Cubs OF

[BigbadB]

It's so early on Murton, so I try to rein in my enthusiasm, but he just seems to have everything right. His approach at the plate is excellent. He seems to really study the game and work to improve. He looks like he has been working out to improve his power.

 

I must say I'm very impressed with him right now. He could be a true Godsend for this team, bringing us from one of the worst outfields in baseball to average/passable.

 

Please keep going as you are, Murt 8)

 

Agreed. I really like his approach at the plate. He drew a 6 pitch walk yesterday without ever taking his bat off his shoulder.

 

If that last pitch was a hittable pitch, he probably would have driven it to the opposite field, but, first and forermost making sure he made contact.

 

I'm really going to like this kid!

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

There's something to be said for luck. Take the same players and put them in Cubbie blue and they tear groins coming out the batters box.

 

One thing that makes my eyes roll is the "luck" thing. With all due respect I think the Cardinals have superior major league talent evaluators and coaching staff.

 

Superior major league talent evaluators? Your farm system disproves that notion.

 

Superior coaching staff? We have Baker. he sucks. you win.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

It's premature to call Ronny "crap?"

 

Please, show me the studliness of Ronny Cedeno. One good year of offense doesn't mean much. I can show you hundreds of minor leaguers with better qualifications for success than that who never panned out in the big leagues.

[XZero771679666304]

It's premature to call Ronny "crap?"

 

Please, show me the studliness of Ronny Cedeno. One good year of offense doesn't mean much. I can show you hundreds of minor leaguers with better qualifications for success than that who never panned out in the big leagues.

 

Yes. At least wait for him to suck for a few weeks first. He hasn't proven anything, that he sucks included.

[Gunned]

It's premature to call Ronny "crap?"

 

Please, show me the studliness of Ronny Cedeno. One good year of offense doesn't mean much. I can show you hundreds of minor leaguers with better qualifications for success than that who never panned out in the big leagues.

 

Yes. At least wait for him to suck for a few weeks first. He hasn't proven anything, that he sucks included.

 

He still needs some time, but the early results aren't good. I know everyone wants our prospects to succeed, but Ronny looks absolutely overmatched at the plate. I just hope he can play great defense for the time being.

[brinoch]

It's premature to call Ronny "crap?"

 

Please, show me the studliness of Ronny Cedeno. One good year of offense doesn't mean much. I can show you hundreds of minor leaguers with better qualifications for success than that who never panned out in the big leagues.

 

Yes. At least wait for him to suck for a few weeks first. He hasn't proven anything, that he sucks included.

 

He still needs some time, but the early results aren't good. I know everyone wants our prospects to succeed, but Ronny looks absolutely overmatched at the plate. I just hope he can play great defense for the time being.

 

Wow. He looked terrible in ST and in one game and gets labelled as overmatched. Meanwhile, he did fine last season everywhere he played. Let's give him a little time.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

There's something to be said for luck. Take the same players and put them in Cubbie blue and they tear groins coming out the batters box.

 

One thing that makes my eyes roll is the "luck" thing. With all due respect I think the Cardinals have superior major league talent evaluators and coaching staff.

 

Superior major league talent evaluators? Your farm system disproves that notion.

 

Superior coaching staff? We have Baker. he sucks. you win.

 

I meant to write "better at evaluating major league talent".

[moorecg]

It's premature to call Ronny "crap?"

 

Please, show me the studliness of Ronny Cedeno. One good year of offense doesn't mean much. I can show you hundreds of minor leaguers with better qualifications for success than that who never panned out in the big leagues.

 

Yes. At least wait for him to suck for a few weeks first. He hasn't proven anything, that he sucks included.

 

He still needs some time, but the early results aren't good. I know everyone wants our prospects to succeed, but Ronny looks absolutely overmatched at the plate. I just hope he can play great defense for the time being.

 

So he had a bad Spring training....I think there are many on this board who will tell you ST means nothing...

 

Aside from that...he hit .300 in 40 games last year at age 22

 

And aside from that, I'm pretty sure he led the fall league (or winterball I can't remember) in hitting last year.

