Girardi Not Back w/ Marlins in 2007

[USSoccer]

The Tigers are nowhere near the same team they were last year, it's not even close.

 

What are the differences other than Leyland?

 

The young arms have peaked and remained healthy.

 

The perfect storm. For their sake I hope they win it this year.

 

They may never be in this situation again.

 

He won in Pittsburgh, Florida and now Detroit. Amazing how those "perfect storms" keep following him around.

 

I'm guessing the Storm lost the directions to Colorado.

 

And ignored the All-Star teams he had in FLA and PIT.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

The Tigers are nowhere near the same team they were last year, it's not even close.

 

What are the differences other than Leyland?

 

Granderson, a healthy Ordonez, Verlander and Zumaya, another season of maturity(and therefore production) from Bonderman, Robertson, Rodney and Maroth, a crazy fluke season from Walker, etc..

 

EDIT: Heck, Granderson, Verlander, and Zumaya have 47 win shares between them, that's 15 wins right there that weren't even on the team last year.

[The Voice of Reason]

The Tigers are nowhere near the same team they were last year, it's not even close.

 

What are the differences other than Leyland?

 

The young arms have peaked and remained healthy.

 

The perfect storm. For their sake I hope they win it this year.

 

They may never be in this situation again.

 

He won in Pittsburgh, Florida and now Detroit. Amazing how those "perfect storms" keep following him around.

 

I'm guessing the Storm lost the directions to Colorado.

 

.750 is not a bad batting average. Who has won consistently in Colorado?

[Soriano12]

The Tigers are nowhere near the same team they were last year, it's not even close.

 

What are the differences other than Leyland?

 

The young arms have peaked and remained healthy.

 

The perfect storm. For their sake I hope they win it this year.

 

They may never be in this situation again.

 

He won in Pittsburgh, Florida and now Detroit. Amazing how those "perfect storms" keep following him around.

 

I'm guessing the Storm lost the directions to Colorado.

 

.750 is not a bad batting average. Who has won consistently in Colorado?

 

So I guess then Leyland is your middle of the road type manager.

 

Not terrible, but not great.

[Guest]

I would much rather have girardi than leyland. I give Joe credit for holding that team together after the rough start. While he will make silly moves for the sake of managering, at least he shows some leadership skills. I am not so sure his style would rub veterans the wrong way - heck, how would we know?

[SouthSideRyan]

Even after this year, Leyland's career winning percentage is under 500. This will be his 7th winning season out of 15 seasons. Following Marlins fire sale v. 1.0, Leyland went 54-108. He's finished in 1st place zero times without Barry Bonds, and looks like he may not change that this season. And he's got a real disturbing infatuation with Neifi.

[KingCubsFan]

While he will make silly moves for the sake of managering, at least he shows some leadership skills.

Wasn't this the type of thing people said about Dusty?

[Guest]

While he will make silly moves for the sake of managering, at least he shows some leadership skills.

Wasn't this the type of thing people said about Dusty?

 

I'm not sure who was saying that but I've never seen any.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Larry Dierker is still unemployed and has a sparkling record to boot. 4 out 5 years he won the division. Not too shabby.

[The Voice of Reason]

The Tigers are nowhere near the same team they were last year, it's not even close.

 

What are the differences other than Leyland?

 

The young arms have peaked and remained healthy.

 

The perfect storm. For their sake I hope they win it this year.

 

They may never be in this situation again.

 

He won in Pittsburgh, Florida and now Detroit. Amazing how those "perfect storms" keep following him around.

 

I'm guessing the Storm lost the directions to Colorado.

 

.750 is not a bad batting average. Who has won consistently in Colorado?

 

So I guess then Leyland is your middle of the road type manager.

 

Not terrible, but not great.

 

Middle of the road???

 

Manager of the Year - Six times, 3 in the minors and three in the majors (counting this year).

 

Turned the Pirates around in the aftermath of the drug scandals of 1985 and won three division titles.

 

Won the World Series with the Marlins.

 

Had the integrity (unlike Dusty) to walk away from baseball and $millions in Colorado when he burnt out after 35 years.

 

Has the Tigers going to the playoffs in his first year as manager.

