well, clines doesn't get it

[abuck1220]

In Gene Clines' first season as the Cubs' hitting coach, they led the National League with 1,506 hits. That was tempered, though, by finishing ninth in runs scored and RBI.

 

"It was a good year in a way,'' Clines said, "but the thing that made it look so bad was not hitting with two out and leaving a ton of guys on base in scoring position. That was the biggest downfall. We did a lot of hitting, but not like we should have in clutch situations.''

 

yeah, that was the problem. these guys really can't be that oblivious to walks, can they?

[USSoccer]

In Gene Clines' first season as the Cubs' hitting coach, they led the National League with 1,506 hits. That was tempered, though, by finishing ninth in runs scored and RBI.

 

"It was a good year in a way,'' Clines said, "but the thing that made it look so bad was not hitting with two out and leaving a ton of guys on base in scoring position. That was the biggest downfall. We did a lot of hitting, but not like we should have in clutch situations.''

 

yeah, that was the problem. these guys really can't be that oblivious to walks, can they?

 

You know the answer to that.

[Jon]

If Clines doesn't watch it, Hendry will demote his title back to base coach and reinstate Sarge as hitting coach. Not that there's much of a difference in responsibilities or pay...

 

Let's just hope having Pierre on the team will keep him from negatively changing Pie's approach at the plate.

[CubsWin]

In Gene Clines' first season as the Cubs' hitting coach, they led the National League with 1,506 hits. That was tempered, though, by finishing ninth in runs scored and RBI.

 

"It was a good year in a way,'' Clines said, "but the thing that made it look so bad was not hitting with two out and leaving a ton of guys on base in scoring position. That was the biggest downfall. We did a lot of hitting, but not like we should have in clutch situations.''

 

yeah, that was the problem. these guys really can't be that oblivious to walks, can they?

 

You know the answer to that.

I've heard or read very little that says the Cubs coaching staff recognizes the value of a walk. I don't think it would shock a lot of people if we characterized the Cubs current set of coaches and manager as "old school", when batting average was the stat that measured a successful hitter.

 

However, there is plenty of evidence that Hendry recognizes the value of OBP given that he has acquired Nomar, Ramirez, Lee, Grudz/Walker/Hairston, Murton, Pierre, Miller/Barrett and promoted Dubois who all have higher OBPs than their predecessors. Jones does not, but it is clear that Jacque was not Hendry's first choice to play RF this season.

 

Why he has stuck with Baker who is responsible for hiring his coaching staff, I don't know.

[Brian]

here's to Von Joshua coming up to MLB next year.... please?

[erik316wttn]

Well, clutch hitting WAS a big issue last year, I'll grant him that.

[David]

In Gene Clines' first season as the Cubs' hitting coach, they led the National League with 1,506 hits. That was tempered, though, by finishing ninth in runs scored and RBI.

 

"It was a good year in a way,'' Clines said, "but the thing that made it look so bad was not hitting with two out and leaving a ton of guys on base in scoring position. That was the biggest downfall. We did a lot of hitting, but not like we should have in clutch situations.''

 

yeah, that was the problem. these guys really can't be that oblivious to walks, can they?

 

You know the answer to that.

I've heard or read very little that says the Cubs coaching staff recognizes the value of a walk. I don't think it would shock a lot of people if we characterized the Cubs current set of coaches and manager as "old school", when batting average was the stat that measured a successful hitter.

 

However, there is plenty of evidence that Hendry recognizes the value of OBP given that he has acquired Nomar, Ramirez, Lee, Grudz/Walker/Hairston, Murton, Pierre, Miller/Barrett and promoted Dubois who all have higher OBPs than their predecessors. Jones does not, but it is clear that Jacque was not Hendry's first choice to play RF this season.

 

Why he has stuck with Baker who is responsible for hiring his coaching staff, I don't know.

 

I'm not sure that's exactly a great list of hitters that anyone would classify as "patient." Now, Aramis and Nomar have been good enough hitters that they make up for their lack of patience..but of his acquisitions, none has impressed me very much in this regard. Maybe Lawton.

[nilodnayr]

In Gene Clines' first season as the Cubs' hitting coach, they led the National League with 1,506 hits. That was tempered, though, by finishing ninth in runs scored and RBI.

