Hendry, Wood, Prior (& Dusty) Theory

[goonys evil twin]

Well, that's not the kind of reason I was talking about. In all sports, the philosophy of following coddling managers with disciplinarians has been proven to be a successful one.

 

How has it been proven?

[srbin84]

Well, that's not the kind of reason I was talking about. In all sports, the philosophy of following coddling managers with disciplinarians has been proven to be a successful one.

 

How has it been proven?

 

In the standings.

[goonys evil twin]

And in terms of comparing Lou to Davey Johnson, let's be fair: Johnson's WS title was 20 years ago, and he had several chances with very talented Baltimore teams in the 90's.

 

Johnson's was 20 and Lou's was 16. So what? They were both very long ago. And Johnson was with Baltimore for 2 years. His first year he improved the team by 17 wins and won the wild card. He got 10 more wins in his 2nd year, when Baltimore won 98. He was 2-2 in playoffs series with Bmore, then he was gone, when Angelos's overpaid bunch of over the hill veterans disintigrated. He did not have "several chances". He finished 1st or 2nd in 12 of 14 seasons as a manager, a lot of which took place before the 3 division and wild card format made that easier to accomplish. Lou was 1st or 2nd 8 of 19 times and had a lot of 3, 4 and 5th place finishes during the 3 division era. Davey also had a higher winning percentage.

 

I'm not sure it's possible to say definitively which manager was better, but Johnson had more success.

 

Of course he did. He coached much better teams. What did you expect from those Tampa teams: .500 record........playoffs?!?

 

Lou had a lot of 3rd and worst place finishes in Seattle, with some of the most talented baseball players in history, and the benefit of a 4 team division.

[goonys evil twin]

Well, that's not the kind of reason I was talking about. In all sports, the philosophy of following coddling managers with disciplinarians has been proven to be a successful one.

 

How has it been proven?

 

In the standings.

 

You can't just say it and have it be so. You say it's been proven, well show the proof.

[CubinNY]

Well, that's not the kind of reason I was talking about. In all sports, the philosophy of following coddling managers with disciplinarians has been proven to be a successful one.

 

How has it been proven?

 

In the standings.

 

What standings? When?

[USSoccer]

Well, that's not the kind of reason I was talking about. In all sports, the philosophy of following coddling managers with disciplinarians has been proven to be a successful one.

 

How has it been proven?

 

In the standings.

 

Source?

[Scott G. F.]

He was managing a AAA team in Tampa. Everything else he has done is great. When you fire a manager or head coach in any sport, it's good to bring in a different type of manager to change things sometimes. The Cubs are the perfect example of this type of team. They are a lazy team because of their manager, so they need someone who will not take any crap and put them in line when they make a mistake instead of kissing their butt and telling them it's ok and everything is gonna be alright.

 

He chose to go to Tampa. And he wasn't any better in Seattle than Dusty was in San Fran (and both men won because of the ability to pencil in all time greats every day - and neither reached the promised land despite all that talent).

 

 

Everybody likes to talk about how smart it is to change the makeup of the team by changing the personality of the manager, but what proof do you have that it works? Philly was a moderately talented team that struggled under Francona, who was considered a soft excuse making players managers. So they brought in Bowa and still struggled. A lot of people just assume that ranting and raving and intensity will equal great success, I disagree.

 

Larry Bowa brought alot of fire but not much people skill. He was why over the top. Lou Piniella isn't a raving loon. Nither is Davie Johnson. But do you think for one minute that Sammy Sosa would have considered leaving early if either those guy's were managing? I think we all know the answer.

 

Dusty must go and be replaced by someone that holds his players accountable!!

[goonys evil twin]

Larry Bowa brought alot of fire but not much people skill. He was why over the top. Lou Piniella isn't a raving loon.

 

I beg to differ. Lou is as much of a loon as Bowa.

[SouthSideRyan]

I like the idea of getting Lou Piniella. He brings the intensity and fire that this team needs. He is the complete opposite of Dusty Baker. Instead of making excuses for his players, he puts them in line and is a no nonsense kind of guy. Making the argument that he wouldn't be a good hire because of his record in TAMPA BAY is flat out laughable.

 

As laughable as arguing he's a good hire because of his record in Tampa? Cause that's what Scott's doing. So Piniella made 4 playoff appearances in 10 years? (Was actuall a 7 year span) So 4 times in 7 years. Yeah, I think the Cubs had a guy who did that before. His name was Dusty Baker.

