Marshall as #4 starter?

[goonys evil twin]

Why is this organization obsessed with getting Williams out of the rotation?

 

Wait, where are you getting the idea this is the case?

[Wild_Cubs04]

Why is this organization obsessed with getting Williams out of the rotation?

 

Wait, where are you getting the idea this is the case?

 

Waaaaay off topic, but Goony...who is that lady in your sig?? :shock:

[soapy]

As others have indicated, Williams > Rusch. If you're going to bump anyone, bump Glendon.

[SeldomSeen]

As others have indicated, Williams > Rusch. If you're going to bump anyone, bump Glendon.

 

Unless there is a trade in the works involving Williams. I'm not saying it's likely or that I'd agree with it, but it is another possibility.

[Warpticon]

Dusty's talking up youngsters on XM today. He said that Marshall or Hill could be in the rotation when they go north. He mentioned Marshall first, though, if that means anything.

[SouthSideRyan]

Why is this organization obsessed with getting Williams out of the rotation?

 

Wait, where are you getting the idea this is the case?

 

Signing Rusch, the talks of acquring another starter all offseason long, the reluctance to put him in the rotation last year, the rumors of how expendable they viewed him all offseason. It's like they thought Aardsma was the key cog to the Hawkins deal.

[Fro]

Really good news, IMHO, just in the fact that finally we've got some guys fighting for rotation spots.

 

Starter depth isn't going to be a problem for much longer.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Really good news, IMHO, just in the fact that finally we've got some guys fighting for rotation spots.

 

Starter depth isn't going to be a problem.

 

Having Z, Maddux and a bunch of #5s filling out the rotation doesn't qualify as depth, IMO.

 

I'd love to have this problem with a healthy Prior and Wood (wouldn't we all).

[CubinNY]

Historically, the guys who did better in spring training were better in the majors at that particular point in time.

 

Data please?

[goonys evil twin]

Why is this organization obsessed with getting Williams out of the rotation?

 

Wait, where are you getting the idea this is the case?

 

Signing Rusch, the talks of acquring another starter all offseason long, the reluctance to put him in the rotation last year, the rumors of how expendable they viewed him all offseason. It's like they thought Aardsma was the key cog to the Hawkins deal.

 

I wouldn't say the Rusch signing means they are obsessed with getting Williams out of there. They like Glendon's versatility, much in the same way they liked Macias. They should have gotten another starter, and even if they did Williams could be in-line for a job. I just think they want him to keep going out there and earning a job. I believe they think he has somewhat of a motivation problem. Whereas they aren't concerned with Rusch letting up if he knows he has a job, they probably don't trust Williams to be a responsible guy if guaranteed a spot. But I think they really like him and plan on using him.

[TheDude]

Really good news, IMHO, just in the fact that finally we've got some guys fighting for rotation spots.

 

Starter depth isn't going to be a problem.

 

Having Z, Maddux and a bunch of #5s filling out the rotation doesn't qualify as depth, IMO.

 

Why are all the young guys fighting for a spot on the team #5s? It sounds like you're mixing quality and quantity. The Cubs do enter the season with pitching depth, though there is a qualitative drop from the depth we would have with a healthy Prior, Wood, and even Miller.

 

The real value to this youth depth is, if Marshall and/or Guzman show up in spot starts or temporary rotation duty and really dazzle, then the Cubs can re-enter mid-season talks for an impact bat like Tejada, Abreau, etc. with real trade value as opposed to fan perceived trade value.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Really good news, IMHO, just in the fact that finally we've got some guys fighting for rotation spots.

 

Starter depth isn't going to be a problem.

 

Having Z, Maddux and a bunch of #5s filling out the rotation doesn't qualify as depth, IMO.

 

Why are all the young guys fighting for a spot on the team #5s? It sounds like you're mixing quality and quantity. The Cubs do enter the season with pitching depth, though there is a qualitative drop from the depth we would have with a healthy Prior, Wood, and even Miller.

 

The real value to this youth depth is, if Marshall and/or Guzman show up in spot starts or temporary rotation duty and really dazzle, then the Cubs can re-enter mid-season talks for an impact bat like Tejada, Abreau, etc. with real trade value as opposed to fan perceived trade value.

 

They are #5s because they have little to no ML success. Don't confuse their ceilings/potential with their current abilities. They'll be good one game and get rocked the next until they adjust.

 

A bunch of minor leaguers don't qualify as ML rotation depth.

[minnesotacubsfan]

Really good news, IMHO, just in the fact that finally we've got some guys fighting for rotation spots.

 

Starter depth isn't going to be a problem.

 

Having Z, Maddux and a bunch of #5s filling out the rotation doesn't qualify as depth, IMO.

 

Why are all the young guys fighting for a spot on the team #5s? It sounds like you're mixing quality and quantity. The Cubs do enter the season with pitching depth, though there is a qualitative drop from the depth we would have with a healthy Prior, Wood, and even Miller.