 

"It was a good year in a way,'' Clines said, "but the thing that made it look so bad was not hitting with two out and leaving a ton of guys on base in scoring position. That was the biggest downfall. We did a lot of hitting, but not like we should have in clutch situations.''

 

yeah, that was the problem. these guys really can't be that oblivious to walks, can they?

 

You know the answer to that.

I've heard or read very little that says the Cubs coaching staff recognizes the value of a walk. I don't think it would shock a lot of people if we characterized the Cubs current set of coaches and manager as "old school", when batting average was the stat that measured a successful hitter.

 

However, there is plenty of evidence that Hendry recognizes the value of OBP given that he has acquired Nomar, Ramirez, Lee, Grudz/Walker/Hairston, Murton, Pierre, Miller/Barrett and promoted Dubois who all have higher OBPs than their predecessors. Jones does not, but it is clear that Jacque was not Hendry's first choice to play RF this season.

 

Why he has stuck with Baker who is responsible for hiring his coaching staff, I don't know.

 

I wouldnt necessarily say that Hendry's acquisitions are perfect evidence that Hendry recognizes the value of OBP. No one who appropriately values OBP would call Juan Pierre the greatest leadoff man in the game. OBP may not be the sole reason why Hendry has acquired those players. Theres pleny of evidence to show the contrary as well. I think Hendry acknowledges the existance of OBP, and in comparison to the coaching staff recognizes the value, but in the grand scheme of things he does not come close to recognizing the real value of OBP. Ohh and by those old school metrics, with men in scoring position we had a better batting average than the reds...I wonder how they scored 88 more runs than us (w/men in scoring position).

[USSoccer]

In Gene Clines' first season as the Cubs' hitting coach, they led the National League with 1,506 hits. That was tempered, though, by finishing ninth in runs scored and RBI.

 

"It was a good year in a way,'' Clines said, "but the thing that made it look so bad was not hitting with two out and leaving a ton of guys on base in scoring position. That was the biggest downfall. We did a lot of hitting, but not like we should have in clutch situations.''

 

yeah, that was the problem. these guys really can't be that oblivious to walks, can they?

 

You know the answer to that.

I've heard or read very little that says the Cubs coaching staff recognizes the value of a walk. I don't think it would shock a lot of people if we characterized the Cubs current set of coaches and manager as "old school", when batting average was the stat that measured a successful hitter.

 

However, there is plenty of evidence that Hendry recognizes the value of OBP given that he has acquired Nomar, Ramirez, Lee, Grudz/Walker/Hairston, Murton, Pierre, Miller/Barrett and promoted Dubois who all have higher OBPs than their predecessors. Jones does not, but it is clear that Jacque was not Hendry's first choice to play RF this season.

 

Why he has stuck with Baker who is responsible for hiring his coaching staff, I don't know.

 

I'm not sure that's exactly a great list of hitters that anyone would classify as "patient." Now, Aramis and Nomar have been good enough hitters that they make up for their lack of patience..but of his acquisitions, none has impressed me very much in this regard. Maybe Lawton.

 

Ramirez is pretty patient.

[treebird]

Ramirez is pretty patient.

 

2005 NL average walk rate = .0845

2005 Aramis Ramirez walk rate = .0694

[CubsWin]

In Gene Clines' first season as the Cubs' hitting coach, they led the National League with 1,506 hits. That was tempered, though, by finishing ninth in runs scored and RBI.

 

"It was a good year in a way,'' Clines said, "but the thing that made it look so bad was not hitting with two out and leaving a ton of guys on base in scoring position. That was the biggest downfall. We did a lot of hitting, but not like we should have in clutch situations.''

 

yeah, that was the problem. these guys really can't be that oblivious to walks, can they?

 

You know the answer to that.

I've heard or read very little that says the Cubs coaching staff recognizes the value of a walk. I don't think it would shock a lot of people if we characterized the Cubs current set of coaches and manager as "old school", when batting average was the stat that measured a successful hitter.

 

However, there is plenty of evidence that Hendry recognizes the value of OBP given that he has acquired Nomar, Ramirez, Lee, Grudz/Walker/Hairston, Murton, Pierre, Miller/Barrett and promoted Dubois who all have higher OBPs than their predecessors. Jones does not, but it is clear that Jacque was not Hendry's first choice to play RF this season.

 

Why he has stuck with Baker who is responsible for hiring his coaching staff, I don't know.

