Angel Pagan

[RegulusBlue]

Of your 89 posts, how many reference Matt Murton? Just curious.

 

Around 84 of them, why do you ask?

 

Murton was losing his time to Bynum. Pagan's presence has little to do with Murton's fate.

 

Pagan wasn't a factor in those days. Now, with Bynum gone, Nevin and Pagan will take all of the time. I point to the fact that Jones was brought in and Pagan took Murton's spot at left today, after a 2 for 4 day with 3 runs and an RBI.

 

Murton's fate is very tied to Pagan because you can't sit Jacque, dude.

[RonnieWooWooSanto]

Of your 89 posts, how many reference Matt Murton? Just curious.

 

Around 84 of them, why do you ask?

 

Just thought I saw a pattern. :D

[CubinNY]

 

.282 for a career average in the minors is pretty bad.

No, it's actually not. The league average for the AA and AAA leagues ranges from .247 to .269. So again, it's wrong to say that Pagan can't hit.

 

About how many prospects hit .250/.260 for their minor league career and make it to the bigs?

 

To move up you need to be way above average and .282 isn't that, especially with his OBP and SLG numbers.

 

If he's so good, why did the Cubs get purchase him for $10,000?

 

This isn't MLB numbers we're talking about. Pagan has had limited experience in the bigs.

 

His minor league numbers say he's not that good. Maybe he'll be one of the few who break the trend and make it, but I wouldn't put any money on it.

[Laura]

 

Pagan wasn't a factor in those days. Now, with Bynum gone, Nevin and Pagan will take all of the time. I point to the fact that Jones was brought in and Pagan took Murton's spot at left today, after a 2 for 4 day with 3 runs and an RBI.

 

Murton's fate is very tied to Pagan because you can't sit Jacque, dude.

 

Murton's fate is very tied to anyone with a pulse on the roster who could conceivably play LF.

 

Might not be fair, but that's the deal right now.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Murton was losing his time to Bynum. Pagan's presence has little to do with Murton's fate.

 

Murton's fate is very tied to anyone with a pulse on the roster who could conceivably play LF.

 

I'm confused.

[CubinNY]

 

Pagan wasn't a factor in those days. Now, with Bynum gone, Nevin and Pagan will take all of the time. I point to the fact that Jones was brought in and Pagan took Murton's spot at left today, after a 2 for 4 day with 3 runs and an RBI.

 

Murton's fate is very tied to Pagan because you can't sit Jacque, dude.

 

Murton's fate is very tied to anyone with a pulse on the roster who could conceivably play LF.

 

Might not be fair, but that's the deal right now.

 

Murton's problem is baseball philosophy. Not his, but those who currently run baseball teams. He is (or was) a patient line drive hitter capeable of a great BA and OBP but not a lot of SLG. But he plays a corner outfiled position where he's supposed to be a power hitter. He doesn't fit Dusty/Hendry's mold.

 

Imagine if Mark Grace came up today. That's Murton.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Imagine if Mark Grace came up today. That's Murton.

 

I know people like to make that comparison since Grace was a good OBP guy who didn't hit for a lot of power, but his minor league OPS was about 100 points higher than Murton, and his IsoP was around 40 points higher.

[Tracer Bullet]

 

Pagan wasn't a factor in those days. Now, with Bynum gone, Nevin and Pagan will take all of the time. I point to the fact that Jones was brought in and Pagan took Murton's spot at left today, after a 2 for 4 day with 3 runs and an RBI.

 

Murton's fate is very tied to Pagan because you can't sit Jacque, dude.

 

Murton's fate is very tied to anyone with a pulse on the roster who could conceivably play LF.

 

Might not be fair, but that's the deal right now.

 

Murton's problem is baseball philosophy. Not his, but those who currently run baseball teams. He is (or was) a patient line drive hitter capeable of a great BA and OBP but not a lot of SLG. But he plays a corner outfiled position where he's supposed to be a power hitter. He doesn't fit Dusty/Hendry's mold.

 

Imagine if Mark Grace came up today. That's Murton.

 

I agree w/ most of that - but he seems to be quite a bit faster than Grace. I think Matt would make a great #2 hitter - good average & OBP, decent speed, but not a ton of power.

[Mizzou]

 

.282 for a career average in the minors is pretty bad.

No, it's actually not. The league average for the AA and AAA leagues ranges from .247 to .269. So again, it's wrong to say that Pagan can't hit.

 

About how many prospects hit .250/.260 for their minor league career and make it to the bigs?

I have no idea... but what does that have to do with anything? We're talking about Pagan, who isn't a .260 hitter. He's a .282 career minor league hitter - which is good, whether you want to admit it or not.

