spending like this is only going to get us so far...

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Can people explain to this far younger than average Cub fan why this fan base has gotten so impaitent?

 

Why the idea of building through the draft and the farm system is so crazy?

 

Isn't the far more crazy way of doing things throwing alot of money at overrated or mediocre players and hoping for that "quick fix?"

 

I realize we "have the money." But so do the Yankees and Red Sox. So do alot of teams.

 

The difference between a good team with money and a bad team with money is HOW YOU SPEND IT. The Cubs have not even come close to spending wisely. They throw big money at a good but not franchise changing player, and then overpay for another over 30 player blocking two of our better position play prospect.

 

It's stupid, senseless stuff. Yes, we showed we can spend money and go after a big name. Great. He's a good player. He's a good player making money money than alot of great players.

 

Meanwhile smarter franchises with a much longer track records for success are heading in a completely different direction than we are.

 

The Red Sox, the Yankees, the Braves, the Indians, the Twins, and the A's are franchises that off the top of my head who have went and spent money on the draft and their farm systems. Why? Because idiots like Hendry and Colletti are giving good at best players big money.

 

In today's high salary market in baseball, the best bet for long term success is through your farm system. Instead the Cubs have went in the exact opposite direction, and we probably have one of the lesser farm systems in the league.

 

This offseason has told me alot about Hendry and the Trib. It may be great to them that they have a decent chance to look good when they leave, but that Soriano contract won't look good in a few years. Meanwhile we get to watch the Yankees bring up Phillip Hughes and friends, the Twins play with Santana, Liriano, Mauer, and friends, while we spend spend spend on aging stars.

 

I really hope this spending stops. I realize I'm not an old Cubs fan, I haven't been waiting for a million years like most people. But long term success through the farm system has always worked if done right. It takes money to start up, but young, cheap, good players are a premium these days. Guess how many the Cubs have?

 

A long term business MUST have a direction, MUST have a plan. The Cubs don't. It's why I'm hoping when Hendry is gone someone with a long term goal comes in. Paul DePodesta, Logan White, Grady Fuson, anyone like that. Anyone with half a brain and a plan to be better, younger, and cheaper.

 

Anyway, the only upcoming FA who deserves the money Soriano got (and then some) is Miguel Cabrera in a couple years.

[Derwood]

Name me the last World Series winner whose team was comprised mainly of homegrown talent

[Guest]

Name me the last World Series winner whose team was comprised mainly of homegrown talent

Yankees

[goonys evil twin]

The Cubs needed players. Signing guys is better than trading for guys, because you get to keep your prospects.

 

However, the Cubs have shown they are pretty bad at developing their own guys, so going outside the organization ain't a bad idea. There are many ways to win. I think the only way to have sustained success is through organic growth (developing your own), but any team can have a good 2-4 year run based almost entirely on outsiders.

 

The Cubs financial situation provides an opportunity to buy others' finished products while still developing their own.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Don't forget the Marlins with Cabrera, Beckett, Willis, and traded for young guys such as Lee, Burnett, Pavano, Penny, and others while they were still prospects.

 

Or the Angels with Troy Glaus, Lackey, K-Rod, Anserson, and others.

 

And seriously, notice the trend in all the big contenders? All of them are looking to their farm systems now. It's an expensive world.

 

And Tim, the Yankees are a great example. Because of these 2000's, people underrate how good they were at developing top talent in the 90's.

[WrigleyField 22]

Well although we have struggled as of late to develop talent, I don't see any signs to us abandoning it. We can do both at once. In fact spending can help in the draft with guys like Smajazkdfdfwsjflada and Huesby. Its not like we have been giving away good prospects so far this offseason.

 

We can spend big and develop the farm system. The hiring of Wilken and rumors that we are looking more oversees (Japan etc) shoud help to bolster our farm system in the future.

[Backtobanks]

Can people explain to this far younger than average Cub fan why this fan base has gotten so impaitent?

 

Why the idea of building through the draft and the farm system is so crazy?Isn't the far more crazy way of doing things throwing alot of money at overrated or mediocre players and hoping for that "quick fix?"

 

I realize we "have the money." But so do the Yankees and Red Sox. So do alot of teams.

 

The difference between a good team with money and a bad team with money is HOW YOU SPEND IT. The Cubs have not even come close to spending wisely. They throw big money at a good but not franchise changing player, and then overpay for another over 30 player blocking two of our better positoin play prospect.

