a day later....

[bring stone back]

I know many of you didn't like the Izturis trade but I didn't think it wasn't bad at all. Here are my reasons:

 

1. Coletti has stated publicly that this was in the works for nearly a month and Hendry wanted two prospects that Coletti just would not give up for Maddux. For those who say Hendry gave up the opportunity to get Kemp and Guzman type players for Izturis are wrong. For Lugo...yes, but obviously not Maddux or this trade would have been made some time ago.

 

2. Maddux is old, would likely not have resigned with us and frankly not good (forget the sentimental attachment).

 

3. Maddux serves absolutely no purpose to us now. We as fans have already written off this season and now management has, too. It's time we give Hill, Marmol and Marshall starts every 5th day to try to figure out what we have for next year and try to instill some confidence in them going into the Spring.

 

4. We're getting a young shortstop who has been to one All-Star game already and many recognize as one of the best defensive shortstops in baseball. If he continues to develop at the plate, we could have a fixture at shortstop for years to come while giving up essentially nothing but a name and a memory of what he used to be.

 

5. Hendry was hamstrung from the get-go of who he could send Maddux to because of his short list of teams he'd agree to go to. Don't think for a second those approved teams didn't know that and use that as leverage against Hendry.

 

I know some of you who subscribe to the Rob Neyer school of baseball will point to his OPS and say he sucks, but he's shown flashes at the plate. As he continue to get more at bats, I hope that improves but you can't just rate every player and acquisition by his OPS and I feel are vastly underrating his defense, especially when he's playing next to Ramirez and what it brings to the psyche of a pitcher.

 

Agree or don't agree but bringing in Izturis wasn't much of a risk at all and the potential upside is well worth it. I can recall many on this board not too long ago saying we aren't fundamentally sound on defense and Cedeno was known for his defense but it often times doesn't look like it. Well....we made a change to adress those concerns so let's see how it works out.

[Drew Doughty]

A lot of us have pointed out how defense is really not a problem with this team.

 

I don't think anyone is opposed to trading Maddux, is trading Maddux while not shedding salary sans about 2 million dollars that upsets us most.

 

And Izturis sucks at the plate. Any success he had may have been fluky as he was about at the same level in the minors as he is now.

 

And he's coming off of TJS.

[bring stone back]

A lot of us have pointed out how defense is really not a problem with this team.

 

I don't think anyone is opposed to trading Maddux, is trading Maddux while not shedding salary sans about 2 million dollars that upsets us most.

 

And Izturis sucks at the plate. Any success he had may have been fluky as he was about at the same level in the minors as he is now.

 

And he's coming off of TJS.

 

As a fan, you're really concerned about giving up the $2 million? We're not the Devil Rays or Marlins. If a move comes along you believe in...you gotta pay it.

 

(I laugh when I hear fans say look at our payroll and how bad we are YET say we can't depend on Wood and Prior anymore. Fine, if that's the case, then don't give me the payroll argument. The two of them are getting maybe $18 million this year mostly on the DL. It's one or the other).

 

Nobody has ever recovered from Tommy John surgery?

 

The guy is 26 and was having a career year before an injury. He's still young and with more at bats I'd like to think his bat will improve.

 

What I am saying is I'd rather have Izturis than a couple of mid-level prospects. It's worth it to bring him in and see what happens.

Edited August 2, 2006 by bring stone back

[Handlebar McSkullet]

And he's coming off of TJS.

 

Yeah, his curveball sucks now.

[Drew Doughty]

last year was not a breakout year for him. The year before was and it was still a pretty atrocious offensive year.

 

and I wanted to free up about 7-8m to spend on other players, not to put in the trib's pocket. you should get all the money you can out of a deal if you're selling. I'd rather have middling prospects because they aren't going to cost money and prospects typically have upside. Izturis has upside, but it seems unlikely it's more than being a mediocre hitting defensive shortstop.

[YearofDaCubs]

People that actually thought we would get a top prospect for Maddux are delusional. That being said, acquiring the second coming of Neifi with a bad contract was even worse than staying pat.

[Handlebar McSkullet]

I have to disagree. We didnt lose money to spend next year. And I dont think Izturis [is breaking the bank] (i editted this not realizing he makes 3.2 mil). We gained a 26 year old all star short stop. We werent getting Either or Guzman, but instead we have one of the better ss in the nl, offensively lacking or not. Edited August 2, 2006 by Handlebar McSkullet

[YearofDaCubs]

I have to disagree. We didnt lose money to spend next year. And I dont think Izturis is breaking the bank. We gained a 26 year old all star short stop. We werent getting Either or Guzman, but instead we have one of the better ss in the nl, offensively lacking or not.

All-star shortstop? Not in my books. That's a title that doesn't tell the whole story. Izturis, aside from his glove isn't really good. He's a Neifi clone.

