*715

[BigSlick]

Runs Created Above Average for players from 1980 to 2004 (can't get 2005 to work on my sabermetric encyclopedia -- need to fix that):

 

1 *Barry Bonds 1496

2 Frank Thomas 796

3 Rickey Henderson 762

4 Jeff Bagwell 680

5 *Mark McGwire 665

6 Edgar Martinez 647

7 Gary Sheffield 605

8 Manny Ramirez 573

9 Jim Thome 571

10 *Rafael Palmeiro 564

 

Babe's the best, and Aaron's one of my favorites, but Bonds has indeed been dominant.

 

I've put a * next to the guys I think were juiced. Do we know the other guys weren't?

 

I'd also submit that if all of Bonds' production is really attributable to roids rather than talent, we should still give the man his props for scoring some damn sweet stuff.

 

The irony here is that much of his Runs Created comes from the fact that people are so afraid of pitching to him that they walk him so damn much.

 

All the walks hurt more than the possibility of a home run.

[Jehrico]

Congratulations to Barry. And congratulations in advance when he passes Hank Aaron!

 

Arguably one of the best players of all time, no matter what anyone says.

 

Thank you!

 

If Bonds was on the Cubs, people on this site would have such a diffrent attitude on Barry. If you support Sosa especially, then how could you hate Bonds? Ludacris. Best hitter of our generation, people.

 

Big difference between Sosa and Bonds. First off, Sosa's not breaking any records. Second, and most importantly, Sosa is a suspected cheater, while Bonds is a known cheater. Bonds is heralded as the greatest hitter of our generation because of what he has done from 2001 and forward. That's going back to when he was 36. The 4 greatest offensive seasons of his career occured after he turned 36. He was outstanding before that, but nothing he did in his prime was ever considered Ruthian. It's been everything he did after he started juicing in 99 or 2000.

[Jehrico]

And Roger Maris still holds the single season homerun record in my book. All of the steroid freaks were great talents but a lot of those homeruns would have been routine flyballs without the steroids. Starting with Brady Anderson hitting 50 homeruns, Luis Gonzalez hitting 57, and through Bonds 73 the numbers are just suspect at best regarding homeruns. (Including the two time cheater Sammy Sosa - Corked bat and Steroids)

 

Isn't there speculation that Maris and his contemporaries were on amphetamines?

 

Players have been skirting the rules since the rules were made, I don't really see the point in getting so upset at Bonds, and I don't like him one bit.

So cheating is okay in your book?

[CubsBullsBears]

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Transmogrified Tiger]

And Roger Maris still holds the single season homerun record in my book. All of the steroid freaks were great talents but a lot of those homeruns would have been routine flyballs without the steroids. Starting with Brady Anderson hitting 50 homeruns, Luis Gonzalez hitting 57, and through Bonds 73 the numbers are just suspect at best regarding homeruns. (Including the two time cheater Sammy Sosa - Corked bat and Steroids)

 

Isn't there speculation that Maris and his contemporaries were on amphetamines?

 

Players have been skirting the rules since the rules were made, I don't really see the point in getting so upset at Bonds, and I don't like him one bit.

So cheating is okay in your book?

 

No, the point is that getting so upset at Bonds because he cheated to break records that were set by people who might have cheated themselves is a bit silly.

[scs_paradise]

Congratulations to Barry. And congratulations in advance when he passes Hank Aaron!

 

Arguably one of the best players of all time, no matter what anyone says.

 

Thank you!

 

If Bonds was on the Cubs, people on this site would have such a diffrent attitude on Barry. If you support Sosa especially, then how could you hate Bonds? Ludacris. Best hitter of our generation, people.

 

Big difference between Sosa and Bonds. First off, Sosa's not breaking any records. Second, and most importantly, Sosa is a suspected cheater, while Bonds is a known cheater. Bonds is heralded as the greatest hitter of our generation because of what he has done from 2001 and forward. That's going back to when he was 36. The 4 greatest offensive seasons of his career occured after he turned 36. He was outstanding before that, but nothing he did in his prime was ever considered Ruthian. It's been everything he did after he started juicing in 99 or 2000.

 

 

you need more than cork sprayed all over the infield to be convinced sammy was a cheater? you have your head in the sand as deep as the ones who defend barry as having never used if you really feel that way.

[CubsBullsBears]

Interesting NYT article

 

Heads turned. The ball bid the park adieu. With a single, violent swing of his bat, Barry Bonds made baseball history Saturday in Oakland, climbing one home run closer to the immortal Willie Mays. Six hundred sixteen home runs. It's a mind-numbing number, a body of work to rival Tupac's posthumous releases. Congratulations are in order.

 

Wait. Hold up.

 

You say Bonds actually has 714 career home runs?

 

Er, no. Good one. But no. Sure, if you want to get all technical, there's no arguing that Bonds has forcefully redirected 714 pitches into home run territory over his 21 major-league seasons. Yet according to the ziggurat of evidence compiled in the book "Game of Shadows," Bonds also ingested a Mexican farmacia's worth of performance-enhancing drugs during his peak slugging period, making some of those dingers less authentic than country crooner Kenny Rogers' reconstructed face.

