Murton as trade bait?

[BigbadB]

Would it be unrealistic to think the Cubs could add a power corner outfield bat and keep Murton? Slide Jones over to CF and voila.

 

IMO, yes that is unrealistic.

 

Why?

[mg420]

There's the right way of creating the roster and then there's the Hendry way. Sometimes there has been overlap between the two ways, but most of the time there hasn't been any.

 

The right way of doing this is to recognize that Theriot and Murton can give the Cubs quality production at 2B and LF at very cheap prices, and to spend money (through trades or free agency) on adding power at SS and CF or RF (if Jones can be moved to CF).

 

Of course, the Hendry way will be to trade Murton, stick Theriot in utility, let Izturis and Cedeno be your no hitting/slick fielding DP combo, and spend oodles of money on Carlos Lee in LF.

 

Oh, so to answer your question: don't trade Murton!

 

Hoops, do you really project Theriot as an everyday starter for the Cubs? I, like everyone, love what he has done for the Cubs in limited time this year...but is Theriot the Cubs version of Bo Hart (the 2B guy with the cool name that puts up inflated numbers in limited appearances)?

 

i do. i like everythin i've seen from him. he could be a marcus giles/freel/loretta type player imo-.280-.300 with 10 hr's & 25+ sb. he is also good on the bases and very solid defensively.

[TheDude]

Would it be unrealistic to think the Cubs could add a power corner outfield bat and keep Murton? Slide Jones over to CF and voila.

 

IMO, yes that is unrealistic.

 

Why?

Hendry has shown only a limited willingness to gamble defensively. Moving Cedeno to 2B wasn't much of a stretch. Bouncing Hairston Jr. around wasn't very smart or effective. Otherwise, I can only think of him asking Garciaparra to consider LF as the only other non-injury defensive shift he has considered for an everyday player during his tenure.

 

Moreover, Hendry is old-school. Defense up the middle is a priority for him (unless blown away by MVP-esque numbers at one of those positions, such as what Soriano brings at 2B), and I am guessing he would view Jones as a below average CF.

 

Moreover, I believe Hendry has already penciled Pierre in as next year's CF, and quite possibly beyond.

 

It is only my opinion, and I responded because you specifically asked, but taking those three considerations into account, I don't see Hendry even looking at Jones as a CF option in a non-injury replacement scenario.

[HoopsCubs]

There's the right way of creating the roster and then there's the Hendry way. Sometimes there has been overlap between the two ways, but most of the time there hasn't been any.

 

The right way of doing this is to recognize that Theriot and Murton can give the Cubs quality production at 2B and LF at very cheap prices, and to spend money (through trades or free agency) on adding power at SS and CF or RF (if Jones can be moved to CF).

 

Of course, the Hendry way will be to trade Murton, stick Theriot in utility, let Izturis and Cedeno be your no hitting/slick fielding DP combo, and spend oodles of money on Carlos Lee in LF.

 

Oh, so to answer your question: don't trade Murton!

 

Hoops, do you really project Theriot as an everyday starter for the Cubs? I, like everyone, love what he has done for the Cubs in limited time this year...but is Theriot the Cubs version of Bo Hart (the 2B guy with the cool name that puts up inflated numbers in limited appearances)?

 

Hey, why not? I've seen more from this guy in 3 weeks than fricking Ronny Cedeno has shown me in 5+ months. And there isn't a young superstar waiting on the free agency market. Sure, I'd take Ray Durham for a season, but he'll get a 3 year deal somewhere, which is too much risk. I'd go with Ryan and let him lead-off.

[TheDude]

Hey, why not? I've seen more from this guy in 3 weeks than fricking Ronny Cedeno has shown me in 5+ months. And there isn't a young superstar waiting on the free agency market. Sure, I'd take Ray Durham for a season, but he'll get a 3 year deal somewhere, which is too much risk. I'd go with Ryan and let him lead-off.

 

I can see that approach being used in a mid or low market team. But I don't see the Cubs or any other large market team gambling on more than one young non-stud position player in the everyday lineup (the Mets with Reyes and Wright are an exception, because those two are exceptional players).

 

The Cubs will be expected to reload instead of rebuild.