 

The real value to this youth depth is, if Marshall and/or Guzman show up in spot starts or temporary rotation duty and really dazzle, then the Cubs can re-enter mid-season talks for an impact bat like Tejada, Abreau, etc. with real trade value as opposed to fan perceived trade value.

 

quantity IS a quality

[Outshined_One]

I have a couple of things to throw in there...

 

1) In spring training, a number of guys are not trying to be competitive or go all-out. With some pitchers, they might just be tossing pitches down the middle of the plate to build up arm strength. I think there is some credence to the idea that guys who are fighting for spots will try harder, but I don't think they're going to go out there and go all-out. That'd just kill them over the course of a long season.

 

2) Wasn't Dusty talking about starting off the season with a four man rotation thanks to the off days? What ever happened to that?

 

3) Since he pitched at VCU starting in 2001, Marshall has never thrown more than 100 innings in a season. The closest he ever got was 94 IP last season. His finger and shoulder injuries factored into this heavily, but I would be concerned for his endurance over the course of a season. He seems like a prime candidate for dead arm syndrome come July or August, assuming he stays healthy.

 

4) Guzman hasn't thrown more than 100 innings since 2002, when he combined for 150 IP between Lansing and Daytona. Since then, he's had a number of arm injuries holding him back. I'm not linking his arm injuries with his workload, but again, I worry about his endurance.

 

There's something to be said for having these guys last over the course of a season and not burning them out in a hurry. I'm not saying it would be unwise to have Guzman and Marshall 4-5 for this very reason, but perhaps it is something that should be taken into consideration considering their respective injury histories. If they're in the minors, no one would care if they were kept on pitch counts and didn't rack up many innings early in the season. The same can't really be said for games in the majors.

[goonys evil twin]

I have a couple of things to throw in there...

 

2) Wasn't Dusty talking about starting off the season with a four man rotation thanks to the off days? What ever happened to that?

 

3) Since he pitched at VCU starting in 2001, Marshall has never thrown more than 100 innings in a season.

 

4) Guzman hasn't thrown more than 100 innings since 2002, when he combined for 150 IP between Lansing and Daytona.

 

2) You can still start off with a 4 man rotation and 7 in the pen. The 5th starter would beging in the minors to get on schedule for his first start mid-month.

 

3 and 4) Neither of these guys necessarily has to pitch a full season in the majors. They could be used primarily in April and May. By May or June, the Cubs might have Wood, Prior, Miller, Zambrano and Maddux. These guys are assets that can be used in the short-term to help the team. In the longterm they can be handled in a way that allows for them to avoid late season dead arm syndrome and/or going much past realistic innings/games pitched parameters.

[RyCubsFan]

I have a couple of things to throw in there...

 

2) Wasn't Dusty talking about starting off the season with a four man rotation thanks to the off days? What ever happened to that?

 

3) Since he pitched at VCU starting in 2001, Marshall has never thrown more than 100 innings in a season.

 

4) Guzman hasn't thrown more than 100 innings since 2002, when he combined for 150 IP between Lansing and Daytona.

 

2) You can still start off with a 4 man rotation and 7 in the pen. The 5th starter would beging in the minors to get on schedule for his first start mid-month.

 

3 and 4) Neither of these guys necessarily has to pitch a full season in the majors. They could be used primarily in April and May. By May or June, the Cubs might have Wood, Prior, Miller, Zambrano and Maddux. These guys are assets that can be used in the short-term to help the team. In the longterm they can be handled in a way that allows for them to avoid late season dead arm syndrome and/or going much past realistic innings/games pitched parameters.

 

 

Both good posts. I like the points you made, Outshined, and also your way of handling overusing them, Gooney.

 

I'd consider starting the rotation like this:

 

Zambrano,

Guzman,

Maddux,

Marshall

 

1 ) Depending on Williams last 2 ST starts...he might need some time at Triple A to start the year. I"m not a big fan of ST numbers, but like Wuertz, he's not throwing the ball well. Whoever looks better b/n Williams and Hill gets the ball on April 15th as the 5th starter.

 

2) By seperating Guz and Marshall, you limit the risk of blow up starts two games in a row. It gives the bullpen a chance to rest. Rusch would be available in the pen as a longman. Ryu could also be in pen (if you send Novoa and Wuertz to Iowa).

 

3) We know what Rusch can and cannot do. I think it is the the longterm interest of the org. to see what Marshall and Guzman can do. With they way they are throwing the ball, I don't see much risk in it. That's why all things being equal, I send Rusch to the pen and start the kids.

 

4) As Gooney notes, when Wood, Miller, and Prior come back, Marshall and Guz can be rested.

[CubsMinorLeagueReport]

I find it interesting that the majority of you think that spring stats and performances dont matter, but you are ready to give Marshall that 5th Spot in the rotation. If we are throwing out spring stats, we probably shouldn't have Marshall in the conversation...No one entering this spring season would have guessed that Marshall would make a serious run at #5. He is probably not ready since he hasn't thrown a whole lot throughout his career, but he has performed admirably this spring, which has propelled him into a possible #5 starter. Spring stats do count for something.