 

It's stupid, senseless stuff. Yes, we showed we can spend money and go after a big name. Great. He's a good player. He's a good player making money money than alot of great players.

 

Meanwhile smarter franchises with a much longer track records for success are heading in a completely different direction than we are.

 

The Red Sox, the Yankees, the Braves, the Indians, the Twins, and the A's are franchises that off the top of my head who have went and spent money on the draft and their farm systems. Why? Because idiots like Hendry and Colletti are giving good at best players big money.

 

In today's high salary market in baseball, the best bet for long term success is through your farm system. Instead the Cubs have went in the exact opposite direction, and we probably have one of the lesser farm systems in the league.

 

This offseason has told me alot about Hendry and the Trib. It may be great to them that they have a decent chance to look good when they leave, but that Soriano contract won't look good in a few years. Meanwhile we get to watch the Yankees bring up Phillip Hughes and friends, the Twins play with Santana, Liriano, Mauer, and friends, while we spend spend spend on aging stars.

 

I really hope this spending stops. I realize I'm not an old Cubs fan, I haven't been waiting for a million years like most people. But long term success through the farm system has always worked if done right. It takes money to start up, but young, cheap, good players are a premium these days. Guess how many the Cubs have?

 

A long term business MUST have a direction, MUST have a plan. The Cubs don't. It's why I'm hoping when Hendry is gone someone with a long term goal comes in. Paul DePodesta, Logan White, Grady Fuson, anyone like that. Anyone with half a brain and a plan to be better, younger, and cheaper.

 

Anyway, the only upcoming FA who deserves the money Soriano got (and then some) is Miguel Cabrera in a couple years.

 

 

Building from the draft and developing a great farm system takes time and when you have basically a loser for 100 years, you become impatient. The Cubs farm system seems to be doing okay with pitchers, but has been horrible at developing position players. As for the Yankees, they probably have one of the worst farm systems in baseball because they continue to trade prospects for the established stars that they didn't buy through free agency. The ideal situation is to have a strong farm system, develop your own players, and then fill in a few spots with trades and free agents. That is the exception and not the rule in baseball in 2006.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

The Cubs needed players. Signing guys is better than trading for guys, because you get to keep your prospects.

 

However, the Cubs have shown they are pretty bad at developing their own guys, so going outside the organization ain't a bad idea. There are many ways to win. I think the only way to have sustained success is through organic growth (developing your own), but any team can have a good 2-4 year run based almost entirely on outsiders.

 

The Cubs financial situation provides an opportunity to buy others' finished products while still developing their own.

 

Unfortunately, the Cubs have shown themselves to be an irresponsible, and poorly run orginization.

 

We need players, we have money. Thats a good mix. Unfortuantely the results are disturbing. Overpay for our role players, and then sign a big name but not great player to a franchsie record contract.

 

Next we might make a run at Schmidt or Zito. Zito isn't even that good. Schmidt has declined in both performance and stuff, and he's been hit with injuries lately.

 

Risks are everywhere, these are just far bigger, more expensive, and older risks.

 

As for the Yankees, they probably have one of the worst farm systems in baseball because they continue to trade prospects for the established stars that they didn't buy through free agency.

 

Yea, that's so 5 years ago. They now boast arguably the top pitching prospect in the game, have a top OF prospect on the rise, and have invested in young pitching in the farm system.

 

Look at the teams on the rise. The Brewers have built their whole team from the farm system pretty much. The Marlins brought in a whole lot of good, young talent and were far better than us last year and for years to come. There are examples everywhere, far more than for the spend a ton group.

[Backtobanks]

The Cubs needed players. Signing guys is better than trading for guys, because you get to keep your prospects.

 

However, the Cubs have shown they are pretty bad at developing their own guys, so going outside the organization ain't a bad idea. There are many ways to win. I think the only way to have sustained success is through organic growth (developing your own), but any team can have a good 2-4 year run based almost entirely on outsiders.

 

The Cubs financial situation provides an opportunity to buy others' finished products while still developing their own.

 

Unfortunately, the Cubs have shown themselves to be an irresponsible, and poorly run orginization.

 

We need players, we have money. Thats a good mix. Unfortuantely the results are disturbing. Overpay for our role players, and then sign a big name but not great player to a franchsie record contract.