[CubinNY]

He was managing a AAA team in Tampa. Everything else he has done is great. When you fire a manager or head coach in any sport, it's good to bring in a different type of manager to change things sometimes. The Cubs are the perfect example of this type of team. They are a lazy team because of their manager, so they need someone who will not take any crap and put them in line when they make a mistake instead of kissing their butt and telling them it's ok and everything is gonna be alright.

 

He chose to go to Tampa. And he wasn't any better in Seattle than Dusty was in San Fran (and both men won because of the ability to pencil in all time greats every day - and neither reached the promised land despite all that talent).

 

 

Everybody likes to talk about how smart it is to change the makeup of the team by changing the personality of the manager, but what proof do you have that it works? Philly was a moderately talented team that struggled under Francona, who was considered a soft excuse making players managers. So they brought in Bowa and still struggled. A lot of people just assume that ranting and raving and intensity will equal great success, I disagree.

 

Larry Bowa brought alot of fire but not much people skill. He was why over the top. Lou Piniella isn't a raving loon. Nither is Davie Johnson. But do you think for one minute that Sammy Sosa would have considered leaving early if either those guy's were managing? I think we all know the answer.

 

Dusty must go and be replaced by someone that holds his players accountable!!

 

If you don't think Sammy was held accountable for his actions then I really don't know what to say.

[Scott G. F.]

He was managing a AAA team in Tampa. Everything else he has done is great. When you fire a manager or head coach in any sport, it's good to bring in a different type of manager to change things sometimes. The Cubs are the perfect example of this type of team. They are a lazy team because of their manager, so they need someone who will not take any crap and put them in line when they make a mistake instead of kissing their butt and telling them it's ok and everything is gonna be alright.

 

He chose to go to Tampa. And he wasn't any better in Seattle than Dusty was in San Fran (and both men won because of the ability to pencil in all time greats every day - and neither reached the promised land despite all that talent).

 

 

Everybody likes to talk about how smart it is to change the makeup of the team by changing the personality of the manager, but what proof do you have that it works? Philly was a moderately talented team that struggled under Francona, who was considered a soft excuse making players managers. So they brought in Bowa and still struggled. A lot of people just assume that ranting and raving and intensity will equal great success, I disagree.

 

Larry Bowa brought alot of fire but not much people skill. He was why over the top. Lou Piniella isn't a raving loon. Nither is Davie Johnson. But do you think for one minute that Sammy Sosa would have considered leaving early if either those guy's were managing? I think we all know the answer.

 

Dusty must go and be replaced by someone that holds his players accountable!!

 

If you don't think Sammy was held accountable for his actions then I really don't know what to say.

 

 

My point is he wouldn't have done it because he would have been held accountable!! With Dusty in that case he threw Sosa under the bus much to Sosa's suprize.

[Scott G. F.]

Larry Bowa brought alot of fire but not much people skill. He was why over the top. Lou Piniella isn't a raving loon.

 

I beg to differ. Lou is as much of a loon as Bowa.

 

 

Yes but he would be our loon! Baker walks out of the dugout to argue and you don't think anything of it. Lou P comes out and you get interested really fast. The players see this and see the fire. With Dusty they see someone just awaken from a nap!

[SouthSideRyan]

He was managing a AAA team in Tampa. Everything else he has done is great. When you fire a manager or head coach in any sport, it's good to bring in a different type of manager to change things sometimes. The Cubs are the perfect example of this type of team. They are a lazy team because of their manager, so they need someone who will not take any crap and put them in line when they make a mistake instead of kissing their butt and telling them it's ok and everything is gonna be alright.

 

He chose to go to Tampa. And he wasn't any better in Seattle than Dusty was in San Fran (and both men won because of the ability to pencil in all time greats every day - and neither reached the promised land despite all that talent).

 

 

Everybody likes to talk about how smart it is to change the makeup of the team by changing the personality of the manager, but what proof do you have that it works? Philly was a moderately talented team that struggled under Francona, who was considered a soft excuse making players managers. So they brought in Bowa and still struggled. A lot of people just assume that ranting and raving and intensity will equal great success, I disagree.

 

Larry Bowa brought alot of fire but not much people skill. He was why over the top. Lou Piniella isn't a raving loon. Nither is Davie Johnson. But do you think for one minute that Sammy Sosa would have considered leaving early if either those guy's were managing? I think we all know the answer.