 

If he's so good, why did the Cubs get purchase him for $10,000?

Good question. 25 man roster complications for the Mets, I would guess. And I'm not saying that he's "so good." I am saying that he can hit though. And that's all I have been saying in this thread. That's the only thing in Jon's post that I took issue with.

[CubinNY]

 

.282 for a career average in the minors is pretty bad.

No, it's actually not. The league average for the AA and AAA leagues ranges from .247 to .269. So again, it's wrong to say that Pagan can't hit.

 

About how many prospects hit .250/.260 for their minor league career and make it to the bigs?

I have no idea... but what does that have to do with anything? We're talking about Pagan, who isn't a .260 hitter. He's a .282 career minor league hitter - which is good, whether you want to admit it or not.

 

If he's so good, why did the Cubs get purchase him for $10,000?

Good question. 25 man roster complications for the Mets, I would guess. And I'm not saying that he's "so good." I am saying that he can hit though. And that's all I have been saying in this thread. That's the only thing in Jon's post that I took issue with.

 

You are comparing Pagan to a bunch of guys that never make it to the majors and proclaiming that his numbers are good.

 

Here's an analgoy

 

compared to an 80 year old I am a pretty fast runner.

 

Hitting .282 for a 5 or 6 year career in the minors is bad. It's just slightly above terrible, given his other offensive numbers. Using minor league averages as a bench mark for a prospect is not valid.

[Jon]

He's basically been only tools in his career. He's hasn't been much of a hitter, he's fast but doesn't steal bases well, and he should be hitting for more power than he has. Hendry also picked up other pretty similar players in Bynum and Miguel Negron (who spent five full years in the minors before reaching AA and has a career .680 OPS coming into this season) for the 40-man roster this year when there were already better players in the system. And he'll just be taking playing time from guys like Murton who actually have a sizeable upside.

 

Pagan was picked up first of that trio and actually played well during spring training. The fact that there are about 8 25th men on the Cubs roster doesn't mean that Pagan can't be a useful 4/5 outfielder.

 

Murton was losing his time to Bynum. Pagan's presence has little to do with Murton's fate.

He'll get his time in the outfield. And between he, Nevin, and Bynum when he returns, Murton will see fewer ABs. I've seen conflicting reports on his overall defense (and have seen it in the field in his limited time), but he's not a better option that someone like Restovich, who has been tearing it up at AAA, especially against lefties. But he's also not a great base stealer, which is one of the things they seem to like about him, and also strikes out over twice as often as he walks while averaging over 100 Ks the past couple of seasons.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

 

.282 for a career average in the minors is pretty bad.

No, it's actually not. The league average for the AA and AAA leagues ranges from .247 to .269. So again, it's wrong to say that Pagan can't hit.

 

About how many prospects hit .250/.260 for their minor league career and make it to the bigs?

I have no idea... but what does that have to do with anything? We're talking about Pagan, who isn't a .260 hitter. He's a .282 career minor league hitter - which is good, whether you want to admit it or not.

 

If he's so good, why did the Cubs get purchase him for $10,000?

Good question. 25 man roster complications for the Mets, I would guess. And I'm not saying that he's "so good." I am saying that he can hit though. And that's all I have been saying in this thread. That's the only thing in Jon's post that I took issue with.

 

You are comparing Pagan to a bunch of guys that never make it to the majors and proclaiming that his numbers are good.

 

Here's an analgoy

 

compared to an 80 year old I am a pretty fast runner.

 

Hitting .282 for a 5 or 6 year career in the minors is bad. It's just slightly above terrible, given his other offensive numbers. Using minor league averages as a bench mark for a prospect is not valid.

 

Come on, hitting .282 is not bad, there are plenty of guys that make it and hit .280 in the minor leagues. However, that .280 isn't exactly a strength, in order to be a guy who's going to "hit for average" as a major leaguer, you need to do better than .280.

 

As it pertains to Pagan, he does not get on base or hit for any power, and since he doesn't hit for enough average for that to be a particular strength, you have a pretty crummy offensive player.

[CubinNY]

 

.282 for a career average in the minors is pretty bad.

No, it's actually not. The league average for the AA and AAA leagues ranges from .247 to .269. So again, it's wrong to say that Pagan can't hit.

 

About how many prospects hit .250/.260 for their minor league career and make it to the bigs?

I have no idea... but what does that have to do with anything? We're talking about Pagan, who isn't a .260 hitter. He's a .282 career minor league hitter - which is good, whether you want to admit it or not.

 

If he's so good, why did the Cubs get purchase him for $10,000?