 

In other words, I think Murton has an edge over Theriot as that one guy to gamble on, unless Murton pushed out for a power LF. Then maybe Theriot gets the job. In order to consider both Murton and Theriot, you'd have to really improve SS and CF, but the market for those positions is tighter than LF and 2B, and the current GM has a love affair with guys already on the roster at those positions (Izturis and Pierre).

[BigbadB]

Maybe I'm off base (no pun intended), but I think Jacque Jones would be a better CF than Pierre defensively AND offensively.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Jones is a bad defensive RF, he'd be quite poor defensively in CF. I really don't want him put there for any extended period of time. It's much easier to just find him a platoon partner(or trade for a stud RF and platoon him and Murton in LF, which would be expensive but ideal).

[mg420]

Hey, why not? I've seen more from this guy in 3 weeks than fricking Ronny Cedeno has shown me in 5+ months. And there isn't a young superstar waiting on the free agency market. Sure, I'd take Ray Durham for a season, but he'll get a 3 year deal somewhere, which is too much risk. I'd go with Ryan and let him lead-off.

 

I can see that approach being used in a mid or low market team. But I don't see the Cubs or any other large market team gambling on more than one young non-stud position player in the everyday lineup (the Mets with Reyes and Wright are an exception, because those two are exceptional players).

 

The Cubs will be expected to reload instead of rebuild.

 

In other words, I think Murton has an edge over Theriot as that one guy to gamble on, unless Murton pushed out for a power LF. Then maybe Theriot gets the job. In order to consider both Murton and Theriot, you'd have to really improve SS and CF, but the market for those positions is tighter than LF and 2B, and the current GM has a love affair with guys already on the roster at those positions (Izturis and Pierre).

 

if thats the way the cubs think they they deserve to lose. they only thing they should be "expected" to do is win. if they havent learned yet that they arent going to win by signing high priced free agents instead of looking to their own system, there is little hope for the future imo.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Hey, why not? I've seen more from this guy in 3 weeks than fricking Ronny Cedeno has shown me in 5+ months. And there isn't a young superstar waiting on the free agency market. Sure, I'd take Ray Durham for a season, but he'll get a 3 year deal somewhere, which is too much risk. I'd go with Ryan and let him lead-off.

 

I can see that approach being used in a mid or low market team. But I don't see the Cubs or any other large market team gambling on more than one young non-stud position player in the everyday lineup (the Mets with Reyes and Wright are an exception, because those two are exceptional players).

 

The Cubs will be expected to reload instead of rebuild.

 

In other words, I think Murton has an edge over Theriot as that one guy to gamble on, unless Murton pushed out for a power LF. Then maybe Theriot gets the job. In order to consider both Murton and Theriot, you'd have to really improve SS and CF, but the market for those positions is tighter than LF and 2B, and the current GM has a love affair with guys already on the roster at those positions (Izturis and Pierre).

 

if thats the way the cubs think they they deserve to lose. they only thing they should be "expected" to do is win. if they havent learned yet that they arent going to win by signing high priced free agents instead of looking to their own system, there is little hope for the future imo.

 

You have to balance the two. The Cubs have a high payroll, and it would be foolish for them not to use it. They can be more efficient by spending big in certain areas if they go young in others. With Hill/Marmol/Marshall/Guzman/Mateo competing for a rotation spot, Murton a strong possibility to be a full-time starter, and Pie ready/nearly ready for the big leagues, there's not a lot of need to overslot a utility guy into 2B and leadoff.

[goonys evil twin]

Jones is a bad defensive RF, he'd be quite poor defensively in CF. I really don't want him put there for any extended period of time. It's much easier to just find him a platoon partner(or trade for a stud RF and platoon him and Murton in LF, which would be expensive but ideal).

 

I can't see him being any worse than Pierre in CF. It might be smarter to find a stud RF and platoon Jones with Murton, the problem is there's no chance in hell Hendry even considers such a move.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Jones is a bad defensive RF, he'd be quite poor defensively in CF. I really don't want him put there for any extended period of time. It's much easier to just find him a platoon partner(or trade for a stud RF and platoon him and Murton in LF, which would be expensive but ideal).

 

I can't see him being any worse than Pierre in CF. It might be smarter to find a stud RF and platoon Jones with Murton, the problem is there's no chance in hell Hendry even considers such a move.

