WSox get MacDougal; 'extremely close' to acquiring Soriano?

[Tracer Bullet]

The game isn't value ball, it's baseball and Todd Walker's name should not be even associated with Soriano's. Good grief, some people should watch a game and then try to tell us Walker is a good ballplayer.

 

See, this is my problem. You want me to watch a game and then I'll know Soriano's better. You know what, I watch a lot of games. And for the 2 years before this one, Walker was better.

 

What I want you to do is watch some games, then realize that you cannot possibly compare two players after having seen one or both play just a handful of games. Maybe you watched every game that each guy played in each of the past 2 seasons. But I don't think that's probably true. You might have seen quite a few of Walker's games, b/c you call yourself a cubs fan. But I think you've seen some Soriano moon shots and see he was a 30/30 guy in the past and think he's better b/c he has all the hype and Walker has a bad rep. Well, I think that's a terrible way to compare players.

 

And frankly, I'm pretty friggin tired of having people tell me that I need to watch baseball, like I don't watch any games now. People who watch baseball can also use stats to measure players and can also, and this is the big point, DISAGREE WITH YOU.

[Illini Iceman]

The game isn't value ball, it's baseball and Todd Walker's name should not be even associated with Soriano's. Good grief, some people should watch a game and then try to tell us Walker is a good ballplayer.

 

See, this is my problem. You want me to watch a game and then I'll know Soriano's better. You know what, I watch a lot of games. And for the 2 years before this one, Walker was better.

 

What I want you to do is watch some games, then realize that you cannot possibly compare two players after having seen one or both play just a handful of games. Maybe you watched every game that each guy played in each of the past 2 seasons. But I don't think that's probably true. You might have seen quite a few of Walker's games, b/c you call yourself a cubs fan. But I think you've seen some Soriano moon shots and see he was a 30/30 guy in the past and think he's better b/c he has all the hype and Walker has a bad rep. Well, I think that's a terrible way to compare players.

 

And frankly, I'm pretty friggin tired of having people tell me that I need to watch baseball, like I don't watch any games now. People who watch baseball can also use stats to measure players and can also, and this is the big point, DISAGREE WITH YOU.

 

I suggest you contact Kenny Williams to explain your point of view. Maybe he will then trade Brandon McCarthy to the Cubs for Walker and forget all about that deal with the Nats.

[Tracer Bullet]

The game isn't value ball, it's baseball and Todd Walker's name should not be even associated with Soriano's. Good grief, some people should watch a game and then try to tell us Walker is a good ballplayer.

 

See, this is my problem. You want me to watch a game and then I'll know Soriano's better. You know what, I watch a lot of games. And for the 2 years before this one, Walker was better.

 

What I want you to do is watch some games, then realize that you cannot possibly compare two players after having seen one or both play just a handful of games. Maybe you watched every game that each guy played in each of the past 2 seasons. But I don't think that's probably true. You might have seen quite a few of Walker's games, b/c you call yourself a cubs fan. But I think you've seen some Soriano moon shots and see he was a 30/30 guy in the past and think he's better b/c he has all the hype and Walker has a bad rep. Well, I think that's a terrible way to compare players.

 

And frankly, I'm pretty friggin tired of having people tell me that I need to watch baseball, like I don't watch any games now. People who watch baseball can also use stats to measure players and can also, and this is the big point, DISAGREE WITH YOU.

 

I suggest you contact Kenny Williams to explain your point of view. Maybe he will then trade Brandon McCarthy to the Cubs for Walker and forget all about that deal with the Nats.

 

Smashing idea! But here's the thing, I don't want to stop KW from making that deal. Like I said before, I hope he gives up McCarthy for Soriano - and he goes right back to his .835 OPS - that would be perfect.

[NewUserName]

Kind of off subject but I want to throw a name out there and a stat. Dave Kingman in 1979 had a ops of .956. To me Soriano is Kingman with speed. He may be having a great year this year and I dont want to take that away from him. I just look at his Entire career and say to myself "Someones going to give this guy 12 Mill for the next 5 years and I hope its not the Cubs"

[Flames24Rulz]

Sox offense looked lethargic tonight against Radke and co. With the Sox now 7.5 out of the division and only 1.5 up in the wild card, I wouldn't be surprised to see Williams make a desparation move, even if it included giving up McCarthy.