[USSoccer]

I have to disagree. We didnt lose money to spend next year. And I dont think Izturis is breaking the bank. We gained a 26 year old all star short stop. We werent getting Either or Guzman, but instead we have one of the better ss in the nl, offensively lacking or not.

 

Izturis will make about $4.5m next season and $5.5m in 2008. So we actually did lose money to spend. About...$4.5m worth.

 

That adds up. Rusch + Neifi + Izturis is about $10m in waste. If we just had Izturis, it would be one thing. Together, the three of them take up more than 10% of our payroll. That's ridiculous.

[Handlebar McSkullet]

Refer back to my now editted post

[bring stone back]

I have to disagree. We didnt lose money to spend next year. And I dont think Izturis is breaking the bank. We gained a 26 year old all star short stop. We werent getting Either or Guzman, but instead we have one of the better ss in the nl, offensively lacking or not.

All-star shortstop? Not in my books. That's a title that doesn't tell the whole story. Izturis, aside from his glove isn't really good. He's a Neifi clone.

 

Except he's 10 years younger with a chance to improve at the plate. He's worth a shot.

[Geech]

All-star shortstop? Not in my books. That's a title that doesn't tell the whole story. Izturis, aside from his glove isn't really good. He's a Neifi clone.

 

An expensive Neifi clone that puts the Cobs on the hook for something like 4.5 million next year. This is just more of Hendry overpaying for mediocre players.

 

Oops, looks like I'm a little slow on the draw.

Edited August 2, 2006 by Geech

[rocket]

(I laugh when I hear fans say look at our payroll and how bad we are YET say we can't depend on Wood and Prior anymore. Fine, if that's the case, then don't give me the payroll argument. The two of them are getting maybe $18 million this year mostly on the DL. It's one or the other).

 

I don't get the link you're making between the 2 at all.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

My problem with Izturis is that he's due 4.5 million next season and brings little value other than his glove. If the Cubs decide to go with a Ceden0-Izturis MI, we'll have two black holes in the offense. Considering that Jacque Jones is also signed for next season, the potential to upgrade the offense exists only in left and center field.

[bring stone back]

I have to disagree. We didnt lose money to spend next year. And I dont think Izturis is breaking the bank. We gained a 26 year old all star short stop. We werent getting Either or Guzman, but instead we have one of the better ss in the nl, offensively lacking or not.

 

Izturis will make about $4.5m next season and $5.5m in 2008. So we actually did lose money to spend. About...$4.5m worth.

 

That adds up. Rusch + Neifi + Izturis is about $10m in waste. If we just had Izturis, it would be one thing. Together, the three of them take up more than 10% of our payroll. That's ridiculous.

 

Why are fans so concerned about payroll? I'm pretty sure you're not the one cutting the checks and the guys who are seemed comfortable with the move so what's the problem?

 

It's not like we're the Marlins or the Rays and have fire sales every 3 years. Management has proven they'll pay for talent. I highly doubt these contracts will stop us from going after a Soriano or a Lee next year.

[Geech]

Except he's 10 years younger with a chance to improve at the plate. He's worth a shot.

 

Worth a shot, maybe, but not at 4.5 million.

[rocket]

I have to disagree. We didnt lose money to spend next year. And I dont think Izturis is breaking the bank. We gained a 26 year old all star short stop. We werent getting Either or Guzman, but instead we have one of the better ss in the nl, offensively lacking or not.

 

Izturis will make about $4.5m next season and $5.5m in 2008. So we actually did lose money to spend. About...$4.5m worth.

 

That adds up. Rusch + Neifi + Izturis is about $10m in waste. If we just had Izturis, it would be one thing. Together, the three of them take up more than 10% of our payroll. That's ridiculous.

 

Why are fans so concerned about payroll? I'm pretty sure you're not the one cutting the checks and the guys who are seemed comfortable with the move so what's the problem?

 

It's not like we're the Marlins or the Rays and have fire sales every 3 years. Management has proven they'll pay for talent. I highly doubt these contracts will stop us from going after a Soriano or a Lee next year.

 

They'll pay for talent? Like who?

[Geech]

They'll pay for talent? Like who?

 

Rusch, Jones and Neifi. He never claimed they paid for good talent.

[USSoccer]

I have to disagree. We didnt lose money to spend next year. And I dont think Izturis is breaking the bank. We gained a 26 year old all star short stop. We werent getting Either or Guzman, but instead we have one of the better ss in the nl, offensively lacking or not.

 

Izturis will make about $4.5m next season and $5.5m in 2008. So we actually did lose money to spend. About...$4.5m worth.

 

That adds up. Rusch + Neifi + Izturis is about $10m in waste. If we just had Izturis, it would be one thing. Together, the three of them take up more than 10% of our payroll. That's ridiculous.

