Cubs sign Soriano

[David]

Can someone post Soriano's career numbers at Wrigley? Im currious and not sure where to look for them. If the physical cleared and Aram is flying in tuesday for his own news conference why not just have them both at the same conference?

 

In 25AB:

 

.360 .407 .840 1.247

 

Not bad at all...

 

 

Look at the numbers he put up in the cemetary which is RFK...With Sorianos bat speed and power, I bet alot of pop ups will land in the bleachers on windy days..Hes teared it up at wrigley in his 2 visits..I could see him hitting over 50 HR's in wrigley..

 

On the other hand, he was at Arlington for a couple of seasons and didn't put up any eye-popping numbers.

[soccer10k]

Apparently, Soriano passed his physical, he likes Chicago, negotiations went quickly, he hasn't spoken to Aramis yet who is flying up tomorrow for his press conference, and - oh yeah - sources tell Paul Sullivan that the Cubs may put Soriano in right and swap Jock to center.

 

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-061120cubssoriano,1,288880.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

 

The Cubs are in talks with Cliff Floyd, the nature of which Sullivan describes as 'heated'. Presumably, he'll platoon with Murton. Not sure if I am crazy about that idea.

 

the only reason that doesn't bother me yet is that it's sullivan saying it. bruce would be another thing.

 

Which part are you talking about - Soriano in right or Cliff Floyd? Bruce has reported that Soriano could be playing RF.

[erik316wttn]

Can someone post Soriano's career numbers at Wrigley? Im currious and not sure where to look for them. If the physical cleared and Aram is flying in tuesday for his own news conference why not just have them both at the same conference?

 

In 25AB:

 

.360 .407 .840 1.247

 

Not bad at all...

yeah, but that was against Cubs pitching

 

People never seem to look at that side of "Oh, well he hits well in Wrigley".

[Shilzzz]

Apparently, Soriano passed his physical, he likes Chicago, negotiations went quickly, he hasn't spoken to Aramis yet who is flying up tomorrow for his press conference, and - oh yeah - sources tell Paul Sullivan that the Cubs may put Soriano in right and swap Jock to center.

 

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-061120cubssoriano,1,288880.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

 

The Cubs are in talks with Cliff Floyd, the nature of which Sullivan describes as 'heated'. Presumably, he'll platoon with Murton. Not sure if I am crazy about that idea.

 

the only reason that doesn't bother me yet is that it's sullivan saying it. bruce would be another thing.

 

Which part are you talking about - Soriano in right or Cliff Floyd? Bruce has reported that Soriano could be playing RF.

 

i know bruce was the first to report the right field thing...

 

was speaking more about the floyd talk. that would be terrible.

[PrimeTime]

Can someone post Soriano's career numbers at Wrigley? Im currious and not sure where to look for them. If the physical cleared and Aram is flying in tuesday for his own news conference why not just have them both at the same conference?

 

In 25AB:

 

.360 .407 .840 1.247

 

Not bad at all...

yeah, but that was against Cubs pitching

 

People never seem to look at that side of "Oh, well he hits well in Wrigley".

 

 

Some guys just hit really good at certain parks...Thats why I wouldnt mind C Lee here, hes a monster at Wrigley with over a 1.000 OPS...I rember hated playing Abreu when he was on the Phillies whenever he came here..He destroyed us every at bat pretty much..Also Beltran was a monster at Wrigley...Lot of guys just do really good in a certain place and atmosphere

[CubinNY]

Can someone post Soriano's career numbers at Wrigley? Im currious and not sure where to look for them. If the physical cleared and Aram is flying in tuesday for his own news conference why not just have them both at the same conference?

 

In 25AB:

 

.360 .407 .840 1.247

 

Not bad at all...

yeah, but that was against Cubs pitching

 

People never seem to look at that side of "Oh, well he hits well in Wrigley".

 

 

Some guys just hit really good at certain parks...Thats why I wouldnt mind C Lee here, hes a monster at Wrigley with over a 1.000 OPS...I rember hated playing Abreu when he was on the Phillies whenever he came here..He destroyed us every at bat pretty much..Also Beltran was a monster at Wrigley...Lot of guys just do really good in a certain place and atmosphere

 

I think you would have more of a case if Carlos Lee played for the Cubs previously.

