Francisco Liriano

[dougdescenzo]

Watching this man pitch too long will make your brain explode. I'm a young'n so the only person i can compare him to is Pedro. If he played in LA and had a weird delivery there'd be Franciscomania all over baseball. When i was younger my father told me there would never be a pitcher better than Sandy Koufax. Is it possible that my father was wrong and we are seeing two lefties better ON THE SAME TEAM?

 

Sidenote: Liriano was traded along with Boof Bonser and Joe Nathan for the human punching bag Pierzynski............Santana was drafted by the Marlins in the rule V and later traded to the Twins for Jared Camp. Baseball is a funny game.

[NorthsideAvenger]

Watching this man pitch too long will make your brain explode. I'm a young'n so the only person i can compare him to is Pedro. If he played in LA and had a weird delivery there'd be Franciscomania all over baseball. When i was younger my father told me there would never be a pitcher better than Sandy Koufax. Is it possible that my father was wrong and we are seeing two lefties better ON THE SAME TEAM?

 

Sidenote: Liriano was traded along with Boof Bonser and Joe Nathan for the human punching bag Pierzynski............Santana was drafted by the Marlins in the rule V and later traded to the Twins for Jared Camp. Baseball is a funny game.

 

Nobody WILL ever be better then Sandy Koufax, as much as I like Santana/Liriano, they prolly don't deserve to be mention in the same sentence. At least not right yet.

 

And we all know the history of how the Twins got Liriano and Santana, much to the dismay of the Astros (Santana original team) and the Giants.

 

Now the Astros, imagine if they had choose to hold onto Freddy Garcia, Bobby Abreu, Carlos Guillen, where would the Astros be with those guys?

 

Baseball is strange, sometimes.

[RockTheIvy]

He's similar to a pre-cocaine Doc Gooden.

[Warren Brusstar]

Nobody [is] better then Sandy Koufax

 

If by "nobody," you mean late-90s Pedro, then yes.

[TB_11]

Watching this man pitch too long will make your brain explode. I'm a young'n so the only person i can compare him to is Pedro. If he played in LA and had a weird delivery there'd be Franciscomania all over baseball. When i was younger my father told me there would never be a pitcher better than Sandy Koufax. Is it possible that my father was wrong and we are seeing two lefties better ON THE SAME TEAM?

 

Sidenote: Liriano was traded along with Boof Bonser and Joe Nathan for the human punching bag Pierzynski............Santana was drafted by the Marlins in the rule V and later traded to the Twins for Jared Camp. Baseball is a funny game.

 

He has been fantastic so far yes, but to put him in the same breath as Koufax or any other pitcher who has sustained an excellent level of performance over numerous seasons.

 

Aside from that, it's a shame that as of now the Twins are a long shot to make the playoffs. Having Santana/Liriano possibly going 4 times in a 5-game set, or 5 games in a 7-game set would be great to watch.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Nobody [is] better then Sandy Koufax

 

If by "nobody," you mean late-90s Pedro, then yes.

 

Agreed, Pedro put up some absolutely sick numbers -- 4 seasons with an ERA+ over 200 (including a 285), another at 195, and another at 189. Koufax hit 190 once. Koufax was good, Pedro was much better. And back to the original post, if Liriano can continue this performance over the course of a decade, then I would say "Sandy who?". He's got a long way to go, though.

[minnesotacubsfan]

I love watching the kid pitch. stupid lucky Twinkies...

[MattyJLCC]

I'm from Rochester NY where the Twins AAA team plays. I got to see him throw 4 times last year. The first time by chance, the other three times I was on the road driving home from work and heard on the radio that he was tossing so I came home, changed clothes, and told the wife I was headed to the ball park. He's just that good.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Watching this man pitch too long will make your brain explode. I'm a young'n so the only person i can compare him to is Pedro. If he played in LA and had a weird delivery there'd be Franciscomania all over baseball. When i was younger my father told me there would never be a pitcher better than Sandy Koufax. Is it possible that my father was wrong and we are seeing two lefties better ON THE SAME TEAM?

 

Sidenote: Liriano was traded along with Boof Bonser and Joe Nathan for the human punching bag Pierzynski............Santana was drafted by the Marlins in the rule V and later traded to the Twins for Jared Camp. Baseball is a funny game.

 

Nobody WILL ever be better then Sandy Koufax, as much as I like Santana/Liriano, they prolly don't deserve to be mention in the same sentence. At least not right yet.

 

And we all know the history of how the Twins got Liriano and Santana, much to the dismay of the Astros (Santana original team) and the Giants.

 

Now the Astros, imagine if they had choose to hold onto Freddy Garcia, Bobby Abreu, Carlos Guillen, where would the Astros be with those guys?