 

Question is, how many? How many of Bonds' home runs are honest? And how many came courtesy of his reported juicing?

 

Start with a caveat: There's no way to know. At least not for sure. The homers themselves can't be replicated in a lab, let alone studied. The variables involved in each at-bat are too numerous and complex to tease out completely. The specific physical effects of taking bovine bulk builders and female sex hormones -- Bonds reportedly took both; did he end up lactating buttermilk? -- are poorly understood.

 

Truth be told, we can only manage a crude approximation. An educated guess, but a guess nonetheless.

 

On the other hand, that sure beats an unsightly asterisk.

 

So, how did Page 2 place Bonds' "legitimate" total at 616 homers? In taking away 98 home runs since 1999 -- when Bonds' allegedly began using steroids -- we sought to quantify the performance-enhancing effects of steroids in four hitting-related categories: strength, stamina, longevity and confidence. To do so, we spoke to a swing guru, a major league scout, training and biomechanics specialists, and an expert on the physics of baseball. We looked over hit charts and home run distances, tabulating every Bonds blast from '99 to now. We even got help from a nuclear scientist (albeit a nuclear scientist who really likes baseball).

 

We then did the math. Follow along ...

 

1. Strength

 

 

"I don't know if steroids are going to help you in baseball. I just don't believe it. I don't believe steroids can help eye-hand coordination [and] technically hit a baseball."

-- Barry Bonds, Jan. 22, 2005

 

Bonds is correct. Steroids alone won't help you hit a curveball. But coupled with skill and training, they will help you hit that same curveball farther. Here's how:

 

Steroids build size and strength. They allow longer, harder workouts and promote better physical gains than would otherwise be possible.

 

According to "Game of Shadows," Bonds began using performance-enhancing drugs and training with Greg Anderson following the 1998 season. The results were astounding. In 1997, a team media guide listed Bonds at 206 pounds. By spring training of 1999, he weighed 225, with authors Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams claiming:

 

 

"...almost all of the gain was rock-hard muscle ... the change in Bonds' physique was startling. Around the Giants, they took to referring to Bonds as The Incredible Hulk. When Bonds took batting practice, he was driving the ball farther than he ever had before."

 

 

In 2003, Muscle and Fitness magazine reported that Bonds, then about to turn 39, weighed 230 pounds and was in "the best shape of his life." Bonds himself told the magazine that his improvement as a player was due to "training and nutrition," making him "a better athlete than before."

 

An accompanying photo shows Bonds and Anderson sitting in front of BALCO ringleader Victor Conte, who has a hand on each man's meaty shoulders. All three are smiling. And why not? At an age when most top athletes have a hard time simply maintaining their chiseled physiques, Bonds had packed on 20-plus pounds of added bulk.

 

Extra size and strength equals extra bat speed. Robert Adair wrote the book on baseball physics. Literally. His "The Physics of Baseball" has enjoyed multiple editions and is considered the classic text in its field.

 

On page 139, Adair provides an equation relating bat speed (that is, the speed of the bat's sweet spot at the moment it makes contact with the ball) to player weight:

 

V = k sqrt(M/(m+M/81))

 

(Note: V is the velocity of the bat in miles per hour, m is the bat weight in pounds, M is the player's weight in pounds, sqrt means square root and k is a constant, 10, in mph. Phew!)

 

According to Adair's formula -- and don't worry, we asked him to double-check the calculations, since our last math class came in high school -- the 206-pound Bonds generates a bat speed of 67.34 mph, while the 228-pound Bonds swings the same 32-ounce bat at 68.81 mph, an increase of 1.48 mph.

 

Trust us: That's more impressive than it sounds.

 

Bat speed is the key to power hitting. Jack Mankin is an electrical engineer. He also is a youth baseball coach and something of a baseball swing junkie.

 

Way back in 1986, Mankin bought a VCR that featured frame-by-frame replay, a rare and exotic luxury at the time. He taped about 100 major league games, then set out to chart the swing mechanics that separated great hitters from average ones.

 

Mankin taped plastic strips to his television screen. He used a grease pencil to trace body movement. He plugged his findings into computer spreadsheets. He's still at it today.

 

Recently, Mankin looked over clips of Bonds, from 1988 and the present. Conclusion?

 

"There's absolutely no change," said Mankin, who runs a Web site devoted to bat speed. "The only difference is that back then, most of his home runs were just enough to clear a 360-foot fence. Now, he's up to 400-some with the same dang swing."

 

The same dang swing. Only faster. In an excellent 2005 San Diego Union-Tribune article detailing the effects of steroid use on power hitting, major league scouts claim Bonds' bat speed not only stopped declining but also increased during the time he worked with Anderson -- an observation consistent with Adair's weight-to-bat speed formula.

 

"I've seen [bonds'] bat speed improve," a longtime major league scout told Page 2. "But I can't say it's because of steroids."

 

How does extra bat speed help a hitter? Simple. While many factors influence the height and distance of a flyball, the most important variable is the speed of the bat at the instant it connects with a pitch.

 

Mont Hubbard, a mechanical and aeronautical engineering professor at the University of California-Davis, co-authored a 2003 American Journal of Physics article examining home run ball flight. An accompanying graph plots bat speed against flyball distance -- and like a rising homer, the curve sloped upward, almost in a straight line.