 

You cannot separate the pitcher from the team.

[EastonBlues22]

I haven't read all 98 pages of this so pardon me if this has been brought up before:

 

For those complaining about still paying him $17 million when he's 38 years old, how do we know that in the 2014 market that won't be a bargain? At the rate salaries are increasing, backup catchers may be making $8 or $9 million a year by then (and superstars making $25million+).

 

This is a good point. Some of the contracts that seemed way out of line when they were signed, are looking better now. Player contracts are trending up so it might take some of the sting off this one, down the road.

 

That's what people thought when Hampton, Giambi, Jeter, and A-Rod signed their contracts 5-7 years ago.

 

and the yankees are getting along just fine toting the contracts of giambi, jeter and arod around.

The average annual value of Giambi/Jeter/ARod represents about 31% of the Yankees projected 200 million budget. The average annual value of Soriano/Ramirez/Lee is going to be 35% of the Cubs budget if it hits 130 million...and I'm not sure it's going to get quite that high.

 

Ok, so if the three contracts the Cubs have aren't as payroll friendly for them as the big three are for the Yankees...maybe they get better production out of their players to make up for it.

 

[Career OPS+/3 year average OPS+/career high OPS+]

 

ARod [145/147/167]

Jeter [123/125/161]

Giambi [150/155/202]

Average Values [139/142/177]

---------------------------

Soriano [115/113/132]

Ramirez [109/133/137]

Lee [123/146/177]

Average Values [116/131/149]

 

Factor in defense if you like, but I don't think that's going to come close to covering the gap...especially if ARod bounces back from his one year anomaly at third.

 

Basically, the Cubs are spending a larger percentage of their payroll on their top three guys than the Yankees, and the return they're getting from those guys isn't as high...nor will it likely ever be as high. If you have worse payroll management than the Yankees (locked in for the next five years or so no less), you're going to have to work hard to make up the difference.

[goonys evil twin]

Basically, the Cubs are spending a larger percentage of their payroll on their top three guys than the Yankees, and the return they're getting from those guys isn't as high...nor will it likely ever be as high. If you have worse payroll management than the Yankees (locked in for the next five years or so no less), you're going to have to work hard to make up the difference.

 

This is true. I will never argue that Hendry is good at payroll management. I think he's an inefficient boob with the dollars.

 

However, the Yankees are also a team that puts up 95 win seasons in a down year. I would kill for the Cubs to have back to back 95 win seasons, let alone 6 straight, and 9 of 10.

[EastonBlues22]

Also, didn't Manny lead the AL in outfield assists one year not so far past?

 

I'm not trying to say that Soriano = Manny in the OF...just that OF assists isn't necessarily the best way to judge outfield defense.

 

More than likely runners were testing him as often as they could while he was playing his new position...I'm not sure you can count on that trend continuing. If it doesn't, you're left with jumps and routes...things that had better improve before Soriano's speed starts slipping otherwise he's potentially going to be a great DH a little more than halfway through his contract.

[abuck1220]

I haven't read all 98 pages of this so pardon me if this has been brought up before:

 

For those complaining about still paying him $17 million when he's 38 years old, how do we know that in the 2014 market that won't be a bargain? At the rate salaries are increasing, backup catchers may be making $8 or $9 million a year by then (and superstars making $25million+).

 

This is a good point. Some of the contracts that seemed way out of line when they were signed, are looking better now. Player contracts are trending up so it might take some of the sting off this one, down the road.

 

That's what people thought when Hampton, Giambi, Jeter, and A-Rod signed their contracts 5-7 years ago.

 

and the yankees are getting along just fine toting the contracts of giambi, jeter and arod around.

The average annual value of Giambi/Jeter/ARod represents about 31% of the Yankees projected 200 million budget. The average annual value of Soriano/Ramirez/Lee is going to be 35% of the Cubs budget if it hits 130 million...and I'm not sure it's going to get quite that high.