[Jon]

Well, it wasn't just speculation:

cubs.com[/url]"]When spring camp opened, Williams was considered set for the Cubs starting rotation. The right-hander is 1-3 with an 8.00 ERA in five starts so far, and will close the team's Arizona schedule against Arizona at HoHoKam Park. The emergence of youngsters Sean Marshall and Rich Hill have made the Cubs re-think who will be in the rotation.

 

"You said it. It all depends on myself if I'm in the rotation or not," Williams said Tuesday.

 

Angel Guzman was in the mix, too, but because the right-hander has been sidelined with various injuries, the Cubs may decide he needs more game experience and assign him to Triple-A Iowa.

 

"Guzzie's missed a lot of time," Cubs manager Dusty Baker said Tuesday. "He's very, very close. You don't know if he's quite ready or not, but he's very close. We have to analyze that and make some decisions.

 

"Certain guys need to pitch, and Guzzie has missed part of three years almost," Baker said. "He has the stuff. It's just a question of should he serve a little more time in his apprenticeship."

 

Recently, Baker was asked if Marshall could make the jump to the fourth spot in the rotation, and the manager's response was that Marshall had to get to the fifth spot first. Now?

 

"It's a possibility," Baker said. "There are guys around the league who are his age and younger.

 

"If a young man throws strikes, they can win," Baker said. "There have been a number of young guys who came up and have done quite well, especially if they have the maturity and demeanor to handle it and do it. This is an opportunity for somebody to win a job."

 

Marshall, 23, has not allowed a run in his five games, including two starts. He's given up three hits, walked six and struck out nine over 10 1/3 innings, and will make his final spring start Friday in Las Vegas against San Diego.

 

Cubs general manager Jim Hendry also said he wouldn't rule out the possibility that Marshall, who pitched primarily at Class A Daytona last year, could be in the four-man rotation. The Cubs have been forced to shuffle the order with Mark Prior sidelined indefinitely with a strained muscle in his right shoulder.

 

"We're going to pitch the best people in the spots where we think make the most sense," Hendry said. "When you have guys who go down like we have and know that [Kerry Wood] and Wade Miller will be late, we're here to put the best people available at the time out there and win as many games as we can and not worry about who's coming back when."

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

That article really surprised me. OK, now I'm in the crowd wondering why Rusch isn't on the bubble too. Well, I guess he got that swanky contract. :roll:

 

Zambrano

Maddux

Rusch

Marshall

Hill

 

Oh lord.

Edited March 29, 2006 by Meat&PotatoesMan

[Blueheart05]

This is interesting news but it sounds more like Hendry has made up his mind about Marshall going north (per his XM interview). However, it also sounds like Jerome thinks he still has a chance to win the fourth spot.

[badger1679666666]

That article really surprised me. OK, now I'm in the crowd wondering why Rusch isn't on the bubble too. Well, I guess he got that swanky contract. :roll:

 

Zambrano

Maddux

Rusch

Marshall

Hill

 

Oh lord.

 

Rusch's last two starts were very good and good. I'm not a Rusch fan, necessarily but maybe he's coming around?

[Blueheart05]

If Marshall gets the 4th spot, Jerome will be the long reliever.

 

On Tuesday, the Cubs dealt reliever Todd Wellemeyer to Florida for two Minor League pitchers. The team doesn't have a designated long man for the bullpen yet and Baker said Williams could possibly fill that role.

 

"As long as I'm part of the team, that's all that matters," Williams said. "If I'm part of the team as a reliever, so be it. Starter, so be it. As long as I'm a part of it, that's all that matters."

 

Link

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

That article really surprised me. OK, now I'm in the crowd wondering why Rusch isn't on the bubble too. Well, I guess he got that swanky contract. :roll:

 

Zambrano

Maddux

Rusch

Marshall

Hill

 

Oh lord.

 

Rusch's last two starts were very good and good. I'm not a Rusch fan, necessarily but maybe he's coming around?

 

I thought so too, but if you look at his competition in that start against Seattle, he didn't face hardly any of their studs.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

If Marshall gets the 4th spot, Jerome will be the long reliever.

 

On Tuesday, the Cubs dealt reliever Todd Wellemeyer to Florida for two Minor League pitchers. The team doesn't have a designated long man for the bullpen yet and Baker said Williams could possibly fill that role.

 

"As long as I'm part of the team, that's all that matters," Williams said. "If I'm part of the team as a reliever, so be it. Starter, so be it. As long as I'm a part of it, that's all that matters."

 

Link

 

So Guzman/Hill gets the #5 spot (most likely Hill b/c of the injury issue)?

[rjchapma]

let marshall,guzman, and hill compete for number 5.