 

Next we might make a run at Schmidt or Zito. Zito isn't even that good. Schmidt has declined in both performance and stuff, and he's been hit with injuries lately.

 

Risks are everywhere, these are just far bigger, more expensive, and older risks.

 

As for the Yankees, they probably have one of the worst farm systems in baseball because they continue to trade prospects for the established stars that they didn't buy through free agency.

 

Yea, that's so 5 years ago. They now boast arguably the top pitching prospect in the game, have a top OF prospect on the rise, and have invested in young pitching in the farm system.

Look at the teams on the rise. The Brewers have built their whole team from the farm system pretty much. The Marlins brought in a whole lot of good, young talent and were far better than us last year and for years to come. There are examples everywhere, far more than for the spend a ton group.

 

And yet go out and buy every available free agent that they can get.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

And yet go out and buy every available free agent that they can get.

 

Who was the last big name FA they signed? Sheffield?

 

Ever since Cashman got full control, that franchise has been heading towards younger and cheaper.

 

They also use their prospects in a way that best helps them. They traded a bunch of athletes for Bobby Abreu. They traded Soriano and Arias, a toolsy SS prospect that was highly regarded at the time for ARod.

 

They graduated Pettite, Williams, Jeter, Rivera, and many others during the 90's.

 

Thats the one part of that orginization that I respect. They are far smarter than given credit for.

[Fro]

There's two reasonable choices for the next two years, because after that, Prior, Z, Barrett, etc won't be under market value after that window closes.

 

1) Go for it in the next two years and spend a ton of money

2) Trade off the whole dang team and rebuild

 

If you want to completely squander Zambrano, Prior, Lee, Aram, Barrett, and Wood, and start over with counting on Rich Hill and Felix Pie to be all-stars, be my guest. But this seems to be a more sensible option, especially considering the organization that's in place right now.

[soccer10k]

Once again, the answer is much simpler.

 

98

 

That and the fact that the Cubs have gone from 5 outs away from the World Series to worst record in the NL in just 3 years.

[UK1679666180]

Why the idea of building through the draft and the farm system is so crazy?

 

I believe this has been mentioned on this board before.

[SouthSideRyan]

Explain how this winter we're supposed to build a team by developing prospects. Unless your plan is to trade everyone worth anything on the team for prospects, there's nothing else to do. When the Cubs are trading prospects for mediocrities(HI JUAN!!) that's the time to complain. The fact that they handed out a big FA contract really doesn't affect our weak farm system at all.

[UK1679666180]

Explain how this winter we're supposed to build a team by developing prospects. Unless your plan is to trade everyone worth anything on the team for prospects, there's nothing else to do. When the Cubs are trading prospects for mediocrities(HI JUAN!!) that's the time to complain. The fact that they handed out a big FA contract really doesn't affect our weak farm system at all.

 

I believe I mentioned it long before this Winter, so yes, had they cont'd the path they were on pre '03, I doubt they would've had to spend 125 mil to improve a 66 win club.

 

Random point, if anyone mentions Hill, Choi, etc. Who did Choi and Hill net the Cubs? The ability to trade prospects is almost as important (the only reason it is less is b/c of financial reason, but the risk of failure is obviously greater w/those prospects).

 

The farm system has been in free fall long before this past Summer.

[RynoRules]

Name me the last World Series winner whose team was comprised mainly of homegrown talent

Yankees

 

Do you mean the 50's Yankees? :wink:

 

Depends on how you define "mainly", Tim. if "mainly" is "half or more", you have to look back to the 96' team to get close. Here are the major contributors from that year, position players first:

 

C Joe Girardi - nope

1B *Tino Martinez - nope

2B Mariano Duncan - nope

3B *Wade Boggs - nope

SS Derek Jeter - yup

LF Gerald Williams - yup

CF #Bernie Williams - yup

RF *Paul O'Neill - nope

DH #Ruben Sierra - nope

 

Jim Leyritz - yup

Darryl Strawberry - nope

Tim Raines - nope

Cecil Fielder - nope

Andy Fox - yup

Ruben Rivera - yup

Charlie Hayes - nope

 

Total Position Player tally: "Nopes win", 10 - 5.

