Grace: Sammy PROBABLY used roids

[NCCubFan]

so the guy was asked about sosa and roids, he didnt give sammy up, probably could have(if sammy was doing something)he basicaly said "i know nothing, but then again look" yeah his mouth is freaking huge

http://www.hogansheroes.org/gallery/trio3.jpg

I know nothing. NOTHING!

[CubbieRich]

Go in the 'way back machine' to a certain night in 1998 in St. Louis. The bloated BIG Red Yak has just rounded first base, after hitting # 62 in front of a packed ballpark, members of the Maris family and national tv audience. Here's Grace who believes Yak is a "red flag player" and is disgusted by it. Here is a chance for Grace to stand up and make a statement for all to see. Here is a chance for Grace to tell everyone that playing baseball the right way is the only way.

 

His high five to Yak said it all.

 

Sellout.

 

Coward.

[Derwood]

Dear Lord, not this s#!* again.

[Soul]

I'll add credibility to Grace's statements when he names the players who offered him steroids.

 

Why cast a shadow over Sammy, when you know there are other cheaters like the ones who offered you the juice, Mark.

 

Let's start with those guys first. That would be informative. After you tell us what you know, then you can offer some insightful speculation.

 

That's a good point.

[harrdb00]

I'll add credibility to Grace's statements when he names the players who offered him steroids.

 

Why cast a shadow over Sammy, when you know there are other cheaters like the ones who offered you the juice, Mark.

 

Let's start with those guys first. That would be informative. After you tell us what you know, then you can offer some insightful speculation.

 

That's a good point.

 

If Grace named names he would be getting killled for being a sellout. either way he can't win. Maybe it would be better if he pretended he couldn't speak English like Sammy?

 

Fact is Grace was a good teammate. He always showed up to training camp on time, and was good in the clubhouse. He never cheated. And I don't remember anyone smashing his boombox.

 

It is amazing how people overlook Sammy's obvious transgressions, but flip out at Grace because he speaks his mind. I just don't get it.

[rocket]

I'll add credibility to Grace's statements when he names the players who offered him steroids.

 

Why cast a shadow over Sammy, when you know there are other cheaters like the ones who offered you the juice, Mark.

 

Let's start with those guys first. That would be informative. After you tell us what you know, then you can offer some insightful speculation.

 

That's a good point.

 

If Grace named names he would be getting killled for being a sellout. either way he can't win. Maybe it would be better if he pretended he couldn't speak English like Sammy?

 

Fact is Grace was a good teammate. He always showed up to training camp on time, and was good in the clubhouse. He never cheated. And I don't remember anyone smashing his boombox.

 

It is amazing how people overlook Sammy's obvious transgressions, but flip out at Grace because he speaks his mind. I just don't get it.

 

How do you know he never cheated? How do you know he was good in the clubhouse? And I don't really see anyone overlooking Sammy's transgressions.

 

It's obvious Grace likes his name in the paper, it's obvious he hates and is jealous of Sammy. He knew implying Sammy took steroids would get him in the paper. He's a douche.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I'll add credibility to Grace's statements when he names the players who offered him steroids.

 

Why cast a shadow over Sammy, when you know there are other cheaters like the ones who offered you the juice, Mark.

 

Let's start with those guys first. That would be informative. After you tell us what you know, then you can offer some insightful speculation.

 

That's a good point.

 

If Grace named names he would be getting killled for being a sellout. either way he can't win. Maybe it would be better if he pretended he couldn't speak English like Sammy?

 

Fact is Grace was a good teammate. He always showed up to training camp on time, and was good in the clubhouse. He never cheated. And I don't remember anyone smashing his boombox.

 

It is amazing how people overlook Sammy's obvious transgressions, but flip out at Grace because he speaks his mind. I just don't get it.

 

Maybe he should just offer a "no comment" when he doesn't have first hand knowlede.

 

My problem is that Grace is using his status as a former teammate to lend credibility to accusations against Sosa. By using the back-door to make guess on Sammy, people give it more credence because they assume a former teammate would know. But it's clear that Grace knew nothing of the sort when dealing with Sosa. He's guessing like the rest of us.

 

On the other hand, if Grace was offered steroids and saw others use them as he claimed, that is note worthy. So, you excuse him for not selling out those, yet he still is throwing mud at a teammate he just didn't like. There's nothing noble in that. In fact, it's pretty gutless.

 

Before Grace speculates, why not be a man and tell us the truth about what you do know.

 

Furthermore, Grace (and I always liked Grace) can run his mouth and he's colorful, but yet people say Walker has a bad attitude for doing the same thing?