 

Not to mention that he did get a hit and score a run yesterday.

 

Now I don't think anyone is saying he's the next coming of A-Rod, but I just can't see how someone would come up with him being "crap" and that the "early results aren't good"....From what I can tell the early results are GREAT, but we've got a ways to go before they mean he's going to be a great SS.

 

Please tell me where I'm wrong on thinking this way.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

It's premature to call Ronny "crap?"

 

Please, show me the studliness of Ronny Cedeno. One good year of offense doesn't mean much. I can show you hundreds of minor leaguers with better qualifications for success than that who never panned out in the big leagues.

 

Yes. At least wait for him to suck for a few weeks first. He hasn't proven anything, that he sucks included.

 

He still needs some time, but the early results aren't good. I know everyone wants our prospects to succeed, but Ronny looks absolutely overmatched at the plate. I just hope he can play great defense for the time being.

 

So he had a bad Spring training....I think there are many on this board who will tell you ST means nothing...

 

Aside from that...he hit .300 in 40 games last year at age 22

 

And aside from that, I'm pretty sure he led the fall league (or winterball I can't remember) in hitting last year.

 

Not to mention that he did get a hit and score a run yesterday.

 

Now I don't think anyone is saying he's the next coming of A-Rod, but I just can't see how someone would come up with him being "crap" and that the "early results aren't good"....From what I can tell the early results are GREAT, but we've got a ways to go before they mean he's going to be a great SS.

 

Please tell me where I'm wrong on thinking this way.

 

He had one good year offensively...out of the 6 he spent in our system. So no, it's not too early to label him as "crap." He had a hot year, nothing more. His defense tanked in the process (how many errors did he have in VWL?), so it's not like he just completely turned his game around.

 

Ronny shouldn't have been rushed to the big leagues. He does not deserve a starting job in Chicago based on one good year. If we had gotten Furcal like Plan A dictated, Ronny would have split time with Hairston and Neifi, assuming that Walker would get traded. That would limit the offensive damage he's going to cause to this team...especially when Neifi freaking Perez starts to look good in comparison.

[Backtobanks]

It's not about the comparison of specific pieces on your team. It's the overall composition that makes you win.

 

Our SS and RF are crap. pure and simple. Our pitching is the most worrisome aspect of our team. We could absolutely dominate if Wood, Prior, and Miller all get healthy and pitch like they can (unlikely considering the injuries/surgeries they have had).

 

The Cards don't have those question marks. We have the potential, but their situation is more realized potential and not hopes and dreams of healthier days.

 

I still don't understand how our young players are question marks while teams like the Brewers have all future stars. Murton looks like the real thing and Cedeno has been successful at every level. Jones makes too much money, but is an "adequate" OF.

[moorecg]

It's premature to call Ronny "crap?"

 

Please, show me the studliness of Ronny Cedeno. One good year of offense doesn't mean much. I can show you hundreds of minor leaguers with better qualifications for success than that who never panned out in the big leagues.

 

Yes. At least wait for him to suck for a few weeks first. He hasn't proven anything, that he sucks included.

 

He still needs some time, but the early results aren't good. I know everyone wants our prospects to succeed, but Ronny looks absolutely overmatched at the plate. I just hope he can play great defense for the time being.

 

So he had a bad Spring training....I think there are many on this board who will tell you ST means nothing...

 

Aside from that...he hit .300 in 40 games last year at age 22

 

And aside from that, I'm pretty sure he led the fall league (or winterball I can't remember) in hitting last year.

 

 

Not to mention that he did get a hit and score a run yesterday.

 

Now I don't think anyone is saying he's the next coming of A-Rod, but I just can't see how someone would come up with him being "crap" and that the "early results aren't good"....From what I can tell the early results are GREAT, but we've got a ways to go before they mean he's going to be a great SS.

 

Please tell me where I'm wrong on thinking this way.

 

He had one good year offensively...out of the 6 he spent in our system. So no, it's not too early to label him as "crap." He had a hot year, nothing more. His defense tanked in the process (how many errors did he have in VWL?), so it's not like he just completely turned his game around.