 

Ok, so if the three contracts the Cubs have aren't as payroll friendly for them as the big three are for the Yankees...maybe they get better production out of their players to make up for it.

 

[Career OPS+/3 year average OPS+/career high OPS+]

 

ARod [145/147/167]

Jeter [123/125/161]

Giambi [150/155/202]

Average Values [139/142/177]

---------------------------

Soriano [115/113/132]

Ramirez [109/133/137]

Lee [123/146/177]

Average Values [116/131/149]

 

Factor in defense if you like, but I don't think that's going to come close to covering the gap...especially if ARod bounces back from his one year anomaly at third.

 

Basically, the Cubs are spending a larger percentage of their payroll on their top three guys than the Yankees, and the return they're getting from those guys isn't as high...nor will it likely ever be as high. If you have worse payroll management than the Yankees (locked in for the next five years or so no less), you're going to have to work hard to make up the difference.

 

i agree that the yankees are getting more bang for the buck than the cubs. but i still feel like the cubs will have ample $ to spend. even though they're getting more out of their money on those three guys, i don't think the cubs worst contracts equal the bad contracts the yankees have/had with pavano, wright, rj, etc.

 

the cubs haven't set themselves up for a perfect next 10 years, but i don't think they're crippled by any means.

[Derwood]

 

Some guys just hit really good at certain parks...Thats why I wouldnt mind C Lee here, hes a monster at Wrigley with over a 1.000 OPS...I rember hated playing Abreu when he was on the Phillies whenever he came here..He destroyed us every at bat pretty much..Also Beltran was a monster at Wrigley...Lot of guys just do really good in a certain place and atmosphere

 

so did Burnitz and Blauser. How did they work out?

[CubinNY]

Also, didn't Manny lead the AL in outfield assists one year not so far past?

 

I'm not trying to say that Soriano = Manny in the OF...just that OF assists isn't necessarily the best way to judge outfield defense.

 

More than likely runners were testing him as often as they could while he was playing his new position...I'm not sure you can count on that trend continuing. If it doesn't, you're left with jumps and routes...things that had better improve before Soriano's speed starts slipping otherwise he's potentially going to be a great DH a little more than halfway through his contract.

 

Aside from the outliers on both sides of the equation (great vs. terrible), corner OF defense is pretty much the same for any player. I'd rather a guy can hit the cut-off man properly. Most gappers that go for extra bases have more to do with positioning than with route running ability and such.

 

I cannot get worked up about the corner outfield postions. If Soriano is in CF though, I worry.

[EastonBlues22]

Basically, the Cubs are spending a larger percentage of their payroll on their top three guys than the Yankees, and the return they're getting from those guys isn't as high...nor will it likely ever be as high. If you have worse payroll management than the Yankees (locked in for the next five years or so no less), you're going to have to work hard to make up the difference.

 

This is true. I will never argue that Hendry is good at payroll management. I think he's an inefficient boob with the dollars.

 

However, the Yankees are also a team that puts up 95 win seasons in a down year. I would kill for the Cubs to have back to back 95 win seasons, let alone 6 straight, and 9 of 10.

The Yankees have the payroll depth to do stupid things like Pavano/Wright/etc. and still get away with being competitive. The Cubs don't have the payroll room right now to make a mistake like that.

 

With the current FA pitching market the way it is, there's a lot of mistakes out there waiting to happen. I think Hendry's next two signings are the ones that are going to make or break next year's team...and potentially even teams three years down the road. If he can nab two pitchers who produce to the levels of their contracts, the Cubs aren't in bad shape (assuming health). If he doesn't...well, the Cubs just won't have much money left to overcome that error (if any at all).

[justlikethecubs]

I haven't read all 98 pages of this so pardon me if this has been brought up before:

 

For those complaining about still paying him $17 million when he's 38 years old, how do we know that in the 2014 market that won't be a bargain? At the rate salaries are increasing, backup catchers may be making $8 or $9 million a year by then (and superstars making $25million+).

