All you Dusty bashers are misinformed

[Guest]

For instance, the notion that he rode Prior and Wood into the ground in 03' still bothers me b/c I've never seen proof of that hypothesis, and Prior really hasn't had serious arm trouble (pending the outcome of his current issues). Moreover, does anyone remember who was available in the 'pen in those games? Most often it was guys like Veres and Guthries. Ouch.).

 

Cause and effect may be impossible to prove, but... in 2003, your leaders in Pitcher Abuse Points (BP's metric on high pitch counts):

 

1) Javier Vasquez,

2) Kerry Wood, age 26

3) Livan Hernandez

4) Mark Prior, age 23

 

Who in the entire league threw the highest average number of pitches per game in 2003?

 

1) Mark Prior [113.4]

2) Kerry Wood [110.7]

And Vasquez suffered through two seasons well below his career-norm performance level, as well.

 

Only a pitching freak like Livan Hernandez can take that kind of workload without suffering from drops in performance or injuries afterwards.

[CubinNY]

For instance, the notion that he rode Prior and Wood into the ground in 03' still bothers me b/c I've never seen proof of that hypothesis, and Prior really hasn't had serious arm trouble (pending the outcome of his current issues). Moreover, does anyone remember who was available in the 'pen in those games? Most often it was guys like Veres and Guthries. Ouch.).

 

Cause and effect may be impossible to prove, but... in 2003, your leaders in Pitcher Abuse Points (BP's metric on high pitch counts):

 

1) Javier Vasquez,

2) Kerry Wood, age 26

3) Livan Hernandez

4) Mark Prior, age 23

 

Who in the entire league threw the highest average number of pitches per game in 2003?

 

1) Mark Prior [113.4]

2) Kerry Wood [110.7]

And Vasquez suffered through two seasons well below his career-norm performance level, as well.

 

Only a pitching freak like Livan Hernandez can take that kind of workload without suffering from drops in performance or injuries afterwards.

 

I would really be interested to see how these numbers project in past years. I am much too lazy to do it myself though.

[atcfootball]

As much as I would love to join this thread, I will pass!

 

I have posted topics such as this myself in the past only to have what seemed to be everyone with the rights to post bash me on it, so no thank you!

Little advice to the ones that want to post with Baker support here, don't do it. The other posters will simply ignore everything you write, and pick a part minor sections of everything you post.

In the past I have posted Baker as #18 all time in win % among managers with 1000 plus wins.

In the past I have completed a list of all "Rookies" that have got a shot to play full time under Baker. That list doubled anything the Cubs had over the same time. (please note a farm systems production is not what was being looked at in the topic).

I have asked questions, never to have them answered!

How does a manager win so many games over 12+ years if he sucks so bad at in game moves?

I have showed solid stats with well thought out arguments, with facts about Bakers past winning, only to have them tore up with quotes such as "Perez one line arguments".

 

Some of the arguments I came up against.....

Payroll

Rookies playing time

Pitching moves

the list could go on....

Payroll - If the size of your payroll wins you a WS, why do we even play the season? Why not just give the WS the Yankees and save ourselves the pain of the Cubs baseball season? Baker don't pick the players to sign, last I checked that was the GM's job (I'm not saying Baker has no say in it).

Rookies - Baker over the course of his career in SF gave more rookies a starting job then the countless Cub managers over the same time. This is not an argument over the farm systems of each team, it is a simple fact. Many want to say well he should have played Cedeno more last year. What they will not tell you is Cedeno's April, May, June & July BA was about .250, they will only point to his final .300..

Pitching moves - uhm, look at the Cubs roster and show me who else you would have gone with at the time. Give me a break with the Dempster/Hawkins thing. Dempster had to start the season were he did do to others being hurt. In the end moving Hawkins and putting Dempster in the closers role did not improve the team so great that it was a playoff team, because of other holes.

 

You know one thing I would think Baker haters could not argue against is this. No matter what you think of Baker since his arrival the Chicago Cubs are no longer the loveable losers. There are expectations to win. Going on 3 years in a row now this team is expected to win. Prior to Baker coming to Chicago, it was always wait until next year or "suprise" if the Cubs played well. Now, we expect it. I for one think that a lot of that has to do with Baker and the way he speaks. I for one give Baker a little credit for that.

 

My last post on this subject, good luck Baker supporters!

[rawaction]

As much as I would love to join this thread, I will pass!