[Guest]

Larry Dierker is still unemployed and has a sparkling record to boot. 4 out 5 years he won the division. Not too shabby.

 

Are you a Larry Dierker fan? Because its hard to tell! :)

[The Voice of Reason]

Even after this year, Leyland's career winning percentage is under 500. This will be his 7th winning season out of 15 seasons. Following Marlins fire sale v. 1.0, Leyland went 54-108. He's finished in 1st place zero times without Barry Bonds, and looks like he may not change that this season. And he's got a real disturbing infatuation with Neifi.

 

How many above average budget teams has he coached? Not many. Do you think the Marlin fans care that they were a wild card team when they won the World Series? You're right that 54 - 108 AAA season shouldn't be counted against him and is a good example of why overall records can be misleading.

 

He'll wise up on Neifi.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Even after this year, Leyland's career winning percentage is under 500. This will be his 7th winning season out of 15 seasons. Following Marlins fire sale v. 1.0, Leyland went 54-108. He's finished in 1st place zero times without Barry Bonds, and looks like he may not change that this season. And he's got a real disturbing infatuation with Neifi.

 

How many above average budget teams has he coached? Not many. Do you think the Marlin fans care that they were a wild card team when they won the World Series? You're right that 54 - 108 AAA season shouldn't be counted against him and is a good example of why overall records can be misleading.

 

He'll wise up on Neifi.

 

Why shouldn't a 54-108 season be counted against him? Are you saying the quality of the players is what should be looked at?

[Soriano12]

The Tigers are nowhere near the same team they were last year, it's not even close.

 

What are the differences other than Leyland?

 

The young arms have peaked and remained healthy.

 

The perfect storm. For their sake I hope they win it this year.

 

They may never be in this situation again.

 

He won in Pittsburgh, Florida and now Detroit. Amazing how those "perfect storms" keep following him around.

 

I'm guessing the Storm lost the directions to Colorado.

 

.750 is not a bad batting average. Who has won consistently in Colorado?

 

So I guess then Leyland is your middle of the road type manager.

 

Not terrible, but not great.

 

Middle of the road???

 

Manager of the Year - Six times, 3 in the minors and three in the majors (counting this year).

 

Turned the Pirates around in the aftermath of the drug scandals of 1985 and won three division titles.

 

Won the World Series with the Marlins.

 

Had the integrity (unlike Dusty) to walk away from baseball and $millions in Colorado when he burnt out after 35 years.

 

Has the Tigers going to the playoffs in his first year as manager.

 

 

1069-1131 .486

[The Voice of Reason]

Even after this year, Leyland's career winning percentage is under 500. This will be his 7th winning season out of 15 seasons. Following Marlins fire sale v. 1.0, Leyland went 54-108. He's finished in 1st place zero times without Barry Bonds, and looks like he may not change that this season. And he's got a real disturbing infatuation with Neifi.

 

How many above average budget teams has he coached? Not many. Do you think the Marlin fans care that they were a wild card team when they won the World Series? You're right that 54 - 108 AAA season shouldn't be counted against him and is a good example of why overall records can be misleading.

 

He'll wise up on Neifi.

 

Why shouldn't a 54-108 season be counted against him? Are you saying the quality of the players is what should be looked at?

 

Are you saying the most talented team wins the World Series every year? That managers don't make a difference? That despite being voted Manager of the Year six times (by observant Sports writers like Bruce Miles), Leyland is not a good manager because he lost 108 games with a AAA (at best) team?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Even after this year, Leyland's career winning percentage is under 500. This will be his 7th winning season out of 15 seasons. Following Marlins fire sale v. 1.0, Leyland went 54-108. He's finished in 1st place zero times without Barry Bonds, and looks like he may not change that this season. And he's got a real disturbing infatuation with Neifi.

 

How many above average budget teams has he coached? Not many. Do you think the Marlin fans care that they were a wild card team when they won the World Series? You're right that 54 - 108 AAA season shouldn't be counted against him and is a good example of why overall records can be misleading.

 

He'll wise up on Neifi.

 

Why shouldn't a 54-108 season be counted against him? Are you saying the quality of the players is what should be looked at?