 

Dusty must go and be replaced by someone that holds his players accountable!!

 

If you don't think Sammy was held accountable for his actions then I really don't know what to say.

 

 

My point is he wouldn't have done it because he would have been held accountable!! With Dusty in that case he threw Sosa under the bus much to Sosa's suprize.

 

So Sosa left early becasue he wouldn't be held accountable. But then he was. Did Rob Dibble fight Lou Piniella because he wouldn't be held accountable?

[rocket]

Larry Bowa brought alot of fire but not much people skill. He was why over the top. Lou Piniella isn't a raving loon.

 

I beg to differ. Lou is as much of a loon as Bowa.

 

 

Yes but he would be our loon! Baker walks out of the dugout to argue and you don't think anything of it. Lou P comes out and you get interested really fast. The players see this and see the fire. With Dusty they see someone just awaken from a nap!

 

Aramis: Well gee, I wasn't gonna try and hit a homer. But now that I see Lou is angry and the crowd is pointing and laughing at him, I shall now hit a monstrous homerun to show my appreciation for Lou! *CRACK*

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Did Rob Dibble fight Lou Piniella because he wouldn't be held accountable?

 

Actually, that was probably because Dibble was/is a loon too.

[srbin84]

He was managing a AAA team in Tampa. Everything else he has done is great. When you fire a manager or head coach in any sport, it's good to bring in a different type of manager to change things sometimes. The Cubs are the perfect example of this type of team. They are a lazy team because of their manager, so they need someone who will not take any crap and put them in line when they make a mistake instead of kissing their butt and telling them it's ok and everything is gonna be alright.

 

He chose to go to Tampa. And he wasn't any better in Seattle than Dusty was in San Fran (and both men won because of the ability to pencil in all time greats every day - and neither reached the promised land despite all that talent).

 

 

Everybody likes to talk about how smart it is to change the makeup of the team by changing the personality of the manager, but what proof do you have that it works? Philly was a moderately talented team that struggled under Francona, who was considered a soft excuse making players managers. So they brought in Bowa and still struggled. A lot of people just assume that ranting and raving and intensity will equal great success, I disagree.

 

Bowa was 86-76 in 2001 and Francona 65-97 in 2000.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Time to bring the facts to the Piniella-Johnson debate.

 

Piniella 20 seasons; Johnson 14.

 

Piniella has a 517 Winning Percentage; Johnson 564.

 

Seasons over .500:

Piniella 10 (50%) or if remove Tampa seasons 56%.

Johnson 12 (86%)

 

Seasons over .600

Piniella 1 (an impressive 716 with Seattle) (5%) or 6% without Tampa.

Johnson 3 (21%)

 

Seasons with 100+ win teams

Piniella 1 (5%) or 6% if you remove his Tampa years.

Johnson 2 (14%)

 

World Series wins

Piniella 1

Johnson 1

 

First Place Finishes

Piniella 4 (20%) or 24% removing Tampa years.

Johnson 4 (29%)

 

Johnson also finished under 3rd or lower twice (14%). Those are also the only seasons he managed an under 500 team.

 

Pinellla, even without Tampa had eight teams finish 3rd or lower (11 if you count Tampa) (47%) and had five teams under 500 (30%) or eight teams under 500 out of 20 if you count the Tampa years.

 

Even wiping Tampa off Piniella's resume', he still doesn't appear to be the caliber of manager Davey Johnson has been.

[snoodmonger]

Do we need a more competent manager? Yes, of course.

 

More importantly, though, we need better players, and we need the good players we have to stay healthy. We're not losing right now because of Dusty. We're losing because the team isn't very good.

[Scott G. F.]

Larry Bowa brought alot of fire but not much people skill. He was why over the top. Lou Piniella isn't a raving loon.

 

I beg to differ. Lou is as much of a loon as Bowa.

 

 

Yes but he would be our loon! Baker walks out of the dugout to argue and you don't think anything of it. Lou P comes out and you get interested really fast. The players see this and see the fire. With Dusty they see someone just awaken from a nap!

