Is Sosa one of the top 5 Cubs ever?

[Banedon]

The Cubs don't think so...

 

And if he is, which of the 5 do you bump off the list?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The Cubs are wrong then.

 

I love Billy, but I'd probably bumb either him or Fergie off of the list.

 

You just can't ignore Sosa's on-field production.

[J.R.]

A terrible, predictable omission.

[daske17]

No matter what, Sosa deserves to be on that list. For the best part of the 90s, Sammy Sosa WAS the Cubs. He was the face of MLB in Latin American countries, he electrified the country with the home run race in 1998, and he was a powerhouse in the lineup for almost a decade.

 

Despite the questions surrounding his stats, and the bad taste he left in the Cubs' organization's mouth in 2003, to leave him off this list does a disservice to a generation of fans who identify Sosa with the Cubs, especially since four of the five players are from the 1969 team.

 

Of that group, the one person I would leave off is Fergie. While his W/L totals, innings pitched, ERA and almost all stats were better when he was with the Cubs, his career was split almost evenly between the Cubs (9 1/2 seasons) and Philadelphia, Texas and Boston (9 1/2 seasons total). If we're going for greatest Cub ever, is should be someone who was a part of the team for the longest period of time.

 

All that said, Ernie Banks is my vote. He was a great ambassador for the game, one of the leading black athletes of the era, had monster stats in a pitcher's era and is overall the best cheerleader the Cubs could hope for.

[ConstableRabbit]

He's #2 if not #1.

[Irishoshea21]

A few things...

 

This list is horribly stupid. Why are we ignoring Cubs that played before the 1950's?

 

And there's no way that Ron Santo is one of the 5 greatest Cubs of all time.

 

Sosa > Santo

[Andy]

Sosa is, at worst, #2. You could definitely make a case for Banks's 512 homers, a lot of which were in the second dead ball era, being superior to Sammy's total, but he tops everyone else. Ridiculous.

[ConstableRabbit]

A few things...

 

This list is horribly stupid. Why are we ignoring Cubs that played before the 1950's?

 

And there's no way that Ron Santo is one of the 5 greatest Cubs of all time.

 

Sosa > Santo

 

You're right:

 

Where's Anson? Three-Finger Brown>>Fergie

[fromthestretch]

A few things...

 

This list is horribly stupid. Why are we ignoring Cubs that played before the 1950's?

 

And there's no way that Ron Santo is one of the 5 greatest Cubs of all time.

 

Sosa > Santo

 

Most likely they know that Cubs prior to that probably aren't going to get many votes, simply because of the ages of the people that are going to vote. Most of the voters will have more of an emotional attachment to players they actually watched. Not saying that makes it right, but that's probably their line of thinking.

 

All that being said, leaving Sosa off the list was an incredibly stupid decision.

[goonys evil twin]

The sentimantality over Santo has gone insane. He should not be on that list. Besides Sosa, you have Hack Wilson and Cap Anson. Jenkins might be removable as well.

 

Looks like the mission for this list was to appeal to the baby boomer generation.

[rocket]

What a joke.

[ConstableRabbit]

1. Banks

2. Sosa

3. Anson

4. Brown

5. Williams

 

I left Wilson off because he only spent 6 seasons on the team and they weren't all amazing. Perhaps if he had a few more productive years (which I think he would have) I would have put him on.

[minnesotacubsfan]

1. Banks

2. Brown

3. Anson

4. Sosa

5. Williams

 

 

I am just a huge fan of Mordecai and the deadball era to forget the past like that

[TruffleShuffle]

The sentimantality over Santo has gone insane. He should not be on that list.

 

Bill James has Santo as the 6th greatest third baseman of all time. Sosa's ranking at RF is 19th greatest of all time right fielders through 2003, and it's pretty clear that what he did in 2004-2005 did not boost him much. His win shares per year are basically equal to Sosa, and his OPS+ is only 4 points lower than Sosa. When you consider that Santo played a premium defensive position, and played it at a Gold Glove level, while Sosa was no better than average in RF. It's really easy to argue that Santo was better than Sosa.

[ConstableRabbit]

The sentimantality over Santo has gone insane. He should not be on that list.