[SouthSideRyan]

Fact is Grace was a good teammate.

 

:lol:

[Monco]

The question puts Grace in a tough spot.Hes been offered and has seen it.But he don't want to name names.No comment would have led to speculation also.I've read alot of people defend Sammy saying its not been proven.While its not been proven,how many people out there really believe Sammy has never done steroids?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The question puts Grace in a tough spot.Hes been offered and has seen it.But he don't want to name names.No comment would have led to speculation also.I've read alot of people defend Sammy saying its not been proven.While its not been proven,how many people out there really believe Sammy has never done steroids?

 

Then if Grace wan't to be vague and not name the guys he knew used, he should have shown the same discretion when asked about Sammy who he has no proof used.

[Chocolate Milk]

Then if Grace wan't to be vague and not name the guys he knew used, he should have shown the same discretion when asked about Sammy who he has no proof used.

 

He did. He said he was suspicious but there was no proof. He didn't accuse Sammy of anything nor did he say that Sammy was on steroids. He answered a direct question that was posed to him about Sammy. He didn't go out of his way to bash Sammy.

 

He answered that question the same way 99% of baseball fans would have answered it. The only people who don't have any suspicious that Sammy used are Cubs homers.

 

I'm not sure what you guys want out of Grace and it's pretty clear that most people here are giving Grace a hard time because of their personal feelings about him.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Then if Grace wan't to be vague and not name the guys he knew used, he should have shown the same discretion when asked about Sammy who he has no proof used.

 

He did. He said he was suspicious but there was no proof. He didn't accuse Sammy of anything nor did he say that Sammy was on steroids. He answered a direct question that was posed to him about Sammy. He didn't go out of his way to bash Sammy.

 

He answered that question the same way 99% of baseball fans would have answered it. The only people who don't have any suspicious that Sammy used are Cubs homers.

 

I'm not sure what you guys want out of Grace and it's pretty clear that most people here are giving Grace a hard time because of their personal feelings about him.

 

No he did more than that. He made some major implications that Sammy used steroids, especially when he said he wouldn't vote for Sammy into the HOF. The only way you don't do that is if you think he's on the juice.

 

It appears that Grace is trying to pile it on while avoiding the issue he should answer. Grace obviously knows who some users are. Why not give us the real info?

[Chocolate Milk]

Then if Grace wan't to be vague and not name the guys he knew used, he should have shown the same discretion when asked about Sammy who he has no proof used.

 

He did. He said he was suspicious but there was no proof. He didn't accuse Sammy of anything nor did he say that Sammy was on steroids. He answered a direct question that was posed to him about Sammy. He didn't go out of his way to bash Sammy.

 

He answered that question the same way 99% of baseball fans would have answered it. The only people who don't have any suspicious that Sammy used are Cubs homers.

 

I'm not sure what you guys want out of Grace and it's pretty clear that most people here are giving Grace a hard time because of their personal feelings about him.

 

No he did more than that. He made some major implications that Sammy used steroids, especially when he said he wouldn't vote for Sammy into the HOF. The only way you don't do that is if you think he's on the juice.

 

It appears that Grace is trying to pile it on while avoiding the issue he should answer. Grace obviously knows who some users are. Why not give us the real info?

 

Considering the fact he didn't out any player in that interview, I don't know why you think he should have to out players in order to say that he is suspicious of Sammy.

 

In regards to the HOF, he probably is suspicious enough to not vote him in. He gave his honest answer. Maybe he thinks that being caught with a corked bat should keep you out of the Hall. He never says that Sammy is a user.

 

Why are you ascribing all of these ulterior motives to Grace's interview and the subsequent printing of his answers? How was he "piling on" when asked specifically about Sosa?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Then if Grace wan't to be vague and not name the guys he knew used, he should have shown the same discretion when asked about Sammy who he has no proof used.

 

He did. He said he was suspicious but there was no proof. He didn't accuse Sammy of anything nor did he say that Sammy was on steroids. He answered a direct question that was posed to him about Sammy. He didn't go out of his way to bash Sammy.

 

He answered that question the same way 99% of baseball fans would have answered it. The only people who don't have any suspicious that Sammy used are Cubs homers.

 

I'm not sure what you guys want out of Grace and it's pretty clear that most people here are giving Grace a hard time because of their personal feelings about him.

 

No he did more than that. He made some major implications that Sammy used steroids, especially when he said he wouldn't vote for Sammy into the HOF. The only way you don't do that is if you think he's on the juice.

 

It appears that Grace is trying to pile it on while avoiding the issue he should answer. Grace obviously knows who some users are. Why not give us the real info?