 

Are you saying the most talented team wins the World Series every year? That managers don't make a difference? That despite being voted Manager of the Year six times (by observant Sports writers like Bruce Miles), Leyland is not a good manager because he lost 108 games with a AAA (at best) team?

 

That's absolutely not what I'm saying. I think managers get too much of the credit and often too much of the blame when it comes to the results of their teams. Jim Leyland might be a "good" manager, but the truth is there are a lot of coaches throughout the country that would make some of the same in-game moves that he makes. He's nothing special.

[fromthestretch]

Are you saying the most talented team wins the World Series every year? That managers don't make a difference? That despite being voted Manager of the Year six times (by observant Sports writers like Bruce Miles), Leyland is not a good manager because he lost 108 games with a AAA (at best) team?

 

Are you saying that all sportswriters are created equal? The word "observant" doesn't apply to most sportswriters. Miles is an exception, not the norm.

[The Voice of Reason]

Are you saying the most talented team wins the World Series every year? That managers don't make a difference? That despite being voted Manager of the Year six times (by observant Sports writers like Bruce Miles), Leyland is not a good manager because he lost 108 games with a AAA (at best) team?

 

Are you saying that all sportswriters are created equal? The word "observant" doesn't apply to most sportswriters. Miles is an exception, not the norm.

 

 

No, any voting system has it's weaknesses but Manager of the Year voting does allow for the discounting of unequal talent distribution rather than simply giving the award to the Manager of the team with the best W/L record.

 

Overall I think the writers get it right most of the time.

[SouthSideRyan]

Even after this year, Leyland's career winning percentage is under 500. This will be his 7th winning season out of 15 seasons. Following Marlins fire sale v. 1.0, Leyland went 54-108. He's finished in 1st place zero times without Barry Bonds, and looks like he may not change that this season. And he's got a real disturbing infatuation with Neifi.

 

How many above average budget teams has he coached? Not many. Do you think the Marlin fans care that they were a wild card team when they won the World Series? You're right that 54 - 108 AAA season shouldn't be counted against him and is a good example of why overall records can be misleading.

 

He'll wise up on Neifi.

 

Why shouldn't a 54-108 season be counted against him? Are you saying the quality of the players is what should be looked at?

 

Are you saying the most talented team wins the World Series every year? That managers don't make a difference? That despite being voted Manager of the Year six times (by observant Sports writers like Bruce Miles), Leyland is not a good manager because he lost 108 games with a AAA (at best) team?

 

So team does bad, blame the budget, and the talent. Team does, good, yay manager!!

 

Dusty Baker, 3 time Manager of the Year.

[A New Era]

Here I come, stupidly. Expecting some positive talk about Girardi. And many happy fans happily discussing how we are finally about to be rid of Dusty, for good.

 

Silly me. :cry: Where's my feel good thread!!

[The Voice of Reason]

Even after this year, Leyland's career winning percentage is under 500. This will be his 7th winning season out of 15 seasons. Following Marlins fire sale v. 1.0, Leyland went 54-108. He's finished in 1st place zero times without Barry Bonds, and looks like he may not change that this season. And he's got a real disturbing infatuation with Neifi.

 

How many above average budget teams has he coached? Not many. Do you think the Marlin fans care that they were a wild card team when they won the World Series? You're right that 54 - 108 AAA season shouldn't be counted against him and is a good example of why overall records can be misleading.

 

He'll wise up on Neifi.

 

Why shouldn't a 54-108 season be counted against him? Are you saying the quality of the players is what should be looked at?

 

Are you saying the most talented team wins the World Series every year? That managers don't make a difference? That despite being voted Manager of the Year six times (by observant Sports writers like Bruce Miles), Leyland is not a good manager because he lost 108 games with a AAA (at best) team?

 

So team does bad, blame the budget, and the talent. Team does, good, yay manager!!

 

Dusty Baker, 3 time Manager of the Year.

 

What about some of the other managers that have won it in the last 2O years? Dierker, McKeon (2), Cox (3), LaRussa (2), Lasorda (2), Torre, Kelly, Sparky Anderson (2), etc.

