Rothschild, O'Neal = Signed for 2 More Years

[Laura]

Piniella has had some good things to say about his philosophy, both before and after he was officially named Cubs manager.

 

But the fact that Rothschild + O'Neal (and one assumes anyone else on the training staff) has been signed to 2-yr contracts AGAIN makes it seem like Business as Usual. Which sucks.

 

Is there hope? Is Rothschild actually a good pitching coach who has been ignored and beaten down under Dusty's regime?

 

Or is this just going to be another hugely expensive-yet-futile treadmill ride?

[dalgreen]

Piniella has had some good things to say about his philosophy, both before and after he was officially named Cubs manager.

 

But the fact that Rothschild + O'Neal (and one assumes anyone else on the training staff) has been signed to 2-yr contracts AGAIN makes it seem like Business as Usual. Which sucks.

 

Is there hope? Is Rothschild actually a good pitching coach who has been ignored and beaten down under Dusty's regime?

 

Or is this just going to be another hugely expensive-yet-futile treadmill ride?

 

Hey! Quit stealing my thoughts!

 

But, I don't ever remember reading or hearing anything suggesting that Rothschild was at odds with Baker, which makes me believe he was just as responsible, or maybe even more, than Baker.

[Rob]

All I know is that I've increased my beer budget by 20%

[VanceJergins]

Piniella has had some good things to say about his philosophy, both before and after he was officially named Cubs manager.

 

But the fact that Rothschild + O'Neal (and one assumes anyone else on the training staff) has been signed to 2-yr contracts AGAIN makes it seem like Business as Usual. Which sucks.

 

Is there hope? Is Rothschild actually a good pitching coach who has been ignored and beaten down under Dusty's regime?

 

Or is this just going to be another hugely expensive-yet-futile treadmill ride?

 

Hey! Quit stealing my thoughts!

 

But, I don't ever remember reading or hearing anything suggesting that Rothschild was at odds with Baker, which makes me believe he was just as responsible, or maybe even more, than Baker.

 

I think Bruce Miles strongly implied it.

[Laura]

Bruce at least said that was the front-office view.

 

I do think Rothschild gets blamed for some things that he didn't institute, like the towel drill. It's a USC thing!

 

My point of view is that everyone should have been fired from the top-down. Even Yosh!! (And including the Tribune Company as owner, which I know is impossible) (I would have kept whoever was responsible for the Cardinals cold water shower in April, though). That isn't going to happen.

 

I don't know anymore if medical problems -- Prior and Wood as shorthand examples -- like the medical problems that have plagued the Cubs are even curable anymore. If neither of them were around, would we be having these debates?

 

The problem for me is that I suspect that they were pitched to death in '03. Not everyone agrees. Hence the arguements about when to cut them loose from a business standpoint, from a fan standpoint, from whatever standpoint.

[Laura]

From a symbolic standpoint:

 

Keeping Rothschild and O'Neal = The Cubs Have Made No Mistakes

 

they've just been unlucky

and unhealthy

 

 

I think that's the big problem a lot of people, including ME, have with rehiring them.

[Sammy Sofa]

Bruce's comments on Rothschild make his coming back not drive me as insane as I'd thought, but I'm still not convinced. O'Neal, on the other hand...given the rampant and repeated injuries, I'm sorry, the traning staff has to be at least somewhat accountable.

[CubFanPhilly]

O'Neal is the third trainer in, what, the last five years? And he's only been around the last two.

 

I question whether it's the trainer.

[Peoriaman]

Good luck to both of them. Let's get better next year.

[Bruce Miles]

The Cubs fired one trainer after 2003, another and an assistant after '04. Why the rush to fire Mark O'Neal, who does a pretty good job? Let's remember, O'Neal and his staff personally went down to the Dominican Republic last winter to make sure Aramis was working. He actually ended up playing 157 games, one short of his career best. That means he played virtually every day. Wood and Prior? Totally out of the trainer's control.

As far as Larry goes, I'll neither attack nor defend. But I will point out a few things that likely will be viewed as a defense. The towel drill, which seems to get a lot of ridicule, is not unique to the Cubs, and it does serve a purpose. Wood and Prior? Here we go with that question again. They aren't Larry's fault, either. Wood had surgery, and who knows what's going on with Prior. Sometimes, instead of blaming others, we need to look at the individual.