 

This is a good point. Some of the contracts that seemed way out of line when they were signed, are looking better now. Player contracts are trending up so it might take some of the sting off this one, down the road.

 

That's what people thought when Hampton, Giambi, Jeter, and A-Rod signed their contracts 5-7 years ago.

 

and the yankees are getting along just fine toting the contracts of giambi, jeter and arod around.

The average annual value of Giambi/Jeter/ARod represents about 31% of the Yankees projected 200 million budget. The average annual value of Soriano/Ramirez/Lee is going to be 35% of the Cubs budget if it hits 130 million...and I'm not sure it's going to get quite that high.

 

Ok, so if the three contracts the Cubs have aren't as payroll friendly for them as the big three are for the Yankees...maybe they get better production out of their players to make up for it.

 

[Career OPS+/3 year average OPS+/career high OPS+]

 

ARod [145/147/167]

Jeter [123/125/161]

Giambi [150/155/202]

Average Values [139/142/177]

---------------------------

Soriano [115/113/132]

Ramirez [109/133/137]

Lee [123/146/177]

Average Values [116/131/149]

 

Factor in defense if you like, but I don't think that's going to come close to covering the gap...especially if ARod bounces back from his one year anomaly at third.

 

Basically, the Cubs are spending a larger percentage of their payroll on their top three guys than the Yankees, and the return they're getting from those guys isn't as high...nor will it likely ever be as high. If you have worse payroll management than the Yankees (locked in for the next five years or so no less), you're going to have to work hard to make up the difference.

 

i agree that the yankees are getting more bang for the buck than the cubs. but i still feel like the cubs will have ample $ to spend. even though they're getting more out of their money on those three guys, i don't think the cubs worst contracts equal the bad contracts the yankees have/had with pavano, wright, rj, etc.

 

the cubs haven't set themselves up for a perfect next 10 years, but i don't think they're crippled by any means.

 

I dont think just comparing there OPS + is that helpful. yes you do get an idea of what they have done, but how much of that OPS is dependent on the team around them? Put Soriano, Ramirez and Lee in the same lineup with Sheff, Posada, Matsui and u would have to bet their OPS would increase somewhat. conversely put the yankee's big three on different teams or in lineups not so stacked and they would drop a bit. I do believe we are paying alot but I will hold judgement til they have played a game I think.

[C.C.]

It's offical! Welcome to Chi-Town!

 

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061120&content_id=1743683&vkey=news_chc&fext=.jsp&c_id=chc

[goonys evil twin]

I dont think just comparing there OPS + is that helpful. yes you do get an idea of what they have done, but how much of that OPS is dependent on the team around them? Put Soriano, Ramirez and Lee in the same lineup with Sheff, Posada, Matsui and u would have to bet their OPS would increase somewhat. conversely put the yankee's big three on different teams or in lineups not so stacked and they would drop a bit. I do believe we are paying alot but I will hold judgement til they have played a game I think.

 

OPS is what you do yourself, not with the help of teammates. OPS+ adjusts for park factors. If you are going to compare guys, OPS+ is one of the best things to use.

[EastonBlues22]

i agree that the yankees are getting more bang for the buck than the cubs. but i still feel like the cubs will have ample $ to spend. even though they're getting more out of their money on those three guys, i don't think the cubs worst contracts equal the bad contracts the yankees have/had with pavano, wright, rj, etc.

 

the cubs haven't set themselves up for a perfect next 10 years, but i don't think they're crippled by any means.

Oh, I agree that they aren't in bad shape at all right now. They still have the money to spend. The caveat is that, unlike the Yankees, the Cubs need their pitchers to produce. If they hand out 4/36 to Padilla and he bombs...they're screwed.

 

Potentially for years.

 

They're going to have somewhere in the neighborhood of 60-64 million in payroll committed to five players over the next three to four years (46% of the payroll)...they would be hard pressed to fill out a competitive roster (especially at today's prices) if they aren't getting real contributions from all five of those players. Once (if?) Zambrano re-ups next year...we're talking somewhere around 75-80ish for six players (~58%+ of the payroll). There's definitely not enough room for a bust signing now.