 

Baseball is strange, sometimes.

 

How do you know nobody ever will be better than Koufax? Have you been to the future and come back?

[YearofDaCubs]

Man, what a combo having Liriano and Santana in the rotation.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Man, what a combo having Liriano and Santana in the rotation.

 

Remember saying that after 2003 regarding Zambrano, Prior, and Wood? I sure as hell did. :cry:

[Electron Blue]

Watching this man pitch too long will make your brain explode. I'm a young'n so the only person i can compare him to is Pedro. If he played in LA and had a weird delivery there'd be Franciscomania all over baseball. When i was younger my father told me there would never be a pitcher better than Sandy Koufax. Is it possible that my father was wrong and we are seeing two lefties better ON THE SAME TEAM?

 

Sidenote: Liriano was traded along with Boof Bonser and Joe Nathan for the human punching bag Pierzynski............Santana was drafted by the Marlins in the rule V and later traded to the Twins for Jared Camp. Baseball is a funny game.

 

Nobody WILL ever be better then Sandy Koufax, as much as I like Santana/Liriano, they prolly don't deserve to be mention in the same sentence. At least not right yet.

 

And we all know the history of how the Twins got Liriano and Santana, much to the dismay of the Astros (Santana original team) and the Giants.

 

Now the Astros, imagine if they had choose to hold onto Freddy Garcia, Bobby Abreu, Carlos Guillen, where would the Astros be with those guys?

 

Baseball is strange, sometimes.

 

'Course if we're playing What If, the Astros never get Jeff Bagwell, a huge part of any success they've had the last fifteen years. They got the better of that steal.

[Electron Blue]

Watching this man pitch too long will make your brain explode. I'm a young'n so the only person i can compare him to is Pedro. If he played in LA and had a weird delivery there'd be Franciscomania all over baseball. When i was younger my father told me there would never be a pitcher better than Sandy Koufax. Is it possible that my father was wrong and we are seeing two lefties better ON THE SAME TEAM?

 

Sidenote: Liriano was traded along with Boof Bonser and Joe Nathan for the human punching bag Pierzynski............Santana was drafted by the Marlins in the rule V and later traded to the Twins for Jared Camp. Baseball is a funny game.

 

Nobody WILL ever be better then Sandy Koufax, as much as I like Santana/Liriano, they prolly don't deserve to be mention in the same sentence. At least not right yet.

 

And we all know the history of how the Twins got Liriano and Santana, much to the dismay of the Astros (Santana original team) and the Giants.

 

Now the Astros, imagine if they had choose to hold onto Freddy Garcia, Bobby Abreu, Carlos Guillen, where would the Astros be with those guys?

 

Baseball is strange, sometimes.

 

How do you know nobody ever will be better than Koufax? Have you been to the future and come back?

 

Nobody will have win more games than Cy Young. I don't need a time machine to bet all my money on that. The game changes and evolves in a way that make guarentees like these fairly believable.

[badger1679666666]

Bonzer, Nathan, and Liriano for Pieralphabet.....

 

How stupid are the Giants?

[YearofDaCubs]

Man, what a combo having Liriano and Santana in the rotation.

 

Remember saying that after 2003 regarding Zambrano, Prior, and Wood? I sure as hell did. :cry:

I do remember and it hurts.

[rocket]

There's a good chance Sandy Koufax is overrated. If you enjoy ERA+ as a stat for pitchers, then Sandy Koufax is the 31st best pitcher of all time.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/ERAplus_career.shtml

[Nobody youd want to know]

There's a good chance Sandy Koufax is overrated. If you enjoy ERA+ as a stat for pitchers, then Sandy Koufax is the 31st best pitcher of all time.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/ERAplus_career.shtml

 

I do indeed enjoy ERA+ as a stat... as does Dan Quisenberry:

 

Rank  Player (age)	Adjusted ERA+	Throws
1.	Pedro Martinez (33)      166        R
2.	Lefty Grove+*            148        L
3.	Walter Johnson+          146        R
	 Dan Quisenberry          146        R
	 Hoyt Wilhelm+            146        R
	 Joe Wood                 146        R

 

Fourth best all-time??

[rocket]

There's a good chance Sandy Koufax is overrated. If you enjoy ERA+ as a stat for pitchers, then Sandy Koufax is the 31st best pitcher of all time.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/ERAplus_career.shtml

 

I do indeed enjoy ERA+ as a stat... as does Dan Quisenberry:

 

Rank  Player (age)	Adjusted ERA+	Throws
1.	Pedro Martinez (33)      166        R
2.	Lefty Grove+*            148        L
3.	Walter Johnson+          146        R
	 Dan Quisenberry          146        R
	 Hoyt Wilhelm+            146        R
	 Joe Wood                 146        R

 

Fourth best all-time??

