"Young" guys - finally going in the right directio

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Willis?

 

LMAO. That only undermines the argument that the Cubs org. knows what pitchers to call up to the big league team with limited minor league innings (much less trade away).

 

I agree with your point about Marshall's lack of experience, I just found it funny that you didn't think of Dontrelle in your original post.

 

I don't really consider Willis to be a "Cubs minor leaguer" since he pitched all of 121 innings with us before being traded.

 

Willis also had a sub 1.50 ERA in his short stint in AA.

 

As opposed to his 66 IP in the Marlins system?

 

What?

 

2000 AZL: 28.0 IP

2001 Boise: 93.0 IP

 

trade from Cubs to Marlins (March 27, 2002)

 

2002 Kane County (A): 127.0

2002 Jupiter (A+): 30.0

2003 Carolina (AA): 36.0

 

Innings in the Marlins minor league system = 193.0

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Sean Marshall has more talent than Kerry Wood

 

Mark Prior was ML ready out of college. Darn near every scout in the country thought that.

 

Kerry Wood pitched 151 innings above A ball before being called up to Chicago.

 

Do you really think Marshall has more talent than Wood (at that point in his career)? You have to be kidding me.

 

You got me!!!

 

Do you really think that no pitcher should ever be promoted to the majors until they have at least 55 innings above A ball?

 

For certain pitchers the minors are a formality. Prior could have pitched in Chicago right after leaving USC. Woody probably should have spent more time in the minors working on mechanics (hindsight is 20/20).

 

Marshall doesn't come anywhere near Wood or Prior talent wise (or Willis). His current abilities don't merit a callup to the big league level either. He had a couple good outings in ST. Whoopdee do.

 

I'll hope for the best and love it if he succeeds in Chicago, but we have to be realistic. If Prior and Wood weren't DL magnets, Marshall wouldn't have sniffed the bigs until we were out of it, if at all.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Huston Street

 

 

nicely spotted.

 

He was also another pitcher (RP instead of SP, which accounts for some of the innings) ML ready out of college. He'd also logged 57.0 innings at U of Texas the same year he was in the minors, so he didn't need the work.

[Laura]

Huston Street

 

 

He was also another pitcher (RP instead of SP, which accounts for some of the innings) ML ready out of college. He'd also logged 57.0 innings at U of Texas the same year he was in the minors, so he didn't need the work.

 

 

You made up the rules, I just supplied an answer. Marshall did go to college.

 

Would you assign the MLB jobs based on IPs?

 

 

If only Wally Pipp had stayed healthy. :D

[Mizzou]

Huston Street

 

 

nicely spotted.

 

He was also another pitcher (RP instead of SP, which accounts for some of the innings) ML ready out of college. He'd also logged 57.0 innings at U of Texas the same year he was in the minors, so he didn't need the work.

Just out of curiosity, what makes a pitcher "ML ready out of college" in your opinion?

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Huston Street

 

 

He was also another pitcher (RP instead of SP, which accounts for some of the innings) ML ready out of college. He'd also logged 57.0 innings at U of Texas the same year he was in the minors, so he didn't need the work.

 

 

You made up the rules, I just supplied an answer. Marshall did go to college.

 

Would you assign the MLB jobs based on IPs?

 

 

If only Wally Pipp had stayed healthy. :D

 

I wouldn't assign jobs based on IPs. That kind of defeats the ML ready tag.

[Laura]

But it seems the thrust of what you were saying was that pitchers should be promoted at least partly based on experience, and you were measuring that experience by IPs, whether in college or minor league baseball. Is it a "stuff" argument instead? I don't think I'm getting your main point.

 

 

Regardless ... it's a good discussion ... and I really really need to sleep, but I don't want just duck out.

 

I can only hope that the Cubs mgt sees something that will work with Marshall over a few starts. Honestly, that's not a comfortable place for me to be, and I completely understand why it's not for others, either. They must have a lot of confidence in him if he's starting the Sunday night game ... that's quite the MLB debut.

 

I'll be glued to the game. Really hoping that -- if nothing else -- it'll be a good learning experience. And that it won't destroy him psychologically, like I've read at a few places COULD HAPPEN.

 

G'night, all. :)

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Huston Street

 

 

nicely spotted.

 

He was also another pitcher (RP instead of SP, which accounts for some of the innings) ML ready out of college. He'd also logged 57.0 innings at U of Texas the same year he was in the minors, so he didn't need the work.

Just out of curiosity, what makes a pitcher "ML ready out of college" in your opinion?