 

Which ones were undeserving? Obviously they were just "middle of the road" managers like Leyland (3) and Girardi (this year's winners). :roll:

[NorthsideAvenger]

All managers/coaches, they are nothing but highly paid babysitters. I realize that is an oversimplication of what they do, but to me that is what they are. There are three things a manager/coach have to do that is part of their job descritpion:

 

1: Fill out the lineup card and make sure the players get to their right positions.

2: Speak with the media.

3: Smooth out any potenial in house troubles, behind close doors.

 

We know, Baker does two of the three things, with #3 he refuses to do.

 

I also believe that being good at “in game strategy” is about as overrated as “the strikeout” or “speed in your leadoff guy.” The fact is half the time the “decision” will work, half the time the “decision” won’t work, but 100% of the time it depends on the players on the field to make the manager’s “decision” work or not. So again, I think the “in game strategy” is abit overrated description for the manager. So any “questions” about Girardi’s, Fredi Gonzalez, or Dusty Baker’s “in game strategy” is abit useless in debates. Baker is just a bad manager as he doesn’t have nor hold accountability, or regardless of what the players say, Baker has NO respect among the players in the clubhouse.

 

With that said, why are there some people here who think Fredi Gonzalez would be agood hire, and others think Girardi would not?

 

Is it because Fredi has coached under Bobby Cox? Name one quality coach that was under Bobby Cox that went on an found success elsewhere? Maybe Ned Yost, and right now his success in Milwaukee has been limited. I can’t think of another. But what about Joe Girardi? He got to learn under Joe Torre, a HIGHLY respect manager in his own right. And Willie Randolph turned out to be a very good coach, atleast better initially then Ned Yost. And Joe even has one yr of managing up on Gonzalez, so Joe would still be classified as a “young manager.”

 

So I don’t get the pro Fredi Gonzalez, and the not-so-pro Joe Girardi groups. I think both would be a solid choice for manager. But I slightly prefer Joe since he knows the Cubs, their organization, and how to deal with the Chicago market. I fear a little that Fredi might be in over his head abit if he tried to managed in Chicago, after coaching in a little pressure market like the Atl.

[goonys evil twin]

I also believe that being good at “in game strategy” is about as overrated as “the strikeout” or “speed in your leadoff guy.” The fact is half the time the “decision” will work, half the time the “decision” won’t work, but 100% of the time it depends on the players on the field to make the manager’s “decision” work or not. So again, I think the “in game strategy” is abit overrated description for the manager. So any “questions” about Girardi’s, Fredi Gonzalez, or Dusty Baker’s “in game strategy” is abit useless in debates.

 

That's oversimplistic. Every decision doesn't have a 50/50 chance. The point is many decisions are overly risky, high risk low reward. The better thing would be to not make the moves. The problem is most managers feel they need to prove their worth (and smarts) by overmanaging, which can hurt your chances.

[SouthSideRyan]

What about some of the other managers that have won it in the last 2O years? Dierker, McKeon (2), Cox (3), LaRussa (2), Lasorda (2), Torre, Kelly, Sparky Anderson (2), etc.

 

Which ones were undeserving? Obviously they were just "middle of the road" managers like Leyland (3) and Girardi (this year's winners). Rolling Eyes

 

I have no clue what you're getting at. Are you arguing that Dusty Baker is a good manager? I never said or remotely implied that winning manager of the year means you aren't a good manager. My point is winning manager of the year means less than winning a gold glove.

 

As for the etc. in your manager of the year list, here's who they are:

 

Jimy Williams, Jerry Manuel, Larry Bowa, Don Baylor, Don Zimmer, Gene Lamont, JEFF TORBORG.

[The Voice of Reason]

Southside Ryan wrote:

 

I have no clue what you're getting at. Are you arguing that Dusty Baker is a good manager? I never said or remotely implied that winning manager of the year means you aren't a good manager. My point is winning manager of the year means less than winning a gold glove.

 

As for the etc. in your manager of the year list, here's who they are:

 

Jimy Williams, Jerry Manuel, Larry Bowa, Don Baylor, Don Zimmer, Gene Lamont, JEFF TORBORG

 

SSR - Specifically what Managers had better years than the above managers you reference (apparently as undeserving) during the years they won Manager of the Year?