 

I wouldnt necessarily say that Hendry's acquisitions are perfect evidence that Hendry recognizes the value of OBP.

Nor would I, just evidence. To be honest, I don't even know what perfect evidence means.

[nilodnayr]

In Gene Clines' first season as the Cubs' hitting coach, they led the National League with 1,506 hits. That was tempered, though, by finishing ninth in runs scored and RBI.

 

"It was a good year in a way,'' Clines said, "but the thing that made it look so bad was not hitting with two out and leaving a ton of guys on base in scoring position. That was the biggest downfall. We did a lot of hitting, but not like we should have in clutch situations.''

 

yeah, that was the problem. these guys really can't be that oblivious to walks, can they?

 

You know the answer to that.

I've heard or read very little that says the Cubs coaching staff recognizes the value of a walk. I don't think it would shock a lot of people if we characterized the Cubs current set of coaches and manager as "old school", when batting average was the stat that measured a successful hitter.

 

However, there is plenty of evidence that Hendry recognizes the value of OBP given that he has acquired Nomar, Ramirez, Lee, Grudz/Walker/Hairston, Murton, Pierre, Miller/Barrett and promoted Dubois who all have higher OBPs than their predecessors. Jones does not, but it is clear that Jacque was not Hendry's first choice to play RF this season.

 

Why he has stuck with Baker who is responsible for hiring his coaching staff, I don't know.

 

I wouldnt necessarily say that Hendry's acquisitions are perfect evidence that Hendry recognizes the value of OBP.

Nor would I, just evidence. To be honest, I don't even know what perfect evidence means.

 

I guess by perfect I meant substantial or conclusive.

[rocket]

In Clines' defenseThe Cubs did suck with RISP last season, and it's a reason why they didn't score that many runs. but that's hard to improve, it's mostly luck.

 

Walks, on the other hand, are easier to improve. And should have been a focus during Hendry's offseason.

[ltb]

here's to Von Joshua coming up to MLB next year.... please?

 

i hope so.

[erik316wttn]

In Clines' defenseThe Cubs did suck with RISP last season, and it's a reason why they didn't score that many runs. but that's hard to improve, it's mostly luck.

 

Walks, on the other hand, are easier to improve. And should have been a focus during Hendry's offseason.

 

It's not that hard to improve on what we did last year, Rocket.

 

Do you remember the countless AB's where there were RISP, and whoever was up there would get anxious and swing at the first pitch and hit into a double play? All the friggin time?

[rocket]

In Clines' defenseThe Cubs did suck with RISP last season, and it's a reason why they didn't score that many runs. but that's hard to improve, it's mostly luck.

 

Walks, on the other hand, are easier to improve. And should have been a focus during Hendry's offseason.

 

It's not that hard to improve on what we did last year, Rocket.

 

Do you remember the countless AB's where there were RISP, and whoever was up there would get anxious and swing at the first pitch and hit into a double play? All the friggin time?

 

i don't think getting jacque jones is the way to remedy that

[erik316wttn]

In Clines' defenseThe Cubs did suck with RISP last season, and it's a reason why they didn't score that many runs. but that's hard to improve, it's mostly luck.

 

Walks, on the other hand, are easier to improve. And should have been a focus during Hendry's offseason.

 

It's not that hard to improve on what we did last year, Rocket.

 

Do you remember the countless AB's where there were RISP, and whoever was up there would get anxious and swing at the first pitch and hit into a double play? All the friggin time?

 

i don't think getting jacque jones is the way to remedy that

 

Nor do I. But you said that clutch hitting was mainly luck. My point was had we been more patient at those times last year, we'd have scored more runs.

[treebird]

In Clines' defenseThe Cubs did suck with RISP last season, and it's a reason why they didn't score that many runs. but that's hard to improve, it's mostly luck.

 

Walks, on the other hand, are easier to improve. And should have been a focus during Hendry's offseason.

 

It's not that hard to improve on what we did last year, Rocket.

 

Do you remember the countless AB's where there were RISP, and whoever was up there would get anxious and swing at the first pitch and hit into a double play? All the friggin time?

 

i don't think getting jacque jones is the way to remedy that

 

Nor do I. But you said that clutch hitting was mainly luck. My point was had we been more patient at those times last year, we'd have scored more runs.