Matt Clement and Joe Borowski did pretty well under Larry (I hate trying to spell "Rothschild"), with Joe resurrecting his career. Carlos Zambrano blossomed into an elite under Larry. He had the talent, but he wasn't going to "get it" under Oscar Acosta. All of the young pitchers were rushed up here this year. Larry worked closely with Alan Dunn in Iowa this year on Rich Hill. Both coaches and Rich himself had a hand in Rich's improvement.

All that said, I won't deny bringing Larry back is a tough sell to the public. I'm interested to see how he'll do under a different manager.

[goonys evil twin]

Hendry said, “Larry Rothschild is one of the best pitching coaches in major-league baseball — two World Series rings under his belt and the chance that he would have had to be involved in a third one this year if he chose to leave

 

I really think Hendry feels guilty about bringing Rothschild back to a losing situation, and he wants to make good. I can only assume he gave Larry some sort of assurance that convinced him to stay in what was clearly not a perfect relationship with Baker, instead of leaving for Detroit.

 

This is how Hendry deals with lots of personel issues. He's so afraid of doing right by the other person, possibly even at the risk of not doing right by the team. He insists on making "fair deals" with other teams, other than simply the best deal for the Cubs. He waited all season to fire Dusty, to give him the proper respect, instead of doing what was clearly best for the team and ending the relationship ASAP.

 

Jim seems awfully concerned about his reputation within the game, which is normal I guess, and much less concerned with the production of his baseball players.

 

It paid off, I guess, when his mentor gave him an unwarrented contract extension before walking out the door. Without that contract, Andy probably knew Jim would have been canned.

 

Hendry is like the Pay It Forward of baseball management.

Edited October 18, 2006 by goony's evil twin

[goonys evil twin]

The Cubs fired one trainer after 2003, another and an assistant after '04. Why the rush to fire Mark O'Neal, who does a pretty good job?

 

I don't know if he's done a good job or not, but I'm not interested in O'Neal's head on a platter, for the very reason that Bruce points out in the first sentence. This is the 3rd guy in 4 years. I don't think you solve health issues by constantly turning over the training staff.

 

Besides, I blame Dusty's abuse for the health problems much more than a trainer that came on after these guys were hurt.

[Scott G. F.]

I honestly don't know how the "fan base" can be critical of the pitching coach. I am dissappointed that Larry is coming back simply because I think a total change was needed. That said I have one question. Will Larry become a different coach then he was with Dusty? Piniella holds people accountable, so will Larry become a better coach because of this? Scott Eyre already admitted he didn't do his best last year, he basically said he was lax. Just imagine what other players got away with under Larry. Will this change or was the status quo preserved?

 

I reserve judgement on this topic simple due to not knowing enough about what a pitching coach does (I can admit this). I believe we'll see a different Larry Rothchild next year simply due to his proximity to Piniella. I hope I'm right. Then again, don't we all.

[goonys evil twin]

I honestly don't know how the "fan base" can be critical of the pitching coach.

 

It's all about results. I can't break down what exactly he's teaching them. There are general concepts, like the notion that he's supposedly a pitch to avoid contact type of guy, which leads to walks, the team's biggest problem. But I can't speak to the specifics. I do know this is an immensely talented pitching staff, but it's a staff that has gotten worse and worse. He's had a couple guys blossom, or improve under him. But for every Zambrano, there are two Borowski and Clement, who got better, but then quickly faded.

 

But just like with Hendry, and just like with Baker, the results speak to a failure. I never advocated Dusty being the fall guy for the whole system. Dusty was a big part, but Hendry, Larry and many others should have suffered the consequences of failure.

[Scott G. F.]

The Cubs fired one trainer after 2003, another and an assistant after '04. Why the rush to fire Mark O'Neal, who does a pretty good job?

 

I don't know if he's done a good job or not, but I'm not interested in O'Neal's head on a platter, for the very reason that Bruce points out in the first sentence. This is the 3rd guy in 4 years. I don't think you solve health issues by constantly turning over the training staff.

 

Besides, I blame Dusty's abuse for the health problems much more than a trainer that came on after these guys were hurt.

 

Having inside knowledge and access to a professional trainer in baseball and quizing him on this topic. His comments about the training staff for the Cubs was simple.