 

The faster the swing, the longer the long ball.

 

"We work with bat speed a lot, especially with a lot of the [major league] guys who come down here before spring training," said David Donatucci, director of the International Performance Institute at the IMG Academies in Bradenton, Fla. "If you're working [at] the skill [of hitting] and increasing in strength at the same time, you'll become a more powerful hitter."

 

Alan Nathan, a baseball physics buff and nuclear physics professor at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, estimates every one mph of extra bat speed translates into roughly six feet of added flyball flight distance. Back to Bonds. By bulking up and increasing his bat speed, he added about nine feet to his average flyball distance -- the difference between the warning track out and reaching the outfield seats.

 

Now for the fun part. Using statistics and a chart provided by STATS, Inc., Page 2 examined every home run hit by Bonds from 1999 to May 2 of this year, 301 in all.

 

The entry for each home run lists the ballpark where it was hit, the estimated distance it traveled and the approximate area where the ball cleared the field of play. Comparing each homer to the ballpark dimension diagrams found at andrewclem.com, we sought to answer a single question:

 

If you take away the extra nine feet of flyball distance Bonds generated by putting on 20 pounds of muscle, how many of his home runs fall short?

 

Here's how the answer breaks down:

 

• 1999: four home runs out of 34.

• 2000: nine out of 49.

• 2001: 18 out of 73.

• 2002: 11 out of 46.

• 2003: 10 out of 45.

• 2004: 13 out of 45.

• 2005: one out of five.

• 2006: zero out of five.

 

In total, Page 2 estimates that 66 Bonds home runs would have landed inside the fence sans his alleged steroids use. Again, this is an approximation. But is our guess wholly unreasonable?

 

According to Adair, a 1 percent change in flyball distance translates into a roughly 7 percent change in the probability of hitting a home run. Since Bonds enjoyed a 2.4 percent increase in flyball distance, he should have seen a 16 percent increase in home run production.

 

Our number -- 66 home runs -- represents about 22 percent of Bonds' home runs since 1999. The numbers are in the same ballpark. Emphasis on in.

 

2. Stamina

 

 

"Before, I would train really hard in the offseason and work out just a little bit during the season, trying mostly to keep my flexibility. Then I'd hit a wall in August. But the last few years I've been training all year, and that has changed my whole career, because I don't get weaker during the year. I don't suffer a down spell or hit bottom. I stay strong all year."

-- Bonds, in Muscle and Fitness magazine, 2003

 

Perhaps you've heard the term: The dog days of summer. Temperatures rise. Injuries nag. Fatigue sets in, mental and physical. The season seems endless. Older players feel the grind most acutely.

 

Some switch to lighter bats. Others skip batting practice. Anything to conserve precious energy.

 

Enter steroids. In "Juiced," Jose Canseco writes that performance-enhancing drugs kept him feeling fresh, as if the last day of the season was the first day of spring training. "Game of Shadows" reports that using human growth hormone helped Bonds retain his buffed-up body without rigorous training.

 

That August wall? Knocked down like the one in Berlin. Get pumped, stay pumped, with more pep to boot.

 

 

Without steroids, how much would Bonds have sagged in the stretch? We don't really know. But we can make another reasonable guess. Assume that instead of gaining 1.8 mph in bat speed, an aging Bonds would have lost that amount by the end of July.

 

Subtract nine more feet from Bonds' charted home runs from August through October, and here's how many die on the warning track:

 

• 1999: six home runs.

• 2000: three home runs.

• 2001: five home runs.

• 2002: zero home runs.

• 2003: one home run.

• 2004: one home run.

• 2005: one home run.

 

Add it up, and that's 17 more homers we're taking away from Bonds, bringing our running total to 83. Time to check our work.

 

3. Longevity

"I don't have to [use steroids]. I mean, I'm a good enough ballplayer as it is. I don't need to be any better. I can't get any better at this age."

-- Bonds, in an interview with Bob Costas, 2002

 

No kidding. At age 39 in 2004, Bonds hit a home run every 8.3 at bats -- the second-best rate of his career, and far superior to Babe Ruth (16.6), Willie Mays (17.1) and Ted Williams (15.8) at the same age.

 

Is Bonds simply a marvelous athlete, benefiting from advances in training and nutrition unavailable to the sluggers of yore? Perhaps. Or perhaps Bonds has access to better chemicals.

 

Testosterone levels decline with age. Typically, so does athletic performance. Recent research suggests that both testosterone and human growth hormone may have significant anti-aging effects.

 

Now consider: At ages 31-33, the top 10 home run hitters not named Barry Bonds (and not including contemporaries Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro and Ken Griffey Jr.) collectively averaged a dinger every 13.8 at-bats. From age 34 through 39, however, that average fell to one home run per 15.6 at bats, a drop-off of 1.8.

 

Similarly, Bonds at ages 31-33 averaged a home run every 13.5 at bats. But from age 34 onward -- when he allegedly started using performance-enhancing drugs -- Bonds has averaged one home run per 8.5 at bats, an unprecedented surge.