 

I have posted topics such as this myself in the past only to have what seemed to be everyone with the rights to post bash me on it, so no thank you!

Little advice to the ones that want to post with Baker support here, don't do it. The other posters will simply ignore everything you write, and pick a part minor sections of everything you post.

In the past I have posted Baker as #18 all time in win % among managers with 1000 plus wins.

In the past I have completed a list of all "Rookies" that have got a shot to play full time under Baker. That list doubled anything the Cubs had over the same time. (please note a farm systems production is not what was being looked at in the topic).

I have asked questions, never to have them answered!

How does a manager win so many games over 12+ years if he sucks so bad at in game moves?

I have showed solid stats with well thought out arguments, with facts about Bakers past winning, only to have them tore up with quotes such as "Perez one line arguments".

 

Some of the arguments I came up against.....

Payroll

Rookies playing time

Pitching moves

the list could go on....

Payroll - If the size of your payroll wins you a WS, why do we even play the season? Why not just give the WS the Yankees and save ourselves the pain of the Cubs baseball season? Baker don't pick the players to sign, last I checked that was the GM's job (I'm not saying Baker has no say in it).

Rookies - Baker over the course of his career in SF gave more rookies a starting job then the countless Cub managers over the same time. This is not an argument over the farm systems of each team, it is a simple fact. Many want to say well he should have played Cedeno more last year. What they will not tell you is Cedeno's April, May, June & July BA was about .250, they will only point to his final .300..

Pitching moves - uhm, look at the Cubs roster and show me who else you would have gone with at the time. Give me a break with the Dempster/Hawkins thing. Dempster had to start the season were he did do to others being hurt. In the end moving Hawkins and putting Dempster in the closers role did not improve the team so great that it was a playoff team, because of other holes.

 

You know one thing I would think Baker haters could not argue against is this. No matter what you think of Baker since his arrival the Chicago Cubs are no longer the loveable losers. There are expectations to win. Going on 3 years in a row now this team is expected to win. Prior to Baker coming to Chicago, it was always wait until next year or "suprise" if the Cubs played well. Now, we expect it. I for one think that a lot of that has to do with Baker and the way he speaks. I for one give Baker a little credit for that.

 

My last post on this subject, good luck Baker supporters!

 

That's a mouthful for someone passing on this thread.

[Abe Frohman]

If you want to judge Dusty on anything, judge him on how his team performs.

 

ok. his team had a 100 mil+ payroll and finished in fourth place and with a losing record.

 

enough said

 

Let's not forget all the injuries that cost the Cubs star players.

 

There is not a doubt in my mind that if Dusty Baker had a healthy squad, we may have at least one ring to brag about in the past 2 years. Not to sound too apologetic on Baker's part. You can't disregard the injuries to the pitching staff, Nomar, and others.

 

And I don't think anyone (including Baker) want a championship more than the true Cub fans do. NOBODY.

[Chris]

I have asked questions, never to have them answered!

 

That's not accurate.

[XZero771679666304]

If you want to judge Dusty on anything, judge him on how his team performs.

 

ok. his team had a 100 mil+ payroll and finished in fourth place and with a losing record.

 

enough said

 

Let's not forget all the injuries that cost the Cubs star players.

 

There is not a doubt in my mind that if Dusty Baker had a healthy squad, we may have at least one ring to brag about in the past 2 years. Not to sound too apologetic on Baker's part. You can't disregard the injuries to the pitching staff, Nomar, and others.

 

And I don't think anyone (including Baker) want a championship more than the true Cub fans do. NOBODY.

 

The injuries were certainly a huge factor. But when you are doing things like batting sub-.300 OBP guys in front of your triple crown candidate when the offense is struggling, running out a guy to close who everyone knows can't close, letting lousy veterans languish in the everyday lineup when there are better options, etc. you aren't helping the cause.

[UK1679666180]

Only a pitching freak like Livan Hernandez can take that kind of workload without suffering from drops in performance or injuries afterwards.

 

Like Estes, he never had a serious arm injury, just a significant drop in velocity and unlike Estes has been able to successfully adjust his pitching style to his drop in velocity. There was a period of growing pains for him, though. He was getting pounded for awhile.

[ThePenguin11]

As much as I would love to join this thread, I will pass!

 

I have posted topics such as this myself in the past only to have what seemed to be everyone with the rights to post bash me on it, so no thank you!

Little advice to the ones that want to post with Baker support here, don't do it. The other posters will simply ignore everything you write, and pick a part minor sections of everything you post.