 

Bottom line: I see this deal happening either early tomorrow or Wednesday.

[sherwood921]

From the first time I heard this rumor I've had a feeling that it's just a bluff. Not sure what it is.

[NorthsideAvenger]

First: Regardless of Williams personaly mantra of NOT trading anybody off the major league level, he WILL have to trade McCarthy, or he doesn' get Soriano, that simple. Contrary to popular belief the Nationals are still "in sight" of the Wild Card, and they won't trade Soriano the players they get---ie McCarthy---can help them in 06 and beyond. If Williams can't do that, Soriano will end up in Minnesota, which would piss Williams off.

 

Second: Even if Soriano goes to the White Sox, why would people assume Soriano would guarantee a World Series title for the Sox? The White Sox are 7 and 1/2 games back of Detroit, and anywhere from a 1 to like 4-5 games up on New York/Toronto/AL West runner up/Minny. Right now...White Sox are not EVEN guaranteed a spot in the playoffs, much less the World Series.

 

Third: Soriano is still the overrated/overhyped player he always has been. The difference this yr is....he actually using his "tools" instead of relying onhis athlethicism.

[da bears]

What you said, NorthsideAvenger.

[WindyCity]

If I were KW, I would package McCarthy, Anderson, and 3B prospect Josh Fields and see if I could convince the Marlins to trade away Miguel Cabrera. Trading McCarthy for a 2-month rental (i.e. Soriano) would not be a great move. Trading McCarthy as part of a deal that nets one of the top young position players in baseball (making only $400K this year and under your control for at least 2 more years), would basically be kicking the rest of the league in the family jewels.

 

Forget Soriano, I would vomit if the ChiSox got Cabrera.

[Flames24Rulz]

If I were KW, I would package McCarthy, Anderson, and 3B prospect Josh Fields and see if I could convince the Marlins to trade away Miguel Cabrera. Trading McCarthy for a 2-month rental (i.e. Soriano) would not be a great move. Trading McCarthy as part of a deal that nets one of the top young position players in baseball (making only $400K this year and under your control for at least 2 more years), would basically be kicking the rest of the league in the family jewels.

 

Forget Soriano, I would vomit if the ChiSox got Cabrera.

 

I heard the Marlins were against trading anyone because they believe they actually have a shot at the Wild Card. The drones on BBTN said that they aren't even considering trading JoBo anymore.

[NorthsideAvenger]

If I were KW, I would package McCarthy, Anderson, and 3B prospect Josh Fields and see if I could convince the Marlins to trade away Miguel Cabrera. Trading McCarthy for a 2-month rental (i.e. Soriano) would not be a great move. Trading McCarthy as part of a deal that nets one of the top young position players in baseball (making only $400K this year and under your control for at least 2 more years), would basically be kicking the rest of the league in the family jewels.

 

Forget Soriano, I would vomit if the ChiSox got Cabrera.

 

My guess is...it wouldn't be a "rental." Williams would try and re-sign him in the offseason, especially if he has to give up Brandon McCarthy, Josh Fields, and/or Jerry OWens.

[NorthsideAvenger]

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-060724rogers,1,4562475.column?coll=cs-home-utility

 

The OH-SO-GREAT Phil Rogers is now reporting the deal is Scott Podsenick and prospects (better be the White Sox Top 5 PROSPECTS in the org) for Soriano.

 

I can't see Washington wanting Podsenick (when they have Ryan Church who is BETTER then Podsenick) in the deal. This sounds like wishful thinking. But right now, I don't think ChiSox has THAT much interests in Soriano, per se, I think they are trying to put pressure on an AL rival to overpay for Soriano.

[Derwood]

World Series, bottom of the 9th, game on the line. Who would you rather see up to bat for your team: Soriano or Walker? I don't think you'd be considering salary at that point

[soapy]

World Series, bottom of the 9th, game on the line. Who would you rather see up to bat for your team: Soriano or Walker? I don't think you'd be considering salary at that point

True, but I think in 2004 and 2005 that would be a much more difficult question to answer. Nobody is denying that Soriano's production dwarfs Walker's this year.