 

It's not really my opinion. It's the opinion of the majority of scouts. Numbers help too.

 

Prior was widely touted as ML ready out of college by every scout I've ever heard of.

 

Street was one of the best college closers of all time. That points toward ML readiness to me, but it's not conclusive. The numbers were there in college and the minors and Oakland loves those numbers. It's kind of a different system over there, so maybe "ML ready" shouldn't really apply to his case just b/c of the org. he is in and their promotion philosophy.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

But it seems the thrust of what you were saying was that pitchers should be promoted at least partly based on experience, and you were measuring that experience by IPs, whether in college or minor league baseball. Is it a "stuff" argument instead? I don't think I'm getting your main point.

 

 

Regardless ... it's a good discussion ... and I really really need to sleep, but I don't want just duck out.

 

I can only hope that the Cubs mgt sees something that will work with Marshall over a few starts. Honestly, that's not a comfortable place for me to be, and I completely understand why it's not for others, either. They must have a lot of confidence in him if he's starting the Sunday night game ... that's quite the MLB debut.

 

I'll be glued to the game. Really hoping that -- if nothing else -- it'll be a good learning experience. And that it won't destroy him psychologically, like I've read at a few places COULD HAPPEN.

 

G'night, all. :)

 

It's all dependent on the pitcher. Most of these guys are scouted by many organizations. When it's the super majority of scouts' opinions that someone is ML ready out of college, I'd go with that.

 

Promoting someone on stats alone is absurd. Oakland doesn't do that, no matter what Moneyball implies to some people.

 

IP is a great indicator of how resilient and healthy a pitcher is (assuming we're not comparing apples to oranges, RPs to SPs). I'm pretty sure Atlanta uses that very basic stat with a high degree of confidence and frequency, especially in regards to Smoltz and Glavine's latest contracts.

 

Scouts take all sorts of stuff, stats, stuff, makeup, potential, etc to determine whether someone is ML ready (or just evaluating a player in general). Subjective? Yes. But you can cut down on that by using multiple independent scouts. When they overwelmingly come back with the same opinion on readiness, go with it.

 

My distrust for Marshall's promotion has to do with our scouts and organization's success history in promoting pitchers. Prior was the only guy we promoted as quickly as Marshall (IP above A ball) that stuck. Everyone else had to do their time in the minors, working out issues as they progressed through the system.

 

I hope that our org. is finally right about this. History isn't with them, but for Marshall's sake (and ours), I hope he dominates. Prove me wrong. I'd love it.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Not sure about these random qualifications, but Marshall went to college (unlike Willis). He has plus control, which is one of the reasons he'll be better suited for a quicker ascent to the big leagues than, say, a Rich Hill.

[bc2k]

But it seems the thrust of what you were saying was that pitchers should be promoted at least partly based on experience, and you were measuring that experience by IPs, whether in college or minor league baseball. Is it a "stuff" argument instead? I don't think I'm getting your main point.

 

 

Regardless ... it's a good discussion ... and I really really need to sleep, but I don't want just duck out.

 

I can only hope that the Cubs mgt sees something that will work with Marshall over a few starts. Honestly, that's not a comfortable place for me to be, and I completely understand why it's not for others, either. They must have a lot of confidence in him if he's starting the Sunday night game ... that's quite the MLB debut.

 

I'll be glued to the game. Really hoping that -- if nothing else -- it'll be a good learning experience. And that it won't destroy him psychologically, like I've read at a few places COULD HAPPEN.

 

G'night, all. :)

 

It's all dependent on the pitcher. Most of these guys are scouted by many organizations. When it's the super majority of scouts' opinions that someone is ML ready out of college, I'd go with that.

 

Promoting someone on stats alone is absurd. Oakland doesn't do that, no matter what Moneyball implies to some people.

 

IP is a great indicator of how resilient and healthy a pitcher is (assuming we're not comparing apples to oranges, RPs to SPs). I'm pretty sure Atlanta uses that very basic stat with a high degree of confidence and frequency, especially in regards to Smoltz and Glavine's latest contracts.

 

Scouts take all sorts of stuff, stats, stuff, makeup, potential, etc to determine whether someone is ML ready (or just evaluating a player in general). Subjective? Yes. But you can cut down on that by using multiple independent scouts. When they overwelmingly come back with the same opinion on readiness, go with it.