 

Now the picthers:

 

SP *Andy Pettitte - yup

SP *Jimmy Key - nope

SP *Kenny Rogers - nope

SP Dwight Gooden - nope

SP David Cone - nope

SP Ramiro Mendoza - yup

 

CL John Wetteland - nope

RP Jeff Nelson - nope

RP Mariano Rivera - yup

RP Bob Wickman - yup

RP *Dale Polley - yup

Brian Boehringer - yup

Jim Mecir - nope

 

Total Pitchers tally: "Nopes" and "Yups" tie, 6-6

 

Total Roster Tally: "Nopes" win, 16-11.

 

Therefore the majority of the Yankee's 1996 roster was not homegrown.

 

Off hand, I'd wager that you'd have to go back to the 90' Reds or 91' Twins to find a roster where the majority of players came up with the team.

[UK1679666180]

Angels...

 

Salmon, Erstad, Molina, Anderson, Eckstein, Lackey, Washburn, Ortiz, etc.

[A New Era]

Can people explain to this far younger than average Cub fan why this fan base has gotten so impaitent?

 

Why the idea of building through the draft and the farm system is so crazy?

 

Isn't the far more crazy way of doing things throwing alot of money at overrated or mediocre players and hoping for that "quick fix?"

 

I realize we "have the money." But so do the Yankees and Red Sox. So do alot of teams.

 

The difference between a good team with money and a bad team with money is HOW YOU SPEND IT. The Cubs have not even come close to spending wisely. They throw big money at a good but not franchise changing player, and then overpay for another over 30 player blocking two of our better position play prospect.

 

It's stupid, senseless stuff. Yes, we showed we can spend money and go after a big name. Great. He's a good player. He's a good player making money money than alot of great players.

 

Meanwhile smarter franchises with a much longer track records for success are heading in a completely different direction than we are.

 

The Red Sox, the Yankees, the Braves, the Indians, the Twins, and the A's are franchises that off the top of my head who have went and spent money on the draft and their farm systems. Why? Because idiots like Hendry and Colletti are giving good at best players big money.

 

In today's high salary market in baseball, the best bet for long term success is through your farm system. Instead the Cubs have went in the exact opposite direction, and we probably have one of the lesser farm systems in the league.

 

This offseason has told me alot about Hendry and the Trib. It may be great to them that they have a decent chance to look good when they leave, but that Soriano contract won't look good in a few years. Meanwhile we get to watch the Yankees bring up Phillip Hughes and friends, the Twins play with Santana, Liriano, Mauer, and friends, while we spend spend spend on aging stars.

 

I really hope this spending stops. I realize I'm not an old Cubs fan, I haven't been waiting for a million years like most people. But long term success through the farm system has always worked if done right. It takes money to start up, but young, cheap, good players are a premium these days. Guess how many the Cubs have?

 

A long term business MUST have a direction, MUST have a plan. The Cubs don't. It's why I'm hoping when Hendry is gone someone with a long term goal comes in. Paul DePodesta, Logan White, Grady Fuson, anyone like that. Anyone with half a brain and a plan to be better, younger, and cheaper.

 

Anyway, the only upcoming FA who deserves the money Soriano got (and then some) is Miguel Cabrera in a couple years.

 

Would you like to win the world series in 2007 or in 2015? Just curious. The Cubs are taking the steps to improve the farm system now. I'd just like to know if you would rather win in 2007, 2008, or would you rather complain that we are spending too much money?

[UK1679666180]

Would you like to win the world series in 2007 or in 2015? Just curious. The Cubs are taking the steps to improve the farm system now. I'd just like to know if you would rather win in 2007, 2008, or would you rather complain that we are spending too much money?

 

They have a long way to go before they even become a playoff contender in '07, before even thinking about them winning a WS.

 

The Cubs still have to improve the product on the current field now. And they'll have to improve the future product from within the system. They can do both and it'll be easier for them to improve the product short-term, but to maintain long-term success they have to improve the farm system.

[A New Era]

Would you like to win the world series in 2007 or in 2015? Just curious. The Cubs are taking the steps to improve the farm system now. I'd just like to know if you would rather win in 2007, 2008, or would you rather complain that we are spending too much money?

 

They have a long way to go before they even become a playoff contender in '07, before even thinking about them winning a WS.

 

The Cubs still have to improve the product on the current field now. And they'll have to improve the future product from within the system. They can do both and it'll be easier for them to improve the product short-term, but to maintain long-term success they have to improve the farm system.