[Backtobanks]

I'm really generalizing here, and I apologize for that ahead of time, but when there were rumors of the Cubs being interested in Soriano last year, many here hated it and said it was a typical Jim Hendry move for a tools guy with terrible plate discipline, etc.

 

Now the Sox are maybe getting him (and I like the move for them if they do), and many are saying how stupid the Cubs are for not doing something like this.

 

It seems like many of us want it both ways. We want to complain when the Cubs are rumored to like someone and say how stupid they are for doing so, then complain when some other teams gets the exact same guy and say the Cubs are stupid for not getting him.

 

Well said! It is fun discussing some of these rumors, but I've seen pages and pages criticizing the Cubs for thinking about Craig Wilson, Carl Crawford, Abreu, Soriano, etc. for a variety of statistical reasons. Meanwhile, back at the ballpark, the Cubs are on their way to losing 100 games. Hendry is an idiot for wanting Soriano and Kenny Williams is a genius for getting him.

 

You've seen pages and pages of criticizing the Cubs for thinking about Craig Wilson or Abreu? I sure as hell haven't. I'm not even sure there are pages criticizing them for thinking about Soriano. It's not the type of move I'd like to see them make, but I'm not adamently opposed to it either. I've seen Crawford brought up on occasion, usually in the positive.

 

While the Cubs are struggling, Cub fans are going to criticize or attack any move or rumor that involves Hendry. If the Cubs acquired ARod or Miggy, people would complain that they're over the hill, cost too much in salary, and the Cubs gave up too much for them (Pie, Hill, Cedeno, etc.). I've written more than a few times that while the posters are finding fault with every rumored trade, the Cubs are going to lose 100 games this season. I like Walker, but for goodness sake, there's a thread going on now comparing Walker (favorably) to Soriano (and that's without the salary). Sometimes stat geeks need to take their noses out of a book and watch some baseball.

[Pickle]

While the Cubs are struggling, Cub fans are going to criticize or attack any move or rumor that involves Hendry. If the Cubs acquired ARod or Miggy, people would complain that they're over the hill, cost too much in salary, and the Cubs gave up too much for them (Pie, Hill, Cedeno, etc.). I've written more than a few times that while the posters are finding fault with every rumored trade, the Cubs are going to lose 100 games this season. I like Walker, but for goodness sake, there's a thread going on now comparing Walker (favorably) to Soriano (and that's without the salary). Sometimes stat geeks need to take their noses out of a book and watch some baseball.

 

You just made some people very unhappy--angry, even. It's gonna get ugly, but stay strong. You have supporters.

[soapy]

While the Cubs are struggling, Cub fans are going to criticize or attack any move or rumor that involves Hendry. If the Cubs acquired ARod or Miggy, people would complain that they're over the hill, cost too much in salary, and the Cubs gave up too much for them (Pie, Hill, Cedeno, etc.). I've written more than a few times that while the posters are finding fault with every rumored trade, the Cubs are going to lose 100 games this season. I like Walker, but for goodness sake, there's a thread going on now comparing Walker (favorably) to Soriano (and that's without the salary). Sometimes stat geeks need to take their noses out of a book and watch some baseball.

 

You just made some people very unhappy--angry, even. It's gonna get ugly, but stay strong. You have supporters.

 

Why do people always insist that others shoud "watch some baseball" when they disagree?

 

God, that pisses me off like none other.

 

Whatever. Go ahead and believe anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot stat geek who just stares at random numbers all day.

 

Edited to ask: Who is comparing Walker to Soriano favorable now? I've not seen that at all. I've seen people explain why they were against a Soriano trade last season because AT THE TIME (i.e. 2004 & 2005) Walker and Soriano had very similar overall production with Walker making significantly less.

[illiniredbird]

World Series, bottom of the 9th, game on the line. Who would you rather see up to bat for your team: Soriano or Walker? I don't think you'd be considering salary at that point

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your absolutely right. I think someone hit the nail on the head when they said that if you had a team full of guys with great OBP, then Walker would not even be in the same breath with Soriano. But the Cubs don't have that so having Soriano would not make them any better than having Walker. That said the Cubs are along way from the World Series. If I were a Cub fan Im not sure I would want Soriano over Walker either if you compared salary.

 

 

P.S. I think earlier in this thread someone compared Murton and Cedeno to Albert Belle and Manny Ramirez. That person should be immediately drug tested.