 

My distrust for Marshall's promotion has to do with our scouts and organization's success history in promoting pitchers. Prior was the only guy we promoted as quickly as Marshall (IP above A ball) that stuck. Everyone else had to do their time in the minors, working out issues as they progressed through the system.

 

I hope that our org. is finally right about this. History isn't with them, but for Marshall's sake (and ours), I hope he dominates. Prove me wrong. I'd love it.

 

I see your points, but keep in mind that Marshall will only be in the Cubs rotation for the short term; he will not have a roster spot for more than 4-8 weeks.

 

I realize that even if he gets lit up, he may learn something up here that will make him a better pitcher in the future.

[SouthSideRyan]

I still have no clue what you're getting at regarding the Cubs history of promoting pitchers. The only guy who had as little experience in the minors as Marshall(that I can think of) was Prior. You act as if the Cubs every year promote some guy from Class A and he flops.

 

Nobody's had success from the Cubs(besides Prior) on this path because nobody else has taken it.

[NorthsideAvenger]

I see your points, but keep in mind that Marshall will only be in the Cubs rotation for the short term; he will not have a roster spot for more than 4-8 weeks.

 

That is a "what if" scenerion. Because "what if" Marshall is more then holding his own in the alloted team? Personally, I think Williams is a step out the door, and Rusch is a step closer to the pen, with Marshall making the club out of ST. I definately could see Marshall sticking with the Cubs, longer then the "short stint" some people think he has.

[A New Era]

I see your points, but keep in mind that Marshall will only be in the Cubs rotation for the short term; he will not have a roster spot for more than 4-8 weeks.

 

That is a "what if" scenerion. Because "what if" Marshall is more then holding his own in the alloted team? Personally, I think Williams is a step out the door, and Rusch is a step closer to the pen, with Marshall making the club out of ST. I definately could see Marshall sticking with the Cubs, longer then the "short stint" some people think he has.

 

I personally hope he does good and becomes a solid starter for us. Is that too much of a hope? He looks like he throws good stuff, and throws hard. A hard throwing LHP is not so common and something to covet. And dammit, he's tall!! His #1 asset is his confidence on the mound. Let's hope he can keep that in the majors.

 

If I had my dream it is that Marshall does great and Wood & Miller come back and dominate, making a rotation by ASB of. .

 

Zambrono

Wood

Miller

Maddux

Marshall

[soapy]

According to Sullivan , Baker will have Cedeno on a short leash. Why am I not surprised he's so anxious to get his boy Neifi in there?

[minnesotacubsfan]

According to Sullivan , Baker will have Cedeno on a short leash. Why am I not surprised he's so anxious to get his boy Neifi in there?

 

I read that too...GREAT...

 

 

hey, how fast is Marshalls fastball? what are his pitches? I hoenstly know little about the kid

[David]

I see your points, but keep in mind that Marshall will only be in the Cubs rotation for the short term; he will not have a roster spot for more than 4-8 weeks.

 

That is a "what if" scenerion. Because "what if" Marshall is more then holding his own in the alloted team? Personally, I think Williams is a step out the door, and Rusch is a step closer to the pen, with Marshall making the club out of ST. I definately could see Marshall sticking with the Cubs, longer then the "short stint" some people think he has.

 

I personally hope he does good and becomes a solid starter for us. Is that too much of a hope? He looks like he throws good stuff, and throws hard. A hard throwing LHP is not so common and something to covet. And dammit, he's tall!! His #1 asset is his confidence on the mound. Let's hope he can keep that in the majors.

 

If I had my dream it is that Marshall does great and Wood & Miller come back and dominate, making a rotation by ASB of. .

 

Zambrono

Wood

Miller

Maddux

Marshall

 

Yea...Let's just relegate our best or second best pitcher to the bullpen. :roll:

 

Prior isn't going to be gone past the ASB.

[rawaction]

According to Sullivan , Baker will have Cedeno on a short leash. Why am I not surprised he's so anxious to get his boy Neifi in there?

 

I read that too...GREAT...

 

 

hey, how fast is Marshalls fastball? what are his pitches? I hoenstly know little about the kid

 

Mostly throws a fastball 88-89, but can hit 92-93 if he needs to. Excellent curve. Throws a sweeper and a slow breaking curve. Change-up is a work in progress.

[Jehrico]

I see your points, but keep in mind that Marshall will only be in the Cubs rotation for the short term; he will not have a roster spot for more than 4-8 weeks.

 

That is a "what if" scenerion. Because "what if" Marshall is more then holding his own in the alloted team? Personally, I think Williams is a step out the door, and Rusch is a step closer to the pen, with Marshall making the club out of ST. I definately could see Marshall sticking with the Cubs, longer then the "short stint" some people think he has.