 

I'll be happy them using short term fixes to win us deserving a WS, NOW. And go through a handful of years fixing the team up from within. That's my whole point. I want a ws SOON and I like what they are doing NOW.

[Soriano12]

Can people explain to this far younger than average Cub fan why this fan base has gotten so impaitent?

 

Why the idea of building through the draft and the farm system is so crazy?

 

Isn't the far more crazy way of doing things throwing alot of money at overrated or mediocre players and hoping for that "quick fix?"

 

I realize we "have the money." But so do the Yankees and Red Sox. So do alot of teams.

 

The difference between a good team with money and a bad team with money is HOW YOU SPEND IT. The Cubs have not even come close to spending wisely. They throw big money at a good but not franchise changing player, and then overpay for another over 30 player blocking two of our better position play prospect.

 

It's stupid, senseless stuff. Yes, we showed we can spend money and go after a big name. Great. He's a good player. He's a good player making money money than alot of great players.

 

Meanwhile smarter franchises with a much longer track records for success are heading in a completely different direction than we are.

 

The Red Sox, the Yankees, the Braves, the Indians, the Twins, and the A's are franchises that off the top of my head who have went and spent money on the draft and their farm systems. Why? Because idiots like Hendry and Colletti are giving good at best players big money.

 

In today's high salary market in baseball, the best bet for long term success is through your farm system. Instead the Cubs have went in the exact opposite direction, and we probably have one of the lesser farm systems in the league.

 

This offseason has told me alot about Hendry and the Trib. It may be great to them that they have a decent chance to look good when they leave, but that Soriano contract won't look good in a few years. Meanwhile we get to watch the Yankees bring up Phillip Hughes and friends, the Twins play with Santana, Liriano, Mauer, and friends, while we spend spend spend on aging stars.

 

I really hope this spending stops. I realize I'm not an old Cubs fan, I haven't been waiting for a million years like most people. But long term success through the farm system has always worked if done right. It takes money to start up, but young, cheap, good players are a premium these days. Guess how many the Cubs have?

 

A long term business MUST have a direction, MUST have a plan. The Cubs don't. It's why I'm hoping when Hendry is gone someone with a long term goal comes in. Paul DePodesta, Logan White, Grady Fuson, anyone like that. Anyone with half a brain and a plan to be better, younger, and cheaper.

 

Anyway, the only upcoming FA who deserves the money Soriano got (and then some) is Miguel Cabrera in a couple years.

 

Are you by any chance Andy MacPhail?

[UK1679666180]

But, it's going to take a lot more to get them there. What they're doing now, might not lead to anything.

 

I like what they've done overall this off-season as well as increasing the payroll. But, there have been better teams than the Cubs will field in '07 that did not make the playoffs. If they get lucky and win one and are never heard from again great, but they should be looking to win for the next 10 years rather than just next year, the only way to have a chance at doing that is thru the farm system, which has to be rebuilt.

[SouthSideRyan]

Explain how this winter we're supposed to build a team by developing prospects. Unless your plan is to trade everyone worth anything on the team for prospects, there's nothing else to do. When the Cubs are trading prospects for mediocrities(HI JUAN!!) that's the time to complain. The fact that they handed out a big FA contract really doesn't affect our weak farm system at all.

 

I believe I mentioned it long before this Winter, so yes, had they cont'd the path they were on pre '03, I doubt they would've had to spend 125 mil to improve a 66 win club.

 

Random point, if anyone mentions Hill, Choi, etc. Who did Choi and Hill net the Cubs? The ability to trade prospects is almost as important (the only reason it is less is b/c of financial reason, but the risk of failure is obviously greater w/those prospects).

 

The farm system has been in free fall long before this past Summer.

 

I guess I really don't understand the point then. It's not like the Cubs just aren't drafting anyone when their turn comes up. They've done a poor job developing talent at the minor leagues, that's the cause of spending big money on FAs, not the effect.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

But there's more to player development and scouting than the U.S., Canada and Puerto Rico. Talent from Latin America and the Pacific Rim could offset failed draft picks and domestic player development.

[RynoRules]

Angels...

 

Salmon, Erstad, Molina, Anderson, Eckstein, Lackey, Washburn, Ortiz, etc.

 

Definitely the exception and not the rule in the last 10-15 years.