 

Ronny shouldn't have been rushed to the big leagues. He does not deserve a starting job in Chicago based on one good year. If we had gotten Furcal like Plan A dictated, Ronny would have split time with Hairston and Neifi, assuming that Walker would get traded. That would limit the offensive damage he's going to cause to this team...especially when Neifi freaking Perez starts to look good in comparison.

 

The man is 23 freakin years old. Has he really been in our system for 6 years? and Regardless...he's 23 freakin years old....I don't think it would be shocking to say he started to learn to hit professional pitching at age 22.

 

I don't know your background re: whether your a big proponent of giving the young kids a chance or what your mo is regarding the situation...but I think most would agree that while we would have liked to have had Furcal, that money was insane and Ronny was a good option. Are you seriously saying that you'd rather have Neifi out there?

 

Ronny is so young I'd say its darn near impossible to tell what kind of player he will ultimatly become, but given his performance I also think its WAY to early to lable him "crap." Now Neifi..at age 32...you can call him crap if you'd like. But to give Ronny that label is just crazy talk.

[rjchapma]

Its really not one of the worst in baseball. Its not one of the best either, but its serviceable. I really think you guys are basing way to much on Pierres year last year. He's been one of the best leadoff hitters in the baseball the last 5 years. He had one bad year with the bat who cares. Jaque isnt good, but he was the best availabe (we werent going to get Brian Giles). As for Murton he looks like hes a very good hitter. I mean not just based on his numbers. I played baseball all my life and hes got perfect fundamentals. Defensivly we are pretty bad though I will say that.

[Catman61]

Career numbers, projecting a .340/.420/.760 (OBP/SLG/OPS) line for Murton:

 

Encarnacion: 96 OPS+

Edmonds: 138

Taguchi: 95

Average: 110

 

Jones: 101

Pierre: 87

Murton: ~100

Average: 96

 

PECOTA

 

Encarnacion .273/.329/.439/.768

Edmonds .285/.407/.582/.989 (your major difference maker)

Taguchi .261/.304/.372/.676

 

Jones .268/.327/.441/.768

Pierre .297/.348/.361/.709

Murton .281/.343/.418/.761

[Catman61]

doesn't change the fact that the Cards don't have what many would consider a world series caliber team's outfield..

 

Your 2005 WS champs primary OF

 

.276/.335/.519/.854

.270/.330/.408/.737

.281/.345/.344/.689

[rjchapma]

Edmonds is by far the best out of the six, but pierre is better than Taguchi and Encarnocion. Murton and Jones are about even with them.

[Catman61]

Edmonds is by far the best out of the six, but pierre is better than Taguchi and Encarnocion. Murton and Jones are about even with them.

 

I'm not sure 19 points of OBP and minus 78 points of SLG makes Pierre better than Juan E

 

I also doubt that Taguchi will be the everyday starter in LF, Rodriguez figures to see a fair amount of time his PECOTA is .265/.340/.461/.801

 

 

And while I know we are speaking of offense, but the Cards OF (Juan/Jimmy/So) is also superior defensively.

[fromthestretch]

Its really not one of the worst in baseball. Its not one of the best either, but its serviceable. I really think you guys are basing way to much on Pierres year last year. He's been one of the best leadoff hitters in the baseball the last 5 years. He had one bad year with the bat who cares. Jaque isnt good, but he was the best availabe (we werent going to get Brian Giles). As for Murton he looks like hes a very good hitter. I mean not just based on his numbers. I played baseball all my life and hes got perfect fundamentals. Defensivly we are pretty bad though I will say that.

 

Why is everyone so willing to forget that Pierre was awful in 2002, as well? A .675 OPS (including a .332 OBP) in Colorado is just plain bad. It's not like last year was a first for him.

[rjchapma]

I said the defense thing before we are horrible in the field offensively though I dont see a big gap.

[Catman61]

I said the defense thing before we are horrible in the field offensively though I dont see a big gap.

 

So what exactly qualifies as a big gap or not a big gap?