[EastonBlues22]

Also, didn't Manny lead the AL in outfield assists one year not so far past?

 

I'm not trying to say that Soriano = Manny in the OF...just that OF assists isn't necessarily the best way to judge outfield defense.

 

More than likely runners were testing him as often as they could while he was playing his new position...I'm not sure you can count on that trend continuing. If it doesn't, you're left with jumps and routes...things that had better improve before Soriano's speed starts slipping otherwise he's potentially going to be a great DH a little more than halfway through his contract.

 

Aside from the outliers on both sides of the equation (great vs. terrible), corner OF defense is pretty much the same for any player. I'd rather a guy can hit the cut-off man properly. Most gappers that go for extra bases have more to do with positioning than with route running ability and such.

 

I cannot get worked up about the corner outfield postions. If Soriano is in CF though, I worry.

Dave Duncan says hi. :x

 

Seriously though, you have a good point. Soriano in CF would be...an adventure...even in the cozy confines of Wrigley.

[UMFan83]

Did anyone post the Buster Olney article on here yet? Not a big fan of this signing either...

 

Here is the Cubs part of the article:

 

The Cubs have now committed about $224 million to three players in the last eight days (Soriano, Aramis Ramirez, Mark DeRosa), and I don't know if they're any closer to winning a World Series than they were before they broke out the Tribune Company credit card. There are going to be days when the wind is blowing out at Wrigley Field and Lou Piniella and his guys are going to pick on some No. 4 or No. 5 lefty starter having a bad day, and they will hammer six or seven homers and everybody can happily hoist a few beers and toast the Cubbies.

 

But if they're going to be serious contenders, the Cubs still need pitching -- solid, frontline starting pitching, to slot in behind Carlos Zambrano. They've got Rich Hill and Sean Marshall, and maybe Mark Prior, and perhaps a couple of those guys will work out. The team finished 27th in starters' ERA last season, and so far they've done nothing to change the makeup of the rotation.

 

If you're a Cubs' fan, you're probably thrilled the team has finally unleashed its extraordinary financial power. But we might as well start counting down the days to when the team starts thinking about shedding Aramis Ramirez and/or Soriano. Neither is a flawless player -- Ramirez's effort has been erratic, he is not a great third baseman and he is coming off a season in which he had a .352 on-base percentage, which is good if you're making $5 million a year, rather than the $15 million Ramirez is being paid.

 

Similarly, Soriano has big holes, as a guy who swings and misses a whole lot (160 strikeouts last season), and he is hardly an on-base machine -- his career-high .351 OBP ranked 91st last year in the big leagues. If you spend $224 million, you'd want to make sure that you get one of the top four or five offensive players in the game, an elite hitting force, and the Cubs did not do that -- not even close.

 

When Manny Ramirez began his eight-year contract with the Red Sox, he was 28 years old. A-Rod was 25 years old when he signed his 10-year deal with Texas. Derek Jeter was 26. Soriano will turn 31 years old on Jan. 7. The Cubs locked him up for the seasons in which he'll be 37 and 38 years old, at $17 million per. Wow.

 

If the Cubs were so willing to overspend on a couple of guys in the name of pursuing a championship, why didn't they overpay to land Barry Zito, Jason Schmidt and Jeff Suppan?

 

The Cubs will now have a very right-handed lineup (the only veteran lefty hitter in this lineup is Jacque Jones) and they've got a lot of hitters who may struggle against frontline starters like Chris Carpenter and Roy Oswalt, and their outfield defense promises to be subpar, at best. Within this piece, Toni Ginnetti writes that the Cubs are also pursuing left fielder Cliff Floyd and pitcher Gil Meche. That means the Cubs outfield would be Floyd, Soriano and Jones.

 

The Cubs will be a very strange team, indeed.

 

Sorry if it was posted already

Edited November 20, 2006 by UMFan83

[moorecg]

Sorry...unwilling to go back through the full 100+ pages of posts to see if this has been discussed before...but, just curious...Assuming he doesn't loose a spot because of it, who on earth can be happier than Matt Murton right now?