 

Bill James has Santo as the 6th greatest third baseman of all time. Sosa's ranking at RF is 19th greatest of all time right fielders through 2003, and it's pretty clear that what he did in 2004-2005 did not boost him much. His win shares per year are basically equal to Sosa, and his OPS+ is only 4 points lower than Sosa. When you consider that Santo played a premium defensive position, and played it at a Gold Glove level, while Sosa was no better than average in RF. It's really easy to argue that Santo was better than Sosa.

 

Is it unthinkable that outfielders might be so much better offensively than third basemen that maybe the 19th best RF is still better than the 6th best 3B?

[TruffleShuffle]

1. Banks

2. Brown

3. Sandberg

4. Santo

5. Williams

[minnesotacubsfan]

1. Banks

2. Brown

3. Sandberg

4. Santo

5. Williams

 

 

oo yes, I'ma idiot. I forgot Sandberg.

[TruffleShuffle]

The sentimantality over Santo has gone insane. He should not be on that list.

 

Bill James has Santo as the 6th greatest third baseman of all time. Sosa's ranking at RF is 19th greatest of all time right fielders through 2003, and it's pretty clear that what he did in 2004-2005 did not boost him much. His win shares per year are basically equal to Sosa, and his OPS+ is only 4 points lower than Sosa. When you consider that Santo played a premium defensive position, and played it at a Gold Glove level, while Sosa was no better than average in RF. It's really easy to argue that Santo was better than Sosa.

 

Is it unthinkable that outfielders might be so much better offensively than third basemen that maybe the 19th best RF is still better than the 6th best 3B?

 

Yes, because the stats I gave you above suggest that Santo was just as good offensively as Sosa. If you want to make a direct comparison between third basemen and right fielders, or right fielders and catchers, be my guest. I think it's much more fair to rate a player versus his peers - those who played his position.

[Rob]

Career WARP3 (Wins Above Replacement Player, adjusted for 162 games and league difficulty)

 

Anson - 162.9

Banks - 129.3

Jenkins - 121.5

Santo - 119.1

Williams - 116.7

Sandberg - 114.5

Hartnett - 109.9

Sosa - 103.6

Brown - 71.9

 

Turns out, Sosa actually isn't top 5. And Anson got screwed... badly.

 

And taking out those few seasons where some of the guys played in other cities isn't enough to put him over the top, either... though I imagine Jenkins would drop off the top 5.

[dalgreen]

Yes. And I'd leave Santo off the list. That doesn't mean I don't value what he did, it simply means that there are five other Cubs who'd I rather have on my team than Santo. That's it - nothing more nothing less.

 

I'd take Sosa's 1997-2002 over Santo's best six seasons. In my opinon, had the Cubs not been stupid and traded Bill Madlock, I'm not certain that Santo would be getting all the love he does. I honestly think a lot of the love he gets is because he's still with the team and we had some not so good thirdbasemen for many years after him, not counting the cup of coffee Madlock had with the Cubs.

[TruffleShuffle]

I'd take Sosa's 1997-2002 over Santo's best six seasons.

 

So would I, but I'd take Santo's career as a Cub over Sosa's.

 

In my opinon, had the Cubs not been stupid and traded Bill Madlock, I'm not certain that Santo would be getting all the love he does. I honestly think a lot of the love he gets is because he's still with the team and we had some not so good thirdbasemen for many years after him, not counting the cup of coffee Madlock had with the Cubs.

 

Not true at all, at for my part. People don't understand the era during which Santo played, or his value at the position he manned.

[snoodmonger]

Anson's reputation is a big-time racist who played a huge role in baseball segregation might be part of what kept him off the list.

[TruffleShuffle]

Anson's reputation is a big-time racist who played a huge role in baseball segregation might be part of what kept him off the list.

 

Yeah, in his book, Bill James gives an award for the biggest a-hole for each decade of baseball -- the "Cap Anson Award." He was, by most accounts, a pretty terrible person.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Anson's reputation is a big-time racist who played a huge role in baseball segregation might be part of what kept him off the list.

 

Yeah, he pretty much created the need for the Negro Leagues.

[Rob]

Not true at all, at for my part. People don't understand the era during which Santo played, or his value at the position he manned.

 

Yup.

 

According to FRAA, Santo was worth 108 runs above average on defense during his career. Sosa was 11 above average at a less demanding position over the course of his career.