 

I personally hope he does good and becomes a solid starter for us. Is that too much of a hope? He looks like he throws good stuff, and throws hard. A hard throwing LHP is not so common and something to covet. And dammit, he's tall!! His #1 asset is his confidence on the mound. Let's hope he can keep that in the majors.

 

If I had my dream it is that Marshall does great and Wood & Miller come back and dominate, making a rotation by ASB of. .

 

Zambrono

Wood

Miller

Maddux

Marshall

 

A tought decision may have to be made sometime down the road. If Marshall is stellar to begin his rookie year, and Zambrano and Maddux do what they do, will they let all three of Wood, Prior, and Miller all come back at the same time? Or will they keep one on the DL to keep from working them too hard? I'm really hoping our hurt guys can put it all behind them this year. Next year, if we could have a healthy 1-5 of Prior, Zambrano, Wood, Miller, and Marshall....sweeeeeet....Then again, it could get tough again next year, as Guzman might pitch so well there' just no keeping him out of the rotation.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

I still have no clue what you're getting at regarding the Cubs history of promoting pitchers. The only guy who had as little experience in the minors as Marshall(that I can think of) was Prior. You act as if the Cubs every year promote some guy from Class A and he flops.

 

Nobody's had success from the Cubs(besides Prior) on this path because nobody else has taken it.

 

What starting pitchers have we promoted that stuck? Zambrano and Prior? Prior was a gimme out of college. We did great with Z.

 

Z spent his time in the minors. What pitcher have the Chicago Cubs promoted within the last 10 years (other than Prior) has been called up with so few innings above A ball? There is none. Our record with calling up pitchers in general with the work in is mediocre at best (Koronka, Mitre, Hill, Wellemeyer, etc). So why should any reasonable human being believe that our system has correctly evaluated Marshall as ML ready?

 

You can't tell how good someone is without seeing them pitch or putting up the numbers. To do that you have to log the innings.

[Backtobanks]

According to Sullivan , Baker will have Cedeno on a short leash. Why am I not surprised he's so anxious to get his boy Neifi in there?

 

I'm a big Cedeno fan, but let's be honest. Cedeno should have the starting job and be given every opportunity to continue in that role, but I don't think the Cubs' offense is strong enough to cover Cedeno if he continues hitting .200 for two more months. I am the first to criticize Baker, but Cedeno needs to prove he belongs as the starter at some point in the first month or so. Another problem is that it looks like Cedeno has carried his offensive woes out to the field with him. Poor hitting combined with poor defense will certainly put him on the bench. Let's just hope that Cedeno gets it together and that this discussion will be moot.

[Soul]

A youth movement is only a good thing if the young players perform.

[stuy119]

With Marshall earning a spot in the rotation, Cedeno and Murton starting, and Pagan and (perhaps) Theriot making the team, are we finally seeing this franchise go in the direction most have wished for, giving young and home-grown talent a chance to play? I think we are seeing a change in philosophy here, and I am very excited about it.

 

Thoughts?

 

I think we're finally seeing Jim Hendry take more of a "hands on" approach to the GM position. It's now going to work the way he sees fit, and he's going to stop enabling Dusty so much since Jim's job depends on how Dusty does on the field.

 

Just an opinion, but my guess is that Dusty doesn't return next year unless he plays the kids and wins.

[SouthSideRyan]

Our record with calling up pitchers in general with the work in is mediocre at best (Koronka, Mitre, Hill, Wellemeyer, etc). So why should any reasonable human being believe that our system has correctly evaluated Marshall as ML ready?

 

So what is your solution??? Never call up a pitcher since even when we give them innings in the minors they're still mediocre? You're all over the place here.

 

You can't tell how good someone is without seeing them pitch or putting up the numbers. To do that you have to log the innings.

 

Yeah, like Mitre, Koronka, Wellemeyer, etc.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

According to Sullivan , Baker will have Cedeno on a short leash. Why am I not surprised he's so anxious to get his boy Neifi in there?

 

I read that too...GREAT...

 

 

hey, how fast is Marshalls fastball? what are his pitches? I hoenstly know little about the kid

 

Mostly throws a fastball 88-89, but can hit 92-93 if he needs to. Excellent curve. Throws a sweeper and a slow breaking curve. Change-up is a work in progress.

 

From what I heard last season, the changeup is more than a work in progress.