 

If "Game of Shadows" is correct, steroids helped Bonds throttle Father Time, becoming more powerful at an age when most players slip significantly. How many fewer home runs would he have hit had his production declined at the rate of his non-juiced peers?

 

 

Let's crunch the numbers:

 

• At 31-33, Bonds' home run rate is 13.5. He suffers a drop of 1.8, making his 34-39 rate 15.3;

• At 34-39, Bonds had 2,477 at-bats;

• Divide 2,477 by 15.3, and you get 162.

 

By the standards of his historic peers, Bonds should have have hit about 162 homers from age 34 through 39; in reality, he smacked 292. The difference: 130 home runs.

 

Are all of those bogus? Hard to say. Give Bonds the benefit of the doubt. Suppose, for argument's sake, he's as ageless as the man he's chasing, Hank Aaron.

 

At ages 34-39, Aaron enjoyed a rare rise in his home run rate, from 15.4 to 13.0 (explained, in part, by a move from Milwaukee's County Stadium to more homer-friendly Atlanta Fulton County Stadium). Assign the same moderate 2.4 boost to Bonds. Then divide his at-bats accordingly.

 

Bonds ends up with 223 homers, much closer to his real-life total of 292. And the difference between the two -- 69 fewer home runs -- is pretty close to the 83 we've already taken away.

 

Confidence

 

 

"There are some things I don't understand right now. The balls I used to line off the wall are lining out [of the park]. I can't tell you why. Call God. Ask Him."

-- Bonds, to the San Francisco Chronicle, 2001

 

So Bonds is stronger. More energetic. In goes the needle. Out go the long balls. His confidence surges.

 

Out go more long balls.

 

Feel good. Play better. Self-assurance is the great sports intangible, nearly as important as raw talent. Think you can do it? You're halfway there.

 

"Look, steroids make you better," says the major league scout, a former player himself. "But the other factor is confidence. You can't measure that. But there is a value there, and athletes all thrive on it. They need to know that they can perform."

 

Call God. Spoken like a man who knows he can perform. Bolstered by steroids, would a supremely self-assured Bonds swing for the fences more often? Seems likely. From 1987 to 1998, Bonds' average ground ball to flyball ratio was 0.81; between 1999 and last season, it was 0.62 -- an increase of about 19 extra flyballs for every 300 balls put into play. Maybe a pumped-up Bonds was trying harder to go deep. Maybe he belted additional home runs as a result.

 

More on confidence: "Game of Shadows" reports that performance enhancers improved Bonds' eyesight, helping him track pitches. Coincidence? Not necessarily. Extra bat speed means extra time to differentiate between a fastball and a slider.

 

Moreover, a 2002 University of California San Francisco study found that older men with higher testosterone levels performed better on cognition tests than men with lower levels. Two years later, Harvard researchers discovered that men with higher testosterone levels are quicker to solve spatial-relationship problems.

 

Really, what is spotting and crushing a major league fastball if not a spatial-relationship problem ... played out at warp speed?

 

"People talk about bat speed, but nobody talks about [bonds'] eyesight," said the major league scout. "He sees a pitch so quick, so early. He can see it and relay that information to his muscles faster than anyone else. That's what all good hitters do. They know what the ball is when it has been out of the pitcher's hand for just 10, 15 feet. Only special people do this."

 

How many home runs are quicker reactions and a juice-boosted feeling of invincibility worth? Could be five. Could be 25. Could be more, if fearful opposing pitchers lack confidence and fail to summon their best stuff.

 

What seems clear is this: Confidence helps, same as muscle. Let's say increased self-assurance allowed Bonds to belt 15 more home runs -- about three per season. That brings our grand total of tainted dingers to 98, a number that corresponds nicely with 1998 -- Bonds' last clean year, if "Game of Shadows" has it right. And even if the book is wrong, the photographs don't lie: Bonds today is a swollen sponge, a hulking parody of his lithe former self. Of course he bashed like never before. The laws of physics demand nothing less.

 

In his book, Adair states that if 140-pound Paul Waner uses a 32-ounce bat to hit a 90 mph fastball 338 feet, 225-pound Mark McGwire can use the same swing and same bat to drive the same pitch nearly 50 feet farther. Hello, andro!

 

"Bigger is better," Adair said in an e-mail interview. "But Waner was a damn good player."

 

Six hundred sixteen home runs. Our best guess. A long way from 715, but still an incredible number. Such is the shame in having to wonder: Without steroids, Bonds was a damn good player. With steroids, he's a good player damned.

[scs_paradise]

I might be wrong but I think its against the nsbb rules to reprint the entire article...something about copyright infringment...I think you have to link it....but I could be wrong.

[cubfan1955]

And Roger Maris still holds the single season homerun record in my book. All of the steroid freaks were great talents but a lot of those homeruns would have been routine flyballs without the steroids. Starting with Brady Anderson hitting 50 homeruns, Luis Gonzalez hitting 57, and through Bonds 73 the numbers are just suspect at best regarding homeruns. (Including the two time cheater Sammy Sosa - Corked bat and Steroids)

 

Isn't there speculation that Maris and his contemporaries were on amphetamines?

 

Players have been skirting the rules since the rules were made, I don't really see the point in getting so upset at Bonds, and I don't like him one bit.

