Liriano has Cubs syndrome

[CaliforniaRaisin]

As I've said before, I feel really bad for Liriano, but at the same time, it's nice to know this crap doesn't happen only to us.

 

The difference is that the Twins took just about every precaution with Liriano while the Cubs have been reckless with Prior, Wood and Zambrano.

[TruffleShuffle]

According to the Minneapolis Star-Tribune, Liriano's MRI showed no new damage in his elbow - just a mild tear in the ulnar collateral ligament. He's likely to get a second opinion, but if true this is great news. He's an exciting young player and I hope to see him pitching for the Twins in 2007.

[soccer10k]

As I've said before, I feel really bad for Liriano, but at the same time, it's nice to know this crap doesn't happen only to us.

 

The difference is that the Twins took just about every precaution with Liriano while the Cubs have been reckless with Prior, Wood and Zambrano.

 

Aside from the pitch counts, I don't see any difference in the way the Twins dealt with Liriano's injury and the way the Cubs have dealt with Prior/Wood.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

As I've said before, I feel really bad for Liriano, but at the same time, it's nice to know this crap doesn't happen only to us.

 

The difference is that the Twins took just about every precaution with Liriano while the Cubs have been reckless with Prior, Wood and Zambrano.

 

Aside from the pitch counts, I don't see any difference in the way the Twins dealt with Liriano's injury and the way the Cubs have dealt with Prior/Wood.

 

The pitch counts are a ginormous factor.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

As I've said before, I feel really bad for Liriano, but at the same time, it's nice to know this crap doesn't happen only to us.

 

The difference is that the Twins took just about every precaution with Liriano while the Cubs have been reckless with Prior, Wood and Zambrano.

 

Aside from the pitch counts, I don't see any difference in the way the Twins dealt with Liriano's injury and the way the Cubs have dealt with Prior/Wood.

 

Liriano has been watched very closely. He started out in the bullpen in his first full major league season and then went to the pen. His IP (had he not gotten hurt) would have been in line with his previous two minor league seasons (unlike, say, Prior, who added 50 innings from his rookie season to his second season).

 

You noted the pitch counts. It's a big deal. Liriano is averaging 89.4 pitches/game. In 2003, Prior led the league in P/GS at 113.4. Wood had 109.1 in his rookie year in 1998. Z was at 106.6 P/GS in his first full season as a starter in 2003. You don't want to push young arms anywhere near a breaking point, especially in their first few seasons.

 

The Twins were very careful bringing him back from the injury too - he was brought along slowly. The Cubs don't always seem to show this type of caution bringing back Prior and Wood (especially Wood in 1998 - what was the point of pitching him in Game 3?).

 

You could say there wasn't as much information about pitcher abuse in 2002-03 or even 1998 as there is now. This certainly is true. There's much more information out there and the Twins aren't the only team going to such great lengths to protect their young pitchers. But Dusty still pushes Zamrbano and Hill in a wasted season.

[KingCubsFan]

As I've said before, I feel really bad for Liriano, but at the same time, it's nice to know this crap doesn't happen only to us.

 

The difference is that the Twins took just about every precaution with Liriano while the Cubs have been reckless with Prior, Wood and Zambrano.

 

Aside from the pitch counts, I don't see any difference in the way the Twins dealt with Liriano's injury and the way the Cubs have dealt with Prior/Wood.

 

Liriano has been watched very closely. He started out in the bullpen in his first full major league season and then went to the pen. His IP (had he not gotten hurt) would have been in line with his previous two minor league seasons (unlike, say, Prior, who added 50 innings from his rookie season to his second season).

 

You noted the pitch counts. It's a big deal. Liriano is averaging 89.4 pitches/game. In 2003, Prior led the league in P/GS at 113.4. Wood had 109.1 in his rookie year in 1998. Z was at 106.6 P/GS in his first full season as a starter in 2003. You don't want to push young arms anywhere near a breaking point, especially in their first few seasons.

 

The Twins were very careful bringing him back from the injury too - he was brought along slowly. The Cubs don't always seem to show this type of caution bringing back Prior and Wood (especially Wood in 1998 - what was the point of pitching him in Game 3?).

 

You could say there wasn't as much information about pitcher abuse in 2002-03 or even 1998 as there is now. This certainly is true. There's much more information out there and the Twins aren't the only team going to such great lengths to protect their young pitchers. But Dusty still pushes Zamrbano and Hill in a wasted season.