After Dave Tombas was fired for allowing Mark Prior to pitch after the collision with Brian Giles in 2003. Dusty had his excuse to bring in his GUY from the Giants.

This is when the injuries began to be misdiagnosed. The Cubs training staff was not straght forward in answering simple questions about the health of the team. I mean Will Carroll broke the news about Mark Prior before spring training 2006 and the Cubs oraginization said the rumor was false only to find out it was true and Prior would a nonfactor all year.

The status of both Wood and Prior are up in the air to this day.

 

I believe it has been a combination of many factors. I believe Piniella will change this for the better.

[Pinktermite]

I think we need to look at who wanted Rothschild. Leyland wanted him, and he seems to know something about winning baseball games. Again, I'll say that Rothschild has improved many pitchers during his tenure here and hasn't improved Prior and Woody...but he also inherited that disaster from a previous regime...

 

I don't know that there's a team that doesn't have pitching injuries. Is there?

[goonys evil twin]

I think we need to look at who wanted Rothschild. Leyland wanted him, and he seems to know something about winning baseball games.

 

That's meaningless. He also wanted Neifi Perez. Leyland isn't god. He's failed and made terrible decisions at times. Maybe wanting Larry was one of them.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

1. Kerry Wood has bad mechanics. Pitching is already an extremely violent act for elbows and shoulders.

2. Mark Prior has a loose shoulder. I had the same problem, and it caused me to often experience much discomfort even before my labrum was torn.

 

Both of these issues can be accelerated with overuse, namely high pitch counts. All evidence I have seen points to Baker being the one making decisions on when his pitchers come out. If Bruce is correct that Dusty often overruled Larry's decisions, I have no issues with him coming back.

[Pinktermite]

No, Leyland isn't God, and all managers make mistakes...obviously. And Larry Rothschild is picked on way too much on this website.

 

Too many people want to blame everyone, when it was Jim Hendry that screwed up most of this, and is now going to try and make up for lost time.

[goonys evil twin]

No, Leyland isn't God, and all managers make mistakes...obviously. And Larry Rothschild is picked on way too much on this website.

 

I'm not sure how you correctly judge how much a guy should be picked on. The results speak for themselves, and Larry's results aren't good. The baseball community praises him as good at his job, but there is absolutely no proof. The baseball community also praises guys like Neifi Perez, when there is more than enough proof that he sucks. Baseball is a very easy game to see the results. Larry's results are bad. His apologists don't think he should get blamed. I think everybody involved should take responsibility and be replaced.

 

I'm not much for rewarding failure.

[Pinktermite]

Who besides Jim Hendry and Dusty B praised Neifi? I would guess that just about every manager in the game knows Neifi sucks.

 

Leyland didn't exactly put Neifi in a prominent position on the team once he was acquired. He's had 4 ab's in the playoffs and had a striking 65 ab's once he was acquired.

[dalgreen]

Could someone be so kind as to link me to Bruce's comments, or article, regarding the possibility of Rothschild and Baker not seeing eye to eye? I haven't been around much the last couple of weeks.

[CubColtPacer]

Could someone be so kind as to link me to Bruce's comments, or article, regarding the possibility of Rothschild and Baker not seeing eye to eye? I haven't been around much the last couple of weeks.

 

There were a couple of threads. Here was one of them. It wasn't the most explicit one he made, but this will give you the idea-it's about 3/4 of the way down the first page.

 

viewtopic.php?t=35835&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[dalgreen]

Could someone be so kind as to link me to Bruce's comments, or article, regarding the possibility of Rothschild and Baker not seeing eye to eye? I haven't been around much the last couple of weeks.

 

There were a couple of threads. Here was one of them. It wasn't the most explicit one he made, but this will give you the idea-it's about 3/4 of the way down the first page.

 

viewtopic.php?t=35835&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

 

Thanks, it's appreciated.

[biittner77]

Who besides Jim Hendry and Dusty B praised Neifi? I would guess that just about every manager in the game knows Neifi sucks.

 

Leyland didn't exactly put Neifi in a prominent position on the team once he was acquired. He's had 4 ab's in the playoffs and had a striking 65 ab's once he was acquired.

 

Wasn't Perez leading off or hitting 2nd in most of the games he started? Leyland probably had to play Perez with Polanco out but he sure didn't have to put him at the top of the order.