 

Considering the fact he didn't out any player in that interview, I don't know why you think he should have to out players in order to say that he is suspicious of Sammy.

 

In regards to the HOF, he probably is suspicious enough to not vote him in. He gave his honest answer. Maybe he thinks that being caught with a corked bat should keep you out of the Hall. He never says that Sammy is a user.

 

Why are you ascribing all of these ulterior motives to Grace's interview and the subsequent printing of his answers? How was he "piling on" when asked specifically about Sosa?

 

Why not share his "suspicions" of other players? I would think someone offering me steroids would also make me suspicious.

[Mark_R]

 

Why not share his "suspicions" of other players? I would think someone offering me steroids would also make me suspicious.

 

Isn't it easier to have suspicions of people you see everyday? There's a lot of people who won't vote for both Sammy and Big Mac for the HOF BASED ON SUSPICION.

[Chocolate Milk]

Then if Grace wan't to be vague and not name the guys he knew used, he should have shown the same discretion when asked about Sammy who he has no proof used.

 

He did. He said he was suspicious but there was no proof. He didn't accuse Sammy of anything nor did he say that Sammy was on steroids. He answered a direct question that was posed to him about Sammy. He didn't go out of his way to bash Sammy.

 

He answered that question the same way 99% of baseball fans would have answered it. The only people who don't have any suspicious that Sammy used are Cubs homers.

 

I'm not sure what you guys want out of Grace and it's pretty clear that most people here are giving Grace a hard time because of their personal feelings about him.

 

No he did more than that. He made some major implications that Sammy used steroids, especially when he said he wouldn't vote for Sammy into the HOF. The only way you don't do that is if you think he's on the juice.

 

It appears that Grace is trying to pile it on while avoiding the issue he should answer. Grace obviously knows who some users are. Why not give us the real info?

 

Considering the fact he didn't out any player in that interview, I don't know why you think he should have to out players in order to say that he is suspicious of Sammy.

 

In regards to the HOF, he probably is suspicious enough to not vote him in. He gave his honest answer. Maybe he thinks that being caught with a corked bat should keep you out of the Hall. He never says that Sammy is a user.

 

Why are you ascribing all of these ulterior motives to Grace's interview and the subsequent printing of his answers? How was he "piling on" when asked specifically about Sosa?

 

Why not share his "suspicions" of other players? I would think someone offering me steroids would also make me suspicious.

 

Maybe because he wasn't asked about them? Maybe he did but they weren't included in the published article? Maybe he doesn't want to call out people who don't already have massive speculation swirling about them?

 

In other words, who cares? His comments were fairly PG and in line with the rest of America's view on Sammy. If you don't like the exposure, then blame the Sun-Times for publishing something so mundane and disinteresting. Grace doesn't control what is published in the Sun Times, he doesn't control the questions he's asked on interviews, and he didn't say anything particularly startling about Sosa. All of the comments like: "he was piling on" "He likes his name in the paper" "He was fueled by jealousy" etc etc are nothing more than groundless speculation.

 

The Grace bashing, in regards to these comments, is petty and silly.

[FergieJ31]

The Grace bashing, in regards to these comments, is petty and silly.

 

I agree - the Grace bashing is getting silly. If he was as petty and jealous of Sammy as some have said, I'd have expected him to have made far more incriminating things about Sammy by now. Sammy is a very easy target since his recent downfall. What Grace said in that article was actually pretty tame and plain common-sense.

 

It is almost impossible to believe Sammy didn't use some enhancement (HGH, roids or whatever), and it seems likely that Julian Martinez was the only witness/accomplice.

[CubinNY]

It is almost impossible to believe Sammy didn't use some enhancement (HGH, roids or whatever), and it seems likely that Julian Martinez was the only witness/accomplice.

 

Why?

[Monco]

It is almost impossible to believe Sammy didn't use some enhancement (HGH, roids or whatever), and it seems likely that Julian Martinez was the only witness/accomplice.

 

Why?

Because he was Sammys "personal trainer".

[CubinNY]

It is almost impossible to believe Sammy didn't use some enhancement (HGH, roids or whatever), and it seems likely that Julian Martinez was the only witness/accomplice.

 

Why?

Because he was Sammys "personal trainer".

 

No, why is it almost impossible to believe that Sammy was jucing?

 

Lot's of MLB players have personal trainers.

[Soul]

I'll add credibility to Grace's statements when he names the players who offered him steroids.

 

Why cast a shadow over Sammy, when you know there are other cheaters like the ones who offered you the juice, Mark.

 

Let's start with those guys first. That would be informative. After you tell us what you know, then you can offer some insightful speculation.

 

That's a good point.