 

I wouldn't say that because he was a reliever. But perhaps a case could be made that he's the best reliever of all time.

[dougdescenzo]

I wouldn't say that because he was a reliever. But perhaps a case could be made that he's the best reliever of all time.

 

After checking out Quiz's numbers I realized he had one of the greatest 5 year stretches for a reliever of all time from '80-'85. Quiz went 12-7 in 1980 as a reliever without even starting a single game. I wonder where that ranks on the all time list of decisions without a start. He was also unhittable on RBI Baseball.

[Derwood]

Watching this man pitch too long will make your brain explode. I'm a young'n so the only person i can compare him to is Pedro. If he played in LA and had a weird delivery there'd be Franciscomania all over baseball. When i was younger my father told me there would never be a pitcher better than Sandy Koufax. Is it possible that my father was wrong and we are seeing two lefties better ON THE SAME TEAM?

 

Sidenote: Liriano was traded along with Boof Bonser and Joe Nathan for the human punching bag Pierzynski............Santana was drafted by the Marlins in the rule V and later traded to the Twins for Jared Camp. Baseball is a funny game.

 

Nobody WILL ever be better then Sandy Koufax, as much as I like Santana/Liriano, they prolly don't deserve to be mention in the same sentence. At least not right yet.

 

And we all know the history of how the Twins got Liriano and Santana, much to the dismay of the Astros (Santana original team) and the Giants.

 

Now the Astros, imagine if they had choose to hold onto Freddy Garcia, Bobby Abreu, Carlos Guillen, where would the Astros be with those guys?

 

Baseball is strange, sometimes.

 

How do you know nobody ever will be better than Koufax? Have you been to the future and come back?

 

Nobody will have win more games than Cy Young. I don't need a time machine to bet all my money on that. The game changes and evolves in a way that make guarentees like these fairly believable.

 

well, unless they move the mound back to around 50 feet away, raise it 3 feet of the ground and pitch starters every day, then no, no one will get as many wins as Cy Young.

[Fred Hornkohl]

I wouldn't say that because he was a reliever. But perhaps a case could be made that he's the best reliever of all time.

 

After checking out Quiz's numbers I realized he had one of the greatest 5 year stretches for a reliever of all time from '80-'85. Quiz went 12-7 in 1980 as a reliever without even starting a single game. I wonder where that ranks on the all time list of decisions without a start. He was also unhittable on RBI Baseball.

 

Elroy Face, Pittsburgh, 1959 went 18-1 without starting a game.

[NorthsideAvenger]

Nobody [is] better then Sandy Koufax

 

If by "nobody," you mean late-90s Pedro, then yes.

 

If you INCLUDE righties, in the discussion, then yeah, I would say Pedro was as good as Koufax (Pedro's better comparasion would be to Bob Gibson, mind you.. But I was assuming from the guy who started this thread, when he was trying to compare Liriano/Santana to Koufax, that were talking about LEFTIES as a whole.

 

Now if you open the debate, then I agree that Pedro was in the same class as Koufax, as is Gibson/Clemens/Maddux/Youny/Matthewson/Big Train/ and th elist goes on.

[stitchface]

Nobody [is] better then Sandy Koufax

 

If by "nobody," you mean late-90s Pedro, then yes.

 

If you INCLUDE righties, in the discussion, then yeah, I would say Pedro was as good as Koufax (Pedro's better comparasion would be to Bob Gibson, mind you.. But I was assuming from the guy who started this thread, when he was trying to compare Liriano/Santana to Koufax, that were talking about LEFTIES as a whole.

 

Now if you open the debate, then I agree that Pedro was in the same class as Koufax, as is Gibson/Clemens/Maddux/Youny/Matthewson/Big Train/ and th elist goes on.

 

Frankly, when healthy, Pedro was in a class by himself. Had he been able to pitch 220 innings a year consistently, he would be the greatest pitcher ever, in my opinion.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Nobody [is] better then Sandy Koufax

 

If by "nobody," you mean late-90s Pedro, then yes.

 

Or Roger Clemens over his whole career.

 

Randy Johnson.

 

Greg Maddux.

 

Seaver. Grove. W. Johnson.

 

Sandy Koufax is soo overrated. The guys peak doesn't even come close to the peak of Pedro Martinez, and his career can't touch any of the above guys.

 

He pwned in the 60's, but so did alot of pitchers. He also had to advantage of Dodger Stadium with a raised mound and a huge strike zone. Lots of guys succeeded. He was good, very good, but hugely overrated nowadays.

[Outshined_One]

Bonzer, Nathan, and Liriano for Pieralphabet.....

 

How stupid are the Giants?

 

Liriano was least highly rated of the three at the time of that trade, oddly enough.