 

If Soriano leads off it should go like this:

 

Soriano

Murton

Lee

Ramirez

Jones

Barrett

DeRosa

Isturiz

 

That has to be one of the more plum spots to hit in all of the Major leagues doesn't it? He's going to see a LOT more pitches this year, and with his plate dicipline that could mean HUGE things.

[justlikethecubs]

I dont think just comparing there OPS + is that helpful. yes you do get an idea of what they have done, but how much of that OPS is dependent on the team around them? Put Soriano, Ramirez and Lee in the same lineup with Sheff, Posada, Matsui and u would have to bet their OPS would increase somewhat. conversely put the yankee's big three on different teams or in lineups not so stacked and they would drop a bit. I do believe we are paying alot but I will hold judgement til they have played a game I think.

 

OPS is what you do yourself, not with the help of teammates. OPS+ adjusts for park factors. If you are going to compare guys, OPS+ is one of the best things to use.

 

I understand OPS to a point. and I understand what the poster was saying . It makes sense. I guess I am looking at is more situationally then by stats. the three from the yankees lineup would seem to see more quality pitches to hit based on the rest of the lineup. Thats all I was implying. I do think that would impact OPS abut who knows by how much

[UMFan83]

^^ Well if the whispers about Cliff Floyd are true, it could be bad for MM

[EastonBlues22]

I dont think just comparing there OPS + is that helpful. yes you do get an idea of what they have done, but how much of that OPS is dependent on the team around them? Put Soriano, Ramirez and Lee in the same lineup with Sheff, Posada, Matsui and u would have to bet their OPS would increase somewhat. conversely put the yankee's big three on different teams or in lineups not so stacked and they would drop a bit. I do believe we are paying alot but I will hold judgement til they have played a game I think.

 

OPS is what you do yourself, not with the help of teammates. OPS+ adjusts for park factors. If you are going to compare guys, OPS+ is one of the best things to use.

 

I understand OPS to a point. and I understand what the poster was saying . It makes sense. I guess I am looking at is more situationally then by stats. the three from the yankees lineup would seem to see more quality pitches to hit based on the rest of the lineup. Thats all I was implying. I do think that would impact OPS abut who knows by how much

ARod and Giambi were monster hitters long before they found their way to the Yankees. Giambi's top two OPS+ years came with Oakland...three of ARod's top four came with different teams (SEA, TEX).

[justlikethecubs]

I dont think just comparing there OPS + is that helpful. yes you do get an idea of what they have done, but how much of that OPS is dependent on the team around them? Put Soriano, Ramirez and Lee in the same lineup with Sheff, Posada, Matsui and u would have to bet their OPS would increase somewhat. conversely put the yankee's big three on different teams or in lineups not so stacked and they would drop a bit. I do believe we are paying alot but I will hold judgement til they have played a game I think.

 

OPS is what you do yourself, not with the help of teammates. OPS+ adjusts for park factors. If you are going to compare guys, OPS+ is one of the best things to use.

 

I understand OPS to a point. and I understand what the poster was saying . It makes sense. I guess I am looking at is more situationally then by stats. the three from the yankees lineup would seem to see more quality pitches to hit based on the rest of the lineup. Thats all I was implying. I do think that would impact OPS abut who knows by how much

ARod and Giambi were monster hitters long before they found their way to the Yankees. Giambi's top two OPS+ years came with Oakland...three of ARod's top four came with different teams (SEA, TEX).

 

well looking over there careers before the yankees I probably would have saw that. I was only thinking about the yankees situation. so im wrong..

[WrigleyinEngland]

Olney.........

 

If the Cubs were so willing to overspend on a couple of guys in the name of pursuing a championship, why didn't they overpay to land Barry Zito, Jason Schmidt and Jeff Suppan?

 

Overpay to land suppan?????? Talk about making a point ( i believe some of his points are worth consideration) and then shooting yourself in the foot. What about the idea of us having flex in the payroll 2-3 years from now as Gallagher and Veal enter the rotation??