 

if we'd been more patient at all times, we'd have scored more runs

[nilodnayr]

In Clines' defenseThe Cubs did suck with RISP last season, and it's a reason why they didn't score that many runs. but that's hard to improve, it's mostly luck.

 

Walks, on the other hand, are easier to improve. And should have been a focus during Hendry's offseason.

 

It's not that hard to improve on what we did last year, Rocket.

 

Do you remember the countless AB's where there were RISP, and whoever was up there would get anxious and swing at the first pitch and hit into a double play? All the friggin time?

 

Well the cubs hit into 55 GIDPs with runners in scoring position, the high was 61, the low was 35, median was 48. The ABs are fairly similar, I bet if you do a regression you will not find a significant correlation between GIDP/PA and runs scored with men in scoring position. Pretty much most teams GIDP about 3-4% of their PA. However, the affect on creating big innings is definitely understated based on just those stats. But my point is that you probably remember it a lot more than the actual stats show.

[USSoccer]

Ramirez is pretty patient.

 

2005 NL average walk rate = .0845

2005 Aramis Ramirez walk rate = .0694

 

Do those numbers hold steady over the last 3 seasons? I know Aramis doesn't strike all that often....

[soapy]

In Gene Clines' first season as the Cubs' hitting coach, they led the National League with 1,506 hits. That was tempered, though, by finishing ninth in runs scored and RBI.

 

"It was a good year in a way,'' Clines said, "but the thing that made it look so bad was not hitting with two out and leaving a ton of guys on base in scoring position. That was the biggest downfall. We did a lot of hitting, but not like we should have in clutch situations.''

 

yeah, that was the problem. these guys really can't be that oblivious to walks, can they?

 

](*,)

[soapy]

In Clines' defenseThe Cubs did suck with RISP last season, and it's a reason why they didn't score that many runs. but that's hard to improve, it's mostly luck.

 

Walks, on the other hand, are easier to improve. And should have been a focus during Hendry's offseason.

 

It's not that hard to improve on what we did last year, Rocket.

 

Do you remember the countless AB's where there were RISP, and whoever was up there would get anxious and swing at the first pitch and hit into a double play? All the friggin time?

 

i don't think getting jacque jones is the way to remedy that

 

Nor do I. But you said that clutch hitting was mainly luck. My point was had we been more patient at those times last year, we'd have scored more runs.

 

"Luck" might not be the best word, but it's definitely a pretty random stat that usually varies from year to year.

[rawaction]

Just to add to this thread.

 

1. Keep Von Joshua with the kids. Change their approaches before they get to the majors. Once their up, they aren't changing.

 

2. I think Hendry and the Cubs value OBP at least a little. I just think they value guys who can hit their way on base over guys who walk to get on base. Extreme example, but I think they would take guy that hits .300 and gets on base at a .340 clip, than a guy that hits .260 and gets on at a .360 clip. Guys like Ramirez, Pierre, and Nomar have put up respectable OBPs, but their numbers have been based on the ability to hit .300.

[CubinNY]

Just to add to this thread.

 

1. Keep Von Joshua with the kids. Change their approaches before they get to the majors. Once their up, they aren't changing.

 

2. I think Hendry and the Cubs value OBP at least a little. I just think they value guys who can hit their way on base over guys who walk to get on base. Extreme example, but I think they would take guy that hits .300 and gets on base at a .340 clip, than a guy that hits .260 and gets on at a .360 clip. Guys like Ramirez, Pierre, and Nomar have put up respectable OBPs, but their numbers have been based on the ability to hit .300.

 

Nothing to add, except that I tottally agree, especially with point #2.

[Guest]

Ramirez is pretty patient.

 

2005 NL average walk rate = .0845

2005 Aramis Ramirez walk rate = .0694

 

Do those numbers hold steady over the last 3 seasons? I know Aramis doesn't strike all that often....

Pretty much. BB/PA for Aramis and the NL average since 2003:

 

yearID    Aramis    NL Avg
2005      0.069      0.085
2004      0.081      0.087
2003P     0.060      0.087
2003C     0.067      0.087

Both have been pretty constant over the past few years, though Ramirez had a slightly higher than normal walk rate in 2004. Another thing to keep in mind is that those average numbers include pitcher stats, so if you compared aramis to other batters he'd look even less patient.