Where did I say I was upset with Bonds? They guy I'm most upset with is Bud Selig for turning a blind eye to the problem.

 

And since when do amphetamines give you a boost in power. They make your more alert and hyper but don't give you more strength to turn flyballs into homeruns. I suppose if you want to take it to extremes you could argue somehow hotdogs and beer gave Ruth an unfair advantage.

[CubsBullsBears]

I might be wrong but I think its against the nsbb rules to reprint the entire article...something about copyright infringment...I think you have to link it....but I could be wrong.

Sorry. I found full-text on a forum. They left no link. Just delete it if it is against rules.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

And Roger Maris still holds the single season homerun record in my book. All of the steroid freaks were great talents but a lot of those homeruns would have been routine flyballs without the steroids. Starting with Brady Anderson hitting 50 homeruns, Luis Gonzalez hitting 57, and through Bonds 73 the numbers are just suspect at best regarding homeruns. (Including the two time cheater Sammy Sosa - Corked bat and Steroids)

 

Isn't there speculation that Maris and his contemporaries were on amphetamines?

 

Players have been skirting the rules since the rules were made, I don't really see the point in getting so upset at Bonds, and I don't like him one bit.

Where did I say I was upset with Bonds? They guy I'm most upset with is Bud Selig for turning a blind eye to the problem.

 

And since when do amphetamines give you a boost in power. They make your more alert and hyper but don't give you more strength to turn flyballs into homeruns. I suppose if you want to take it to extremes you could argue somehow hotdogs and beer gave Ruth an unfair advantage.

 

I wasn't replying specifically to you, more to the consensus that is so up in arms over Bonds.

 

To my knowlege, amphetamines help with stamina. They're an upper that helped people avoid the affects of fatigue, at least for the length of a game. Someone feel free to correct/add on if that's not right.

[BigSlick]

And Roger Maris still holds the single season homerun record in my book. All of the steroid freaks were great talents but a lot of those homeruns would have been routine flyballs without the steroids. Starting with Brady Anderson hitting 50 homeruns, Luis Gonzalez hitting 57, and through Bonds 73 the numbers are just suspect at best regarding homeruns. (Including the two time cheater Sammy Sosa - Corked bat and Steroids)

 

Isn't there speculation that Maris and his contemporaries were on amphetamines?

 

Players have been skirting the rules since the rules were made, I don't really see the point in getting so upset at Bonds, and I don't like him one bit.

Where did I say I was upset with Bonds? They guy I'm most upset with is Bud Selig for turning a blind eye to the problem.

 

And since when do amphetamines give you a boost in power. They make your more alert and hyper but don't give you more strength to turn flyballs into homeruns. I suppose if you want to take it to extremes you could argue somehow hotdogs and beer gave Ruth an unfair advantage.

 

Its not unfair because hot dogs and beer are available to all and legal.

[cubfan1955]

And Roger Maris still holds the single season homerun record in my book. All of the steroid freaks were great talents but a lot of those homeruns would have been routine flyballs without the steroids. Starting with Brady Anderson hitting 50 homeruns, Luis Gonzalez hitting 57, and through Bonds 73 the numbers are just suspect at best regarding homeruns. (Including the two time cheater Sammy Sosa - Corked bat and Steroids)

 

Isn't there speculation that Maris and his contemporaries were on amphetamines?

 

Players have been skirting the rules since the rules were made, I don't really see the point in getting so upset at Bonds, and I don't like him one bit.

Where did I say I was upset with Bonds? They guy I'm most upset with is Bud Selig for turning a blind eye to the problem.

 

And since when do amphetamines give you a boost in power. They make your more alert and hyper but don't give you more strength to turn flyballs into homeruns. I suppose if you want to take it to extremes you could argue somehow hotdogs and beer gave Ruth an unfair advantage.

 

Its not unfair because hot dogs and beer are available to all and legal.

Maybe only the Babe knew of their powers? :lol:

[soccer10k]

Congratulations to Barry. And congratulations in advance when he passes Hank Aaron!

 

Arguably one of the best players of all time, no matter what anyone says.

 

Thank you!

 

If Bonds was on the Cubs, people on this site would have such a diffrent attitude on Barry. If you support Sosa especially, then how could you hate Bonds? Ludacris. Best hitter of our generation, people.

 

Big difference between Sosa and Bonds. First off, Sosa's not breaking any records. Second, and most importantly, Sosa is a suspected cheater, while Bonds is a known cheater. Bonds is heralded as the greatest hitter of our generation because of what he has done from 2001 and forward. That's going back to when he was 36. The 4 greatest offensive seasons of his career occured after he turned 36. He was outstanding before that, but nothing he did in his prime was ever considered Ruthian. It's been everything he did after he started juicing in 99 or 2000.

 

I'll give you that nothing he did before 98 was ever considered Ruthian. But Bonds was the greatest player of our generation before steroids and the steriods issue makes people forget about this. If Bonds wouldn't have taken steroids, he would have been a first ballot HOFer anyway. The guy was the quintessiential five tool player. He would have ended up with over 500 HR's and over 500 SB's. He wouldn't have 715 career HR's but make no mistake about it, Bonds was a great player without steroids.