[illiniguy]

World Series, bottom of the 9th, game on the line. Who would you rather see up to bat for your team: Soriano or Walker? I don't think you'd be considering salary at that point

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your absolutely right. I think someone hit the nail on the head when they said that if you had a team full of guys with great OBP, then Walker would not even be in the same breath with Soriano. But the Cubs don't have that so having Soriano would not make them any better than having Walker. That said the Cubs are along way from the World Series. If I were a Cub fan Im not sure I would want Soriano over Walker either if you compared salary.

 

 

P.S. I think earlier in this thread someone compared Murton and Cedeno to Albert Belle and Manny Ramirez. That person should be immediately drug tested.

 

 

Soriano, this year has played like he should. Soriano has a baseball card full of years where he was good in ESPN stats, but lacking in other parts that make him value added. That said I would much rather have him on this cubs because he can handle the heat and thus dusty would play him everyday.

Oh and Matt Murton is was better than Joey Belle.

[Flames24Rulz]

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-060724rogers,1,4562475.column?coll=cs-home-utility

 

The OH-SO-GREAT Phil Rogers is now reporting the deal is Scott Podsenick and prospects (better be the White Sox Top 5 PROSPECTS in the org) for Soriano.

 

I can't see Washington wanting Podsenick (when they have Ryan Church who is BETTER then Podsenick) in the deal. This sounds like wishful thinking. But right now, I don't think ChiSox has THAT much interests in Soriano, per se, I think they are trying to put pressure on an AL rival to overpay for Soriano.

 

If the Sox main piece towards getting Soriano is only having to give up Podsednik and not giving up McCarthy, I think that they would be ripping the Nationals off... big time.

[Pickle]

World Series, bottom of the 9th, game on the line. Who would you rather see up to bat for your team: Soriano or Walker? I don't think you'd be considering salary at that point

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your absolutely right. I think someone hit the nail on the head when they said that if you had a team full of guys with great OBP, then Walker would not even be in the same breath with Soriano. But the Cubs don't have that so having Soriano would not make them any better than having Walker. That said the Cubs are along way from the World Series. If I were a Cub fan Im not sure I would want Soriano over Walker either if you compared salary.

 

 

P.S. I think earlier in this thread someone compared Murton and Cedeno to Albert Belle and Manny Ramirez. That person should be immediately drug tested.

 

 

Soriano, this year has played like he should. Soriano has a baseball card full of years where he was good in ESPN stats, but lacking in other parts that make him value added. That said I would much rather have him on this cubs because he can handle the heat and thus dusty would play him everyday.

Oh and Matt Murton is was better than Joey Belle.

 

That's a good one. Imagine how good Murton will be when he changes his first name to Jeremiah.

[Magnetic Curses]

While the Cubs are struggling, Cub fans are going to criticize or attack any move or rumor that involves Hendry. If the Cubs acquired ARod or Miggy, people would complain that they're over the hill, cost too much in salary, and the Cubs gave up too much for them (Pie, Hill, Cedeno, etc.). I've written more than a few times that while the posters are finding fault with every rumored trade, the Cubs are going to lose 100 games this season. I like Walker, but for goodness sake, there's a thread going on now comparing Walker (favorably) to Soriano (and that's without the salary). Sometimes stat geeks need to take their noses out of a book and watch some baseball.

 

You just made some people very unhappy--angry, even. It's gonna get ugly, but stay strong. You have supporters.

 

plenty of "stat geeks" (whatever that means) watch a ton of baseball-- probably much more than you do.

 

i'll bring up the old "Bull Durham" logic-- the difference between a .300 hitter and a .250 hitter is 1 hit per week. a person is either crazy or lying if they say that simply watching games is the answer to finding the difference between the 2.

 

this is just the tip of the iceberg, and it's really an illustration of a larger point. the game of baseball is largely hidden in stats, as the sample size of baseball is perfect for stat analysis. instead of relying on gut instinct, or watching one player have a good week and then deciding that he's a good player based on that, "stat geeks" (whatever that means) tend to look for real production numbers over an extended period of time.