 

If Grace named names he would be getting killled for being a sellout. either way he can't win. Maybe it would be better if he pretended he couldn't speak English like Sammy?

 

.......or how about he just keep his mouth shut instead? Wow, there's a novel idea.

 

I just don't get it.

 

Agreed.

Edited March 25, 2006 by Soul

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

No. The facts remain. There is nothing but speculative evidence that Sosa used anything.

 

He's never failed a test. He's never been caught with steroids or HGH or anything. He's never been seen juicing or caught with anything suspicious.

 

The only case against Sosa is that he got larger and hit a bunch of HR's.

 

As has been shown, his HR totals seem to follow the typical career arch of a power hitter.

 

Does this mean Sosa is clean? By no means. Does his size gain raise suspicions? Surely. But the fact is, that against Sosa, there is very weak evidence at best.

[FergieJ31]

It is almost impossible to believe Sammy didn't use some enhancement (HGH, roids or whatever), and it seems likely that Julian Martinez was the only witness/accomplice.

 

Why?

 

Let me preface my answer by saying (a) I'm not a Sammy-basher and never have been, and (b) my reasons have been debated here ad nauseaum ... I don't have much to add because I'm just a normal long-time Cub fan, like you, probably, and many others here on NSBB. I do not have any inside info.

 

Why do I think he took something? It's not just his Chico Ensuela act in front of Congress ... it's not just the fact that he's a known cheater (too bad he didn't know that cork is at best a psychological advantage) ... it's not just the astonishing spurt in his HR rate ... it's not just the fact that the power surge happened to coincide with others who are under heavy suspicion, Bonds, Giambi, McGwire, etc. ... it's not just the dramatic change in his appearance (including quite a bit of acne) by '98 ... it's not just that in 2001 he hit 64 HR and didn't steal a single base (going from a 30-30 guy to a 64-0 guy is going to justifiably raise a few eyebrows) ... it's not any of the above in isolation, it's the whole thing. I want to believe that no Barry-asterisk belongs in front of any of Sammy's monster years, but at some point as circumstantial evidence piles up it becomes awfully compelling.

 

What follows is pure speculation on my part -- just observations of how Sammy evolved over time in the 90's. Please don't ask for documentation, web links, etc. because all I have is my memory. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong on the facts I'm sure.

 

I've followed Sammy's career since he was a skinny kid with the White Sox. I believe he legitimately turned himself into a power hitter, and a very good one, without any artificial help. In '96 he was leading the NL in HRs when he was beaned in late August by a nobody named Mark Hutton (who had no idea where the ball was going that day). Just like the Torres beaning in '04, Sammy wasn't the same when he returned -- and he also stumbled out of the gate in '97 (of course he wasn't the only Cub to stumble out of the gate in '97). Now Sammy also had contract extension negotiations in '97, and also happened to start showing the prodigious power stroke to the opposite field later that year (prior to that he had been a predominantly classic pull HR hitter). He also was visibly bulking up later that year -- perhaps someone else can back me up on that observation. All coincidental? Sure, it's possible. Probable? Doubtful.

 

I really think '97 was the year he started using something, mid-season -- not the '97-'98 off-season as is commonly assumed. Again, pure conjecture on my part, I admit.

[CubinNY]

 

Sammy's HR totals from 1993-2003

93  33
94  25 (Strike year)
95  36
96  40
97  36 (hurt, on pace for 40-50)
98  66 (McGuire chase, Maris and Mantle had a similar chase in 61 with each having career years in HRs)
99  63
00  50
01  64
02  49
03  40

 

To me that looks like a typical career arc for a power hitter. 2001 actually markes the down slope of that arc.

 

What astonishing HR spurt are you talking about?

[FergieJ31]

 

Sammy's HR totals from 1993-2003

93  33
94  25 (Strike year)
95  36
96  40
[b]97  36 (hurt, on pace for 40-50)[/b]
98  66 (McGuire chase, Maris and Mantle had a similar chase in 61 with each having career years in HRs)
99  63
00  50
01  64
02  49
03  40

 

To me that looks like a typical career arc for a power hitter. 2001 actually markes the down slope of that arc.

 

What astonishing HR spurt are you talking about?

 

No, he was hurt in '96, not '97. In '97 he played in 162 games.

 

Prior to 93 his AB/HR rate was over 30. He legitimately turned himself into a power hitter between 93 and 97, averaging about 16-17 AB/HR, with a down year in 97, almost 18 AB/HR.

 

In 98-99 his AB/HR dropped below 10. He nearly doubled the rate he was hitting HR's vs 97. I'm sorry that IS an astonishing HR spurt.