 

Also, I read Howard Bryant's "Juicing The Game" a couple months ago and there was a line that went something like "steroids turn a average player into a good player and a good player into a great player. But who knows what they would do to a great player." Well, I think we know and Bonds is the example.

[BigSlick]

Congratulations to Barry. And congratulations in advance when he passes Hank Aaron!

 

Arguably one of the best players of all time, no matter what anyone says.

 

Thank you!

 

If Bonds was on the Cubs, people on this site would have such a diffrent attitude on Barry. If you support Sosa especially, then how could you hate Bonds? Ludacris. Best hitter of our generation, people.

 

Big difference between Sosa and Bonds. First off, Sosa's not breaking any records. Second, and most importantly, Sosa is a suspected cheater, while Bonds is a known cheater. Bonds is heralded as the greatest hitter of our generation because of what he has done from 2001 and forward. That's going back to when he was 36. The 4 greatest offensive seasons of his career occured after he turned 36. He was outstanding before that, but nothing he did in his prime was ever considered Ruthian. It's been everything he did after he started juicing in 99 or 2000.

 

I'll give you that nothing he did before 98 was ever considered Ruthian. But Bonds was the greatest player of our generation before steroids and the steriods issue makes people forget about this. If Bonds wouldn't have taken steroids, he would have been a first ballot HOFer anyway. The guy was the quintessiential five tool player. He would have ended up with over 500 HR's and over 500 SB's. He wouldn't have 715 career HR's but make no mistake about it, Bonds was a great player without steroids.

 

Also, I read Howard Bryant's "Juicing The Game" a couple months ago and there was a line that went something like "steroids turn a average player into a good player and a good player into a great player. But who knows what they would do to a great player." Well, I think we know and Bonds is the example.

 

No one is denying that he would have been first ballot steroids or not, but he definitely would not be knocking on Hank Aaron's door without steroids.

 

Something is sketchy when the next available player's Runs Created are almost HALF what yours are.

[soccer10k]

Congratulations to Barry. And congratulations in advance when he passes Hank Aaron!

 

Arguably one of the best players of all time, no matter what anyone says.

 

Thank you!

 

If Bonds was on the Cubs, people on this site would have such a diffrent attitude on Barry. If you support Sosa especially, then how could you hate Bonds? Ludacris. Best hitter of our generation, people.

 

The difference is that Sosa was beloved by the media and the fans up until is last couple years. Bonds is just a jerk. I'm not saying Cubs fans wouldn't love him, but there is a huge personality difference between the two.

[TB_11]

And Roger Maris still holds the single season homerun record in my book. All of the steroid freaks were great talents but a lot of those homeruns would have been routine flyballs without the steroids. Starting with Brady Anderson hitting 50 homeruns, Luis Gonzalez hitting 57, and through Bonds 73 the numbers are just suspect at best regarding homeruns. (Including the two time cheater Sammy Sosa - Corked bat and Steroids)

 

Isn't there speculation that Maris and his contemporaries were on amphetamines?

 

Players have been skirting the rules since the rules were made, I don't really see the point in getting so upset at Bonds, and I don't like him one bit.

So cheating is okay in your book?

 

No, the point is that getting so upset at Bonds because he cheated to break records that were set by people who might have cheated themselves is a bit silly.

 

There are some differences between Bonds and many of the other cheaters:

 

1. Some of the other cheaters showed an ounce of remorse after getting caught (Palmeiro being the glaring exception)

2. None of the other cheaters took the attitude that they are being victimized as much as Bonds has

3. None of the other cheaters had a "reality" show disguise a PR stunt

4. Out of all the suspected cheaters, Bonds has probably been the biggest jerk/prima donna in the majors for a long time

 

Throw those four items together and the fans anger at Bonds is a little more understandable.

[Jehrico]

And Roger Maris still holds the single season homerun record in my book. All of the steroid freaks were great talents but a lot of those homeruns would have been routine flyballs without the steroids. Starting with Brady Anderson hitting 50 homeruns, Luis Gonzalez hitting 57, and through Bonds 73 the numbers are just suspect at best regarding homeruns. (Including the two time cheater Sammy Sosa - Corked bat and Steroids)

 

Isn't there speculation that Maris and his contemporaries were on amphetamines?

 

Players have been skirting the rules since the rules were made, I don't really see the point in getting so upset at Bonds, and I don't like him one bit.

So cheating is okay in your book?

 

No, the point is that getting so upset at Bonds because he cheated to break records that were set by people who might have cheated themselves is a bit silly.

 

For all we know, Cy Young and Mendoza might have been cheaters. I think it's absurd to give Bonds a pass and not get upset about his cheating because others *might* have cheated. Just because others *might* have gotten away with it, you don't give those that *did* cheat any slack, otherwise the game loses every bit of credibility that it has. The only way to deter others from cheating in the future is to drop the hammer as hard as you can on those that you know did. Allowing Bonds any slack because Maris may have been on amphetamines is the equivalent to giving Scott Peterson the benefit of the doubt because OJ got over.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

And Roger Maris still holds the single season homerun record in my book. All of the steroid freaks were great talents but a lot of those homeruns would have been routine flyballs without the steroids. Starting with Brady Anderson hitting 50 homeruns, Luis Gonzalez hitting 57, and through Bonds 73 the numbers are just suspect at best regarding homeruns. (Including the two time cheater Sammy Sosa - Corked bat and Steroids)

 

Isn't there speculation that Maris and his contemporaries were on amphetamines?