 

Aramis: Well gee, I wasn't gonna try and hit a homer. But now that I see Lou is angry and the crowd is pointing and laughing at him, I shall now hit a monstrous homerun to show my appreciation for Lou! *CRACK*

 

Dusty is coming from the dugout wonder who woke him up? I will now leg out a double so he stays awake, pulling my hammy and having Dusty pull an excuse about day games Karma and the sun. Effort not really needed.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Bowa was 86-76 in 2001 and Francona 65-97 in 2000.

 

Were there any other personnel differences in those seasons? Say Jimmy Rollins or Pat Burrell. Stuff like that?

[Scott G. F.]

Time to bring the facts to the Piniella-Johnson debate.

 

Piniella 20 seasons; Johnson 14.

 

Piniella has a 517 Winning Percentage; Johnson 564.

 

Seasons over .500:

Piniella 10 (50%) or if remove Tampa seasons 56%.

Johnson 12 (86%)

 

Seasons over .600

Piniella 1 (an impressive 716 with Seattle) (5%) or 6% without Tampa.

Johnson 3 (21%)

 

Seasons with 100+ win teams

Piniella 1 (5%) or 6% if you remove his Tampa years.

Johnson 2 (14%)

 

World Series wins

Piniella 1

Johnson 1

 

First Place Finishes

Piniella 4 (20%) or 24% removing Tampa years.

Johnson 4 (29%)

 

Johnson also finished under 3rd or lower twice (14%). Those are also the only seasons he managed an under 500 team.

 

Pinellla, even without Tampa had eight teams finish 3rd or lower (11 if you count Tampa) (47%) and had five teams under 500 (30%) or eight teams under 500 out of 20 if you count the Tampa years.

 

Even wiping Tampa off Piniella's resume', he still doesn't appear to be the caliber of manager Davey Johnson has been.

 

Good work. One question. Why isn't Davie Johnson working then?

[goonys evil twin]

Bowa was 86-76 in 2001 and Francona 65-97 in 2000.

 

And they got rid of Bowa a couple years later when they stagnated and went with another soft players manager.

 

Personality isn't what is holding back the Cubs. It's baseball ability, both players and coaches.

[USSoccer]

Replacing a manager with a guy who yells and tries to pull bases from their moorings isn't going to help Pierre get on base. It's not going to help our pitchers throw strikes. It's not going to do anything except provide the illusion of intensity.

 

All that matters is the talent on the roster.

 

And what will happen if Lou replaces Dusty and there's no effect on the team's play? People will say that Lou's intensity "turned the team off", and the players "tuned him out".

[srbin84]

Bowa was 86-76 in 2001 and Francona 65-97 in 2000.

 

Were there any other personnel differences in those seasons? Say Jimmy Rollins or Pat Burrell. Stuff like that?

 

Burrell was there in 2000, and Rollins didn't even have that good a year in 2001.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Time to bring the facts to the Piniella-Johnson debate.

 

Piniella 20 seasons; Johnson 14.

 

Piniella has a 517 Winning Percentage; Johnson 564.

 

Seasons over .500:

Piniella 10 (50%) or if remove Tampa seasons 56%.

Johnson 12 (86%)

 

Seasons over .600

Piniella 1 (an impressive 716 with Seattle) (5%) or 6% without Tampa.

Johnson 3 (21%)

 

Seasons with 100+ win teams

Piniella 1 (5%) or 6% if you remove his Tampa years.

Johnson 2 (14%)

 

World Series wins

Piniella 1

Johnson 1

 

First Place Finishes

Piniella 4 (20%) or 24% removing Tampa years.

Johnson 4 (29%)

 

Johnson also finished under 3rd or lower twice (14%). Those are also the only seasons he managed an under 500 team.

 

Pinellla, even without Tampa had eight teams finish 3rd or lower (11 if you count Tampa) (47%) and had five teams under 500 (30%) or eight teams under 500 out of 20 if you count the Tampa years.

 

Even wiping Tampa off Piniella's resume', he still doesn't appear to be the caliber of manager Davey Johnson has been.

 

Good work. One question. Why isn't Davie Johnson working then?

 

I don't think anyone has stroked his massive ego into returning.

 

Davey isn't going to return to coach a bunch of losers for Tampa or Kansas City. He's going to want to be paid as a top manager and want management to get him the players he wants.

 

The same question could have been asked about Leyland for the last few years. Sometimes these guys just want to take off.

 

I think Johnson could be lured back into the game. I also think the Cubs likely would be a team he'd be intrigued in coaching for. He'd likely want the same money we're paying Dusty.