 

Is it more likely that he considers Jones in CF? He's played 11 games there in the last 6 years. I honestly don't think he'd be a significant improvement defensively over Pierre, with a chance that he'd be worse, with his poor arm(a different bad arm than Pierre though) and less footspeed to cover the gaps that I doubt his route running would make up for.

[mg420]

Hey, why not? I've seen more from this guy in 3 weeks than fricking Ronny Cedeno has shown me in 5+ months. And there isn't a young superstar waiting on the free agency market. Sure, I'd take Ray Durham for a season, but he'll get a 3 year deal somewhere, which is too much risk. I'd go with Ryan and let him lead-off.

 

I can see that approach being used in a mid or low market team. But I don't see the Cubs or any other large market team gambling on more than one young non-stud position player in the everyday lineup (the Mets with Reyes and Wright are an exception, because those two are exceptional players).

 

The Cubs will be expected to reload instead of rebuild.

 

In other words, I think Murton has an edge over Theriot as that one guy to gamble on, unless Murton pushed out for a power LF. Then maybe Theriot gets the job. In order to consider both Murton and Theriot, you'd have to really improve SS and CF, but the market for those positions is tighter than LF and 2B, and the current GM has a love affair with guys already on the roster at those positions (Izturis and Pierre).

 

if thats the way the cubs think they they deserve to lose. they only thing they should be "expected" to do is win. if they havent learned yet that they arent going to win by signing high priced free agents instead of looking to their own system, there is little hope for the future imo.

 

You have to balance the two. The Cubs have a high payroll, and it would be foolish for them not to use it. They can be more efficient by spending big in certain areas if they go young in others. With Hill/Marmol/Marshall/Guzman/Mateo competing for a rotation spot, Murton a strong possibility to be a full-time starter, and Pie ready/nearly ready for the big leagues, there's not a lot of need to overslot a utility guy into 2B and leadoff.

 

thats true-but i dont think theriot is just a utlility player (unless you consider guys like marcus giles, loretta & freel utility players).

[goonys evil twin]

thats true-but i dont think theriot is just a utlility player (unless you consider guys like marcus giles, loretta & freel utility players).

 

You simply can't put that type of comparison on a player who has only been this productive in such a short amount of time. This is just as bad as being overly judgemental of Hill's small sample of poor major league outings.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

thats true-but i dont think theriot is just a utlility player (unless you consider guys like marcus giles, loretta & freel utility players).

 

Theriot just isn't at that level, I'm afraid.

[mg420]

thats true-but i dont think theriot is just a utlility player (unless you consider guys like marcus giles, loretta & freel utility players).

 

Theriot just isn't at that level, I'm afraid.

just as with hill and murton, only time will tell if he is or isnt.

[goonys evil twin]

thats true-but i dont think theriot is just a utlility player (unless you consider guys like marcus giles, loretta & freel utility players).

 

Theriot just isn't at that level, I'm afraid.

just as with hill and murton, only time will tell if he is or isnt.

 

It's not the same. Hill and Murton produced for several years in the minors. Theriot established himself as potential utility player. 100 ABs doesn't change that.

[SouthSideRyan]

I can't believe people think Jones would be equivalent to Pierre defensively in CF. I was leary of Pierre's defense coming into this season, as his rep wasn't so great, but his range has impressed me, even with his awful awful throwing arm, he's been above average as a CF. There's no way Jones becomes an above average CF.

[goonys evil twin]

I can't believe people think Jones would be equivalent to Pierre defensively in CF. I was leary of Pierre's defense coming into this season, as his rep wasn't so great, but his range has impressed me, even with his awful awful throwing arm, he's been above average as a CF. There's no way Jones becomes an above average CF.

 

The only thing Pierre has is speed. But he needs it because he doesn't get good jumps, nor take good routes. I really don't think he covers much more ground than what Jones would cover. Certainly not enough to offset the offensive difference.

[mg420]

thats true-but i dont think theriot is just a utlility player (unless you consider guys like marcus giles, loretta & freel utility players).

 

You simply can't put that type of comparison on a player who has only been this productive in such a short amount of time. This is just as bad as being overly judgemental of Hill's small sample of poor major league outings.

 

perhaps, but you also cant overlook what he's done and relagate him to a utility role either imo.

[goonys evil twin]

thats true-but i dont think theriot is just a utlility player (unless you consider guys like marcus giles, loretta & freel utility players).