[Catman61]

PECOTA's predicted VORP

 

Jones 6.0

Pierre 13

Murton 8.5

 

Taguchi -3.4 :cry:

Encarnacion 8.0

Rodriguez 13.9

Edmonds 54.3

[rjchapma]

Not that different of numbers. I dont care what you say Encarnacion is not better than Pierre. Murton is young and we'll see what he does, but on the other hand Taguchi hasnt started for a full season. Encarncion is better then Jones. So Edmonds vs. Pierre Edmonds with a slight edge. Encarncion is better than Jones. Taguchi and Murton even. I think thats a small gap or a small edge to the Cards OF.

[moorecg]

Does anyone else expect another fairly down year from Edmonds...I just don't expect him to be at his career numbers. He turns 36 in June...hit only .250 last year (Still great OBP) and had measurable drop offs in Power, RBI and BB #s last year. He'll still likely be the best out of the 6 or 7 we're talking about...But I don't think that its "completely" unrealistic to think that Murton could close a big part of the gap

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Does anyone else expect another fairly down year from Edmonds...I just don't expect him to be at his career numbers. He turns 36 in June...hit only .250 last year (Still great OBP) and had measurable drop offs in Power, RBI and BB #s last year. He'll still likely be the best out of the 6 or 7 we're talking about...But I don't think that its "completely" unrealistic to think that Murton could close a big part of the gap

 

One of my Cards friends and I were talking about him a couple of nights ago. He seems to think Jimmy will hit 320 with 35 HRs. I told him to expect 260 and maybe 20-25, so no, you are not alone. (By the way, he hit 263 last year)

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

The man is 23 freakin years old. Has he really been in our system for 6 years? and Regardless...he's 23 freakin years old....I don't think it would be shocking to say he started to learn to hit professional pitching at age 22.

 

I don't know your background re: whether your a big proponent of giving the young kids a chance or what your mo is regarding the situation...but I think most would agree that while we would have liked to have had Furcal, that money was insane and Ronny was a good option. Are you seriously saying that you'd rather have Neifi out there?

 

Ronny is so young I'd say its darn near impossible to tell what kind of player he will ultimatly become, but given his performance I also think its WAY to early to lable him "crap." Now Neifi..at age 32...you can call him crap if you'd like. But to give Ronny that label is just crazy talk.

 

Nope. I'm saying 3M/year (the difference in Furcal's salary and what we offered) is worth having Pinto, Nolasco, and Mitre in our system. Oh and the added bonus is that Pierre wouldn't be around to block Pie. Pierre does not suck, but the price we paid is too high, especially considering that moving Pie to a corner OF spot severely diminishes his offensive value.

 

Murton is awesome. He won his spot fair and square. He has ridiculous plate discipline. Cedeno does not. Low batting average = low OBP for Cedeno. A younger Neifi. Sweet.

 

I could care less about Cedeno's age. It's his skill set as of this moment that should/should not give him a starting job on a 100M club. He's not the SS of the future. Maybe he'll be a viable utility player. The offense just isn't there (based on his whole pro career, not just one fluke year split between 3 leagues where no one had the time to learn his holes).

 

It may not be shocking to find out Cedeno suddenly learned to hit, but it's not something you gamble a starting role on a ballclub with, especially when your next option is Neifi Perez. I don't want Neifi out there. He should never sniff the starting SS role ever again, but b/c of poor offseason decisions, we're faced with that very real possibility.

[moorecg]

Does anyone else expect another fairly down year from Edmonds...I just don't expect him to be at his career numbers. He turns 36 in June...hit only .250 last year (Still great OBP) and had measurable drop offs in Power, RBI and BB #s last year. He'll still likely be the best out of the 6 or 7 we're talking about...But I don't think that its "completely" unrealistic to think that Murton could close a big part of the gap

 

One of my Cards friends and I were talking about him a couple of nights ago. He seems to think Jimmy will hit 320 with 35 HRs. I told him to expect 260 and maybe 20-25, so no, you are not alone. (By the way, he hit 263 last year)

 

My bad...my eyes read his 06 line when I quoted his batting average.

 

I think it is his contract year so that could play into it...but I just don't consider him to be on the upswing of his career.