 

Players have been skirting the rules since the rules were made, I don't really see the point in getting so upset at Bonds, and I don't like him one bit.

So cheating is okay in your book?

 

No, the point is that getting so upset at Bonds because he cheated to break records that were set by people who might have cheated themselves is a bit silly.

 

For all we know, Cy Young and Mendoza might have been cheaters. I think it's absurd to give Bonds a pass and not get upset about his cheating because others *might* have cheated. Just because others *might* have gotten away with it, you don't give those that *did* cheat any slack, otherwise the game loses every bit of credibility that it has. The only way to deter others from cheating in the future is to drop the hammer as hard as you can on those that you know did. Allowing Bonds any slack because Maris may have been on amphetamines is the equivalent to giving Scott Peterson the benefit of the doubt because OJ got over.

 

I didn't say that we should condone what Bonds did. I'm saying that all the vitriol and spite towards him is out of proportion.

[Jehrico]

Congratulations to Barry. And congratulations in advance when he passes Hank Aaron!

 

Arguably one of the best players of all time, no matter what anyone says.

 

Thank you!

 

If Bonds was on the Cubs, people on this site would have such a diffrent attitude on Barry. If you support Sosa especially, then how could you hate Bonds? Ludacris. Best hitter of our generation, people.

 

Big difference between Sosa and Bonds. First off, Sosa's not breaking any records. Second, and most importantly, Sosa is a suspected cheater, while Bonds is a known cheater. Bonds is heralded as the greatest hitter of our generation because of what he has done from 2001 and forward. That's going back to when he was 36. The 4 greatest offensive seasons of his career occured after he turned 36. He was outstanding before that, but nothing he did in his prime was ever considered Ruthian. It's been everything he did after he started juicing in 99 or 2000.

 

 

you need more than cork sprayed all over the infield to be convinced sammy was a cheater? you have your head in the sand as deep as the ones who defend barry as having never used if you really feel that way.

 

Lets get into symantecs here...Sosa is suspected of using Roids while Bonds is known to have used Roids. This discussion was about Bonds, roids, and an exclamation mark on his accomplishments. I can't stand it when other posters feel the need to railroad the OBVIOUS conversation on an unrelated point because they don't like someone's point of view.

 

If you really want to get into the Sosa vs Bonds debate with the cork, there's two big differences...one, it's been proven that corking your bat does not help you hit more home runs, and two, just about every other bat Sammy's ever used was xrayed to see if they had cork, and none did. His story that it was a one time accident is more believable (in part because he wasn't the sharpest tack in the box) than his assertion he never juiced. But there's no proof to the contrary on either.

 

Back to Bonds vs Sosa...Sosa was caught cheating with cork, and whether or not it was an accident, his reputation was severely tarnished, he was under scrutiny for the rest of his career, and his accomplishments now have an asterisk next to them too. Get yourown head out of the sand and follow the debate rather than railroading the subject off on a tangent.

[cubfan1955]

I didn't say that we should condone what Bonds did. I'm saying that all the vitriol and spite towards him is out of proportion.

I think a lot of that comes from his surly attitude than his use of steroids. I still would not care for the man if steroids were never an issue. I remember Jack Buck once commenting about Bonds before steroids ever were suspected. Buck said Hello to Bonds on the field before a game and Bonds looked him straight in the eye and walked right past him without saying a word. You reap what you sew.

[Jehrico]

And Roger Maris still holds the single season homerun record in my book. All of the steroid freaks were great talents but a lot of those homeruns would have been routine flyballs without the steroids. Starting with Brady Anderson hitting 50 homeruns, Luis Gonzalez hitting 57, and through Bonds 73 the numbers are just suspect at best regarding homeruns. (Including the two time cheater Sammy Sosa - Corked bat and Steroids)

 

Isn't there speculation that Maris and his contemporaries were on amphetamines?

 

Players have been skirting the rules since the rules were made, I don't really see the point in getting so upset at Bonds, and I don't like him one bit.

So cheating is okay in your book?

 

No, the point is that getting so upset at Bonds because he cheated to break records that were set by people who might have cheated themselves is a bit silly.

 

For all we know, Cy Young and Mendoza might have been cheaters. I think it's absurd to give Bonds a pass and not get upset about his cheating because others *might* have cheated. Just because others *might* have gotten away with it, you don't give those that *did* cheat any slack, otherwise the game loses every bit of credibility that it has. The only way to deter others from cheating in the future is to drop the hammer as hard as you can on those that you know did. Allowing Bonds any slack because Maris may have been on amphetamines is the equivalent to giving Scott Peterson the benefit of the doubt because OJ got over.

 

I didn't say that we should condone what Bonds did. I'm saying that all the vitriol and spite towards him is out of proportion.