[CubColtPacer]

While the Cubs are struggling, Cub fans are going to criticize or attack any move or rumor that involves Hendry. If the Cubs acquired ARod or Miggy, people would complain that they're over the hill, cost too much in salary, and the Cubs gave up too much for them (Pie, Hill, Cedeno, etc.). I've written more than a few times that while the posters are finding fault with every rumored trade, the Cubs are going to lose 100 games this season. I like Walker, but for goodness sake, there's a thread going on now comparing Walker (favorably) to Soriano (and that's without the salary). Sometimes stat geeks need to take their noses out of a book and watch some baseball.

 

You just made some people very unhappy--angry, even. It's gonna get ugly, but stay strong. You have supporters.

 

plenty of "stat geeks" (whatever that means) watch a ton of baseball-- probably much more than you do.

 

i'll bring up the old "Bull Durham" logic-- the difference between a .300 hitter and a .250 hitter is 1 hit per week. a person is either crazy or lying if they say that simply watching games is the answer to finding the difference between the 2.

 

this is just the tip of the iceberg, and it's really an illustration of a larger point. the game of baseball is largely hidden in stats, as the sample size of baseball is perfect for stat analysis. instead of relying on gut instinct, or watching one player have a good week and then deciding that he's a good player based on that, "stat geeks" (whatever that means) tend to look for real production numbers over an extended period of time.

 

I'll jump into this and ask a question. I certainly think that baseball more than any other sport can be accurately predicted by statistics. I think however that stats certainly only tell part of the story. My question is-do people who value stats a great deal, is there anything in baseball that cannot be measured well by stats that is still important? Or are all of these things that stats cannot measure just small bonuses or detriments?

[Magnetic Curses]

While the Cubs are struggling, Cub fans are going to criticize or attack any move or rumor that involves Hendry. If the Cubs acquired ARod or Miggy, people would complain that they're over the hill, cost too much in salary, and the Cubs gave up too much for them (Pie, Hill, Cedeno, etc.). I've written more than a few times that while the posters are finding fault with every rumored trade, the Cubs are going to lose 100 games this season. I like Walker, but for goodness sake, there's a thread going on now comparing Walker (favorably) to Soriano (and that's without the salary). Sometimes stat geeks need to take their noses out of a book and watch some baseball.

 

You just made some people very unhappy--angry, even. It's gonna get ugly, but stay strong. You have supporters.

 

plenty of "stat geeks" (whatever that means) watch a ton of baseball-- probably much more than you do.

 

i'll bring up the old "Bull Durham" logic-- the difference between a .300 hitter and a .250 hitter is 1 hit per week. a person is either crazy or lying if they say that simply watching games is the answer to finding the difference between the 2.

 

this is just the tip of the iceberg, and it's really an illustration of a larger point. the game of baseball is largely hidden in stats, as the sample size of baseball is perfect for stat analysis. instead of relying on gut instinct, or watching one player have a good week and then deciding that he's a good player based on that, "stat geeks" (whatever that means) tend to look for real production numbers over an extended period of time.

 

I'll jump into this and ask a question. I certainly think that baseball more than any other sport can be accurately predicted by statistics. I think however that stats certainly only tell part of the story. My question is-do people who value stats a great deal, is there anything in baseball that cannot be measured well by stats that is still important? Or are all of these things that stats cannot measure just small bonuses or detriments?

 

stats can measure how often a player hits line drives and gets on base. i think if you erased all other stats, that these would be sufficient to build a team around, regardless of situation.

 

sure, there are situational factors that can sometimes be measured and sometimes can't. but, you can also assume that all of the unmeasurable situations are generally equal over the course of a 162 game-season--and thusly are static for all teams.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I'll jump into this and ask a question. I certainly think that baseball more than any other sport can be accurately predicted by statistics. I think however that stats certainly only tell part of the story. My question is-do people who value stats a great deal, is there anything in baseball that cannot be measured well by stats that is still important? Or are all of these things that stats cannot measure just small bonuses or detriments?

 

I value stats as much as the next guy, and I also typically watch hundreds of games every year at all levels. I do not put a lot of stock in defensive metrics. Watching players and their reads, lines, quickness, etc all give a better idea of their value on defense. Outfield assists do not tell me how strong or accurate a player's arm is. Stolen bases do not always give an accurate representation of a players speed. Stats typically cannot show where corrections can be made to improve aspects of a players game. There are plenty more, I'm sure.