In 1998, didn't Wood take over a month off before pitching in the playoffs? And when he did pitch in the playoffs, wasn't he only allowed to throw fastballs and changeups? IMO, the Cubs were more cautious with Wood in '98 than the Twins have been with Liriano's injury. Prior, of course, is a different story.

[Jon]

Pitcher Abuse Points

 

2006:

Francisco Liriano - 93 (average PAP), 1 (stress)

 

2003:

Kerry Wood - 8162 (average PAP), 73 (stress), ranked 2nd in overall PAP

Mark Prior - 7746 (average PAP), 68 (stress), ranked 4th in overall PAP

Carlos Zambrano - 3463 (average PAP), 32 (stress), ranked 10th in overall PAP

 

1998:

Kerry Wood - 6451 (average PAP), 58 (stress), ranked 21st in overall PAP

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Thanks, Jon.

 

Francisco Liriano is ranked 141st this year (partly due to the missed time, but how much higher would he really go up? Heck, Johan Santana is ranked 60th in overall PAP).

 

A couple guys ahead of Liriano? Carlos Marmol and Rich Hill.

[Soul]

Thanks, Jon.

 

Francisco Liriano is ranked 141st this year (partly due to the missed time, but how much higher would he really go up? Heck, Johan Santana is ranked 60th in overall PAP).

 

A couple guys ahead of Liriano? Carlos Marmol and Rich Hill.

 

Is this good news though? My point being if he didn't hold up at that level, what hope is there that he will be able to string together 2 or 3 years of full time workhorse pitching?

 

Fantastic arm. It would be a shame if he went the Wood route.

[UK1679666180]

Thanks, Jon.

 

Francisco Liriano is ranked 141st this year (partly due to the missed time, but how much higher would he really go up? Heck, Johan Santana is ranked 60th in overall PAP).

 

A couple guys ahead of Liriano? Carlos Marmol and Rich Hill.

 

Is this good news though? My point being if he didn't hold up at that level, what hope is there that he will be able to string together 2 or 3 years of full time workhorse pitching?

 

Fantastic arm. It would be a shame if he went the Wood route.

 

Depends on how well he can improve mechanically over time and his off-season and in-season conditioning programs and luck (or bad luck this case).

 

Usage is just one of many factors that could lead to a potential injury, especially with Liriano's arm angle.

[Guest]

Thanks, Jon.

 

Francisco Liriano is ranked 141st this year (partly due to the missed time, but how much higher would he really go up? Heck, Johan Santana is ranked 60th in overall PAP).

 

A couple guys ahead of Liriano? Carlos Marmol and Rich Hill.

 

Is this good news though? My point being if he didn't hold up at that level, what hope is there that he will be able to string together 2 or 3 years of full time workhorse pitching?

 

Fantastic arm. It would be a shame if he went the Wood route.

 

Depends on how well he can improve mechanically over time and his off-season and in-season conditioning programs and luck (or bad luck this case).

 

Usage is just one of many factors that could lead to a potential injury, especially with Liriano's arm angle.

 

Luck has nothing to do with it. that's just used to explain the things we don't understand.

 

I am not sure this news is really that great. That ligament is damaged - how likely is it to hold up? Would he be better off going TJS now? This is tough for the Twins because he will now be a big question mark going into next year.

[UK1679666180]

Agreed that luck is basically an unexplained event, a pitcher can have perfect mechanics, ideal workloads, and solid eating and in-season and off-season cont. programs and still suffer arm injuries. No could find a reason why he got injured, there probably isn't a sound reason.

 

For Liriano, that doesn't appear to be the case as he isn't where he needs to be mechanically to endure the stress he is putting on his elbow.

 

I'm not in a position to gauge the severity of his injury.

[Guest]

Agreed that luck is basically an unexplained event, a pitcher can have perfect mechanics, ideal workloads, and solid eating and in-season and off-season cont. programs and still suffer arm injuries. No could find a reason why he got injured, there probably isn't a sound reason.

 

For Liriano, that doesn't appear to be the case as he isn't where he needs to be mechanically to endure the stress he is putting on his elbow.

 

I'm not in a position to gauge the severity of his injury.

 

None of us are.

 

This is why you have to mitigate risk factors. There are things you cannot control and you cannot prevent all injuries, but you can reduce your risk. The Cubs do a very poor job of this in my opinion and the results are evident.