 

Why are fans so concerned about payroll? I'm pretty sure you're not the one cutting the checks and the guys who are seemed comfortable with the move so what's the problem?

 

It's not like we're the Marlins or the Rays and have fire sales every 3 years. Management has proven they'll pay for talent. I highly doubt these contracts will stop us from going after a Soriano or a Lee next year.

 

It won't stop them from being interested, but the extra salary that's being wasted will definetly hurt them in the bidding war that's sure to ensure over the 3 best FA this winter, not to mention making sure Aramis stays.

 

Keep in mind that this winter's FA class sucks. There will be a lot of interest in a small number of players. Every dollar available helps, because while Soriano and Lee will be wildly overpaid, it's one thing to overpay and get production, and another to overpay on less-than average players like Rusch, Perez, and now Izturis.

 

EDIT:

 

Let me say that if we did not have Perez, I'd be less ambivalent toward Izturis. Having both is just stupid from a roster and payroll perspective. Planning on a middle IF of Cedeno/Izturis is asking, begging to struggle offensively.

Edited August 2, 2006 by USSoccer

[bring stone back]

(I laugh when I hear fans say look at our payroll and how bad we are YET say we can't depend on Wood and Prior anymore. Fine, if that's the case, then don't give me the payroll argument. The two of them are getting maybe $18 million this year mostly on the DL. It's one or the other).

 

I don't get the link you're making between the 2 at all.

 

What I'm saying is I'm sick of people that say "we can't rely on Wood or Prior at all" like they're not even part of the team and if they become the 4th or 5th starters...great.

 

All while Prior and Wood account for roughly $18 million this year. How can you complain about our high payroll and lack of success when 20% of the payroll is always on the DL? You can be sure if I were the GM and I had $13 million wrapped up in one player I'd damn well be counting on him...how can you not be counting on these two when they acouunt for so much of your payroll?

 

Our team's success is largely dependant on them. We can't look at these two as afterthoughts. They either have to produce like front-line starters or get rid of both of them.

[bring stone back]

Except he's 10 years younger with a chance to improve at the plate. He's worth a shot.

 

Worth a shot, maybe, but not at 4.5 million.

 

So what you are all really upset with is his contract then?

[A New Era]

People that actually thought we would get a top prospect for Maddux are delusional. That being said, acquiring the second coming of Neifi with a bad contract was even worse than staying pat.

 

A little extreme.

 

Izturis has some positives about him.

 

He takes more pitches per plate appearance

His last full season before injury had an OBP of .330 (

Is a better defender than neifi

And is young and can improve.

 

Saying he is a young neifi is nothing but blind hatred.

[USSoccer]

(I laugh when I hear fans say look at our payroll and how bad we are YET say we can't depend on Wood and Prior anymore. Fine, if that's the case, then don't give me the payroll argument. The two of them are getting maybe $18 million this year mostly on the DL. It's one or the other).

 

I don't get the link you're making between the 2 at all.

 

What I'm saying is I'm sick of people that say "we can't rely on Wood or Prior at all" like they're not even part of the team and if they become the 4th or 5th starters...great.

 

All while Prior and Wood account for roughly $18 million this year. How can you complain about our high payroll and lack of success when 20% of the payroll is always on the DL? You can be sure if I were the GM and I had $13 million wrapped up in one player I'd damn well be counting on him...how can you not be counting on these two when they acouunt for so much of your payroll?

 

Our team's success is largely dependant on them. We can't look at these two as afterthoughts. They either have to produce like front-line starters or get rid of both of them.

 

That has nothing to do with anything in this thread. Most people would agree that having 2 pitchers like that hurt all the time is a major handicap, but what most also say is that in order to not rely on the pitching staff, you need a consistent offense. That's what people mean when they say that Hendry is stupid for putting all his eggs in the pitching staff. You have to have balance.

 

I'll tie this all back into the Izturis subject, though: Having him on this team and planning on starting him and Cedeno in the middle IF means you have 2 positions where you will be below average offensively. That hurts your offense, which puts more pressure on the pitching staff that's always hurt.

Edited August 2, 2006 by USSoccer

[bring stone back]

They'll pay for talent? Like who?

 

Rusch, Jones and Neifi. He never claimed they paid for good talent.

 

Rusch and Neifi are overpaid...yes. I feel that Jacque Jones is a good player and is producing this year. We may have paid a little over market value, but he's been one of our most consistent weapons offensively this year and has played well in right field.

 

Don't throw Jacque in with those two...

[1908]

Saying he is a young neifi is nothing but blind hatred.

OPS+ per season over first 4 years of career.

 

Neifi

85

70

61

66

 

Cesar

52

61

88

68