 

You simply can't put that type of comparison on a player who has only been this productive in such a short amount of time. This is just as bad as being overly judgemental of Hill's small sample of poor major league outings.

 

perhaps, but you also cant overlook what he's done and relagate him to a utility role either imo.

 

I'm not overlooking anything, I'm looking at the whole picture. I see no reason why he can't compete for a starting job, but any competent GM should have him penciled in as utility next year (if anything, his small sample of great numbers shows he won't get embarrassed in the bigs) with a much more likely producer as the starter. There's no reason to settle on him at 2B right now.

[BigbadB]

I can't believe people think Jones would be equivalent to Pierre defensively in CF. I was leary of Pierre's defense coming into this season, as his rep wasn't so great, but his range has impressed me, even with his awful awful throwing arm, he's been above average as a CF. There's no way Jones becomes an above average CF.

 

I was always under the impression Jones could have started in CF all along, but got moved because Torrii Hunter was better there. Maybe I'm way off. Admittedly, I really don't know if Jones could handle CF, but have always just assumed he could.

[goonys evil twin]

I can't believe people think Jones would be equivalent to Pierre defensively in CF. I was leary of Pierre's defense coming into this season, as his rep wasn't so great, but his range has impressed me, even with his awful awful throwing arm, he's been above average as a CF. There's no way Jones becomes an above average CF.

 

I was always under the impression Jones could have started in CF all along, but got moved because Torrii Hunter was better there. Maybe I'm way off. Admittedly, I really don't know if Jones could handle CF, but have always just assumed he could.

 

I seem to think lots of other teams have moved guys to CF when the need arose. I think teams can survive with less than ideal defensive CFers, especially if you are getting solid production, relative to the position.

[soccer10k]

thats true-but i dont think theriot is just a utlility player (unless you consider guys like marcus giles, loretta & freel utility players).

 

You simply can't put that type of comparison on a player who has only been this productive in such a short amount of time. This is just as bad as being overly judgemental of Hill's small sample of poor major league outings.

 

perhaps, but you also cant overlook what he's done and relagate him to a utility role either imo.

 

I'm not overlooking anything, I'm looking at the whole picture. I see no reason why he can't compete for a starting job, but any competent GM should have him penciled in as utility next year (if anything, his small sample of great numbers shows he won't get embarrassed in the bigs) with a much more likely producer as the starter. There's no reason to settle on him at 2B right now.

 

Yeah, I think it depends on what the Cubs do in the offseason and what signings/trades they make. If they sign Soriano to play 2B, then obviously Theriot is out of luck. But if they get power somewhere else, whether that means in LF and or CF, then let Theriot compete for a starting job. But I definitely think the Cubs should try to improve on Theriot at 2B if they have the opportunity to.

[SouthSideRyan]

I can't believe people think Jones would be equivalent to Pierre defensively in CF. I was leary of Pierre's defense coming into this season, as his rep wasn't so great, but his range has impressed me, even with his awful awful throwing arm, he's been above average as a CF. There's no way Jones becomes an above average CF.

 

The only thing Pierre has is speed. But he needs it because he doesn't get good jumps, nor take good routes. I really don't think he covers much more ground than what Jones would cover. Certainly not enough to offset the offensive difference.

 

I hate defensive metrics, but according to Chris Dial at BTF, Pierre's been the best defensive CF in the NL this year, which since it matches my opinion of this year, I"ll reference it :)

[mg420]

I can't believe people think Jones would be equivalent to Pierre defensively in CF. I was leary of Pierre's defense coming into this season, as his rep wasn't so great, but his range has impressed me, even with his awful awful throwing arm, he's been above average as a CF. There's no way Jones becomes an above average CF.

 

The only thing Pierre has is speed. But he needs it because he doesn't get good jumps, nor take good routes. I really don't think he covers much more ground than what Jones would cover. Certainly not enough to offset the offensive difference.

 

I hate defensive metrics, but according to Chris Dial at BTF, Pierre's been the best defensive CF in the NL this year, which since it matches my opinion of this year, I"ll reference it :)

 

besides the range factor, pierre has zero errors and jones has 7. aside from pierre's arm (which is not much if at all worse than jones's) he is one of if not the best in cf this year. he doesnt get the recognition because he doesnt make the hot dog type plays like edmunds does.