Good question. 25 man roster complications for the Mets, I would guess. And I'm not saying that he's "so good." I am saying that he can hit though. And that's all I have been saying in this thread. That's the only thing in Jon's post that I took issue with.

 

You are comparing Pagan to a bunch of guys that never make it to the majors and proclaiming that his numbers are good.

 

Here's an analgoy

 

compared to an 80 year old I am a pretty fast runner.

 

Hitting .282 for a 5 or 6 year career in the minors is bad. It's just slightly above terrible, given his other offensive numbers. Using minor league averages as a bench mark for a prospect is not valid.

 

Come on, hitting .282 is not bad, there are plenty of guys that make it and hit .280 in the minor leagues. However, that .280 isn't exactly a strength, in order to be a guy who's going to "hit for average" as a major leaguer, you need to do better than .280.

 

As it pertains to Pagan, he does not get on base or hit for any power, and since he doesn't hit for enough average for that to be a particular strength, you have a pretty crummy offensive player.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I saw that. Hitting .280 as a minor leaguer is not a negative(or bad or slightly above terrible), it's just not a positive.

[Mizzou]

Hitting .282 for a 5 or 6 year career in the minors is bad. It's just slightly above terrible, given his other offensive numbers. Using minor league averages as a bench mark for a prospect is not valid.

No, it's not bad. And I just showed you that it's not bad. And it's hardly slightly above terrible, or any other ridiculous hyperbole you'd like to use. Get over your dislike of him for two seconds and acknowledge the FACT that his batting average is good.

 

And as for your last statement, how else would you like to evaluate minor leaguers if you don't want to look at their stats relative to their competition?

[CubinNY]

Hitting .282 for a 5 or 6 year career in the minors is bad. It's just slightly above terrible, given his other offensive numbers. Using minor league averages as a bench mark for a prospect is not valid.

No, it's not bad. And I just showed you that it's not bad. And it's hardly slightly above terrible, or any other ridiculous hyperbole you'd like to use. Get over your dislike of him for two seconds and acknowledge the FACT that his batting average is good.

 

And as for your last statement, how else would you like to evaluate minor leaguers if you don't want to look at their stats relative to their competition?

 

You compare a player's numbers to the best numbers of players playing his position in the minors. Then you look to see if the person is old or young for his league. Compaing a player to league averages is ok for a major leaguer but the vast majority of minor leaguers never make it. Why compare a player to a guy who isn't good enough to move up a league? His batting average would be good if he also had an OPS of .950 or an OBP of .390 for his career, but alas his doesn't.

 

I don't hate Pagen. I have nothing against him.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

And as for your last statement, how else would you like to evaluate minor leaguers if you don't want to look at their stats relative to their competition?

 

That's not a good way (at the very least, it's a very incomplete way) to evaluate a minor leaguer.

[Mizzou]

Hitting .282 for a 5 or 6 year career in the minors is bad. It's just slightly above terrible, given his other offensive numbers. Using minor league averages as a bench mark for a prospect is not valid.

No, it's not bad. And I just showed you that it's not bad. And it's hardly slightly above terrible, or any other ridiculous hyperbole you'd like to use. Get over your dislike of him for two seconds and acknowledge the FACT that his batting average is good.

 

And as for your last statement, how else would you like to evaluate minor leaguers if you don't want to look at their stats relative to their competition?

 

You compare a player's numbers to the best numbers of players playing his position in the minors. Then you look to see if the person is old or young for his league. Compaing a player to league averages is ok for a major leaguer but the vast majority of minor leaguers never make it. Why compare a player to a guy who isn't good enough to move up a league? His batting average would be good if he also had an OPS of .950 or an OBP of .390 for his career, but alas his doesn't.

 

I don't hate Pagen. I have nothing against him.

A .282 batting average is good, regardless of whether his OBP is .290 or .390. Adam Dunn has a great OBP, but that doesn't make his average good. Nor does Pagan's modest OBP make his batting average bad.

[imb]

Pagan was a bad hitter in the minor leagues. His average was decent, but a lot more goes into judging a hitter than just batting average. A weak OBP and terrible SLP ruin whatever good his decent batting average accomplished.

[Soul]

He seems like a typical Hendry guy to me. Has some tools, so when he looks good he really looks good. But the baseball skills aren't all that great, and Hendry is just hoping he somehow figures it out on his own because there's nobody in the organization who can teach it to him.

 

This has been Hendry's philosophy all along when it comes to position talent. Grab toolsy guys and then just pray for a miracle.

[wastra]

.282 isn't BAD for a minor leaguer, but it's really pedestrian for an actual PROSPECT, especially when it's not paired with a great OBP or SLG.