 

Should the crew that threw the Black Sox series have been run out of the game the way they were? Anyone who undermines the integrity of the game by cheating deserves every bit of contempt that they receive. Cheaters are cheaters, I don't think anyone deserves to be criticized for hating Barry, he brought it on himself.

[bc2k]

Congratulations to Barry. And congratulations in advance when he passes Hank Aaron!

 

Arguably one of the best players of all time, no matter what anyone says.

 

Thank you!

 

If Bonds was on the Cubs, people on this site would have such a diffrent attitude on Barry. If you support Sosa especially, then how could you hate Bonds? Ludacris. Best hitter of our generation, people.

 

Big difference between Sosa and Bonds. First off, Sosa's not breaking any records. Second, and most importantly, Sosa is a suspected cheater, while Bonds is a known cheater. Bonds is heralded as the greatest hitter of our generation because of what he has done from 2001 and forward. That's going back to when he was 36. The 4 greatest offensive seasons of his career occured after he turned 36. He was outstanding before that, but nothing he did in his prime was ever considered Ruthian. It's been everything he did after he started juicing in 99 or 2000.

 

I'll give you that nothing he did before 98 was ever considered Ruthian. But Bonds was the greatest player of our generation before steroids and the steriods issue makes people forget about this. If Bonds wouldn't have taken steroids, he would have been a first ballot HOFer anyway. The guy was the quintessiential five tool player. He would have ended up with over 500 HR's and over 500 SB's. He wouldn't have 715 career HR's but make no mistake about it, Bonds was a great player without steroids.

 

Also, I read Howard Bryant's "Juicing The Game" a couple months ago and there was a line that went something like "steroids turn a average player into a good player and a good player into a great player. But who knows what they would do to a great player." Well, I think we know and Bonds is the example.

 

I agree that without his use of performance-enhancing drugs, Bonds would have been a fist-ballot HOFer. I also believe that his use of performance-enhancing drugs is cheating and should be punished by not receiving the honor of admission to the HOF.

 

There must be consequence for his cheating.

[Jehrico]

I'll give you that nothing he did before 98 was ever considered Ruthian. But Bonds was the greatest player of our generation before steroids and the steriods issue makes people forget about this. If Bonds wouldn't have taken steroids, he would have been a first ballot HOFer anyway. The guy was the quintessiential five tool player. He would have ended up with over 500 HR's and over 500 SB's. He wouldn't have 715 career HR's but make no mistake about it, Bonds was a great player without steroids.

 

Also, I read Howard Bryant's "Juicing The Game" a couple months ago and there was a line that went something like "steroids turn a average player into a good player and a good player into a great player. But who knows what they would do to a great player." Well, I think we know and Bonds is the example.

 

Let me clarify my original post...I don't want to take anything away from what he did earlier in his career. Before the time he's suspected of beginning to juice, he was probably an "average to above average" first ballot HOFer (that's a heck of an insult, isn't it?). He was a great player, *one* of the greatest of our time back then. However, I don't think you'd find anyone giving him accolades that put a good gap between him and Griffey, ARod, or others. They were all in the same category at the time. It's been Barroid's post-juicing accomplishments that have elevated him to the status of the definitive "greatest player of our time" and put him in the best-of-the-best category alongside Ruth, Aaron, and Mays.

[BigSlick]

Congratulations to Barry. And congratulations in advance when he passes Hank Aaron!

 

Arguably one of the best players of all time, no matter what anyone says.

 

Thank you!

 

If Bonds was on the Cubs, people on this site would have such a diffrent attitude on Barry. If you support Sosa especially, then how could you hate Bonds? Ludacris. Best hitter of our generation, people.

 

Big difference between Sosa and Bonds. First off, Sosa's not breaking any records. Second, and most importantly, Sosa is a suspected cheater, while Bonds is a known cheater. Bonds is heralded as the greatest hitter of our generation because of what he has done from 2001 and forward. That's going back to when he was 36. The 4 greatest offensive seasons of his career occured after he turned 36. He was outstanding before that, but nothing he did in his prime was ever considered Ruthian. It's been everything he did after he started juicing in 99 or 2000.

 

I'll give you that nothing he did before 98 was ever considered Ruthian. But Bonds was the greatest player of our generation before steroids and the steriods issue makes people forget about this. If Bonds wouldn't have taken steroids, he would have been a first ballot HOFer anyway. The guy was the quintessiential five tool player. He would have ended up with over 500 HR's and over 500 SB's. He wouldn't have 715 career HR's but make no mistake about it, Bonds was a great player without steroids.

 

Also, I read Howard Bryant's "Juicing The Game" a couple months ago and there was a line that went something like "steroids turn a average player into a good player and a good player into a great player. But who knows what they would do to a great player." Well, I think we know and Bonds is the example.

 

I agree that without his use of performance-enhancing drugs, Bonds would have been a fist-ballot HOFer. I also believe that his use of performance-enhancing drugs is cheating and should be punished by not receiving the honor of admission to the HOF.

 

There must be consequence for his cheating.

 

I can't even imagine what would happen to him if he is found to have juiced 1999-2004 or whatever. (Solid proof)

 

I dunno what would happen, would he make the Hall of Fame? Palmeiro might have checked his ticket out after last years scandal...but Bonds has been such an incredible player, it would be hard to kick him out.