In the past I have posted Baker as #18 all time in win % among managers with 1000 plus wins.

In the past I have completed a list of all "Rookies" that have got a shot to play full time under Baker. That list doubled anything the Cubs had over the same time. (please note a farm systems production is not what was being looked at in the topic).

I have asked questions, never to have them answered!

How does a manager win so many games over 12+ years if he sucks so bad at in game moves?

I have showed solid stats with well thought out arguments, with facts about Bakers past winning, only to have them tore up with quotes such as "Perez one line arguments".

 

Some of the arguments I came up against.....

Payroll

Rookies playing time

Pitching moves

the list could go on....

Payroll - If the size of your payroll wins you a WS, why do we even play the season? Why not just give the WS the Yankees and save ourselves the pain of the Cubs baseball season? Baker don't pick the players to sign, last I checked that was the GM's job (I'm not saying Baker has no say in it).

Rookies - Baker over the course of his career in SF gave more rookies a starting job then the countless Cub managers over the same time. This is not an argument over the farm systems of each team, it is a simple fact. Many want to say well he should have played Cedeno more last year. What they will not tell you is Cedeno's April, May, June & July BA was about .250, they will only point to his final .300..

Pitching moves - uhm, look at the Cubs roster and show me who else you would have gone with at the time. Give me a break with the Dempster/Hawkins thing. Dempster had to start the season were he did do to others being hurt. In the end moving Hawkins and putting Dempster in the closers role did not improve the team so great that it was a playoff team, because of other holes.

 

You know one thing I would think Baker haters could not argue against is this. No matter what you think of Baker since his arrival the Chicago Cubs are no longer the loveable losers. There are expectations to win. Going on 3 years in a row now this team is expected to win. Prior to Baker coming to Chicago, it was always wait until next year or "suprise" if the Cubs played well. Now, we expect it. I for one think that a lot of that has to do with Baker and the way he speaks. I for one give Baker a little credit for that.

 

My last post on this subject, good luck Baker supporters!

 

As much as you would like to think you didn't join it, I think you did with the above thesis.

[atcfootball]

And I will make an exit right now from this post, as I said this is not a topic I wish to talk about...

 

I guess I let it get to me a little..... Chow for now.! :)

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I thought his previous post was the last one?

[series65cubsfan]

I thought his previous post was the last one?

 

It kind of reminds me Borgie, at cubs.com and here. He kept making a last post and coming back. Which is unfortunate, because I liked his posts and he was an informed poster.

[bc2k]

The other posters will simply ignore everything you write, and pick a part minor sections of everything you post.

 

Whatever.

[Derwood]

atcfootball wrote:

The other posters will simply ignore everything you write, and pick a part minor sections of everything you post.

 

the word is apart, not a part

 

 

 

/end picking apart minor section of post

[badger1679666666]

atcfootball wrote:

The other posters will simply ignore everything you write, and pick a part minor sections of everything you post.

 

the word is apart, not a part

 

 

 

/end picking apart minor section of post

 

Dude, the guy is from Korea, English might not be his first language. Cut him some slack.

[Derwood]

atcfootball wrote:

The other posters will simply ignore everything you write, and pick a part minor sections of everything you post.

 

the word is apart, not a part

 

 

 

/end picking apart minor section of post

 

Dude, the guy is from Korea, English might not be his first language. Cut him some slack.

 

Just poking fun. I didn't actually read the whole thread. If English isn't his first language, it's pretty damn good. I talk to many Americans online who can barely spell their name.

[wekse]

atcfootball wrote:

The other posters will simply ignore everything you write, and pick a part minor sections of everything you post.

 

the word is apart, not a part

 

 

 

/end picking apart minor section of post

 

Dude, the guy is from Korea, English might not be his first language. Cut him some slack.

 

you're not serious are you? by the looks of their location they are in the service, stationed in s. korea

[atcfootball]

Not posting on the topic, just posting again to see how many will reply again with "typical" wise remarks about last post and english leasons.

 

I'm in Korea yes, I'm not Korean however, I'm from Chicago, but in the military. If anyone gets the chance come on over and watch some Korean baseball with me... The first round of "OB" or "Hite" is on me!

 

Peace....

[wekse]

I'm in Korea yes, I'm not Korean however, I'm from Chicago, but in the military.

 

i hate to say i told you so...wait, no i don't

[badger1679666666]

I'm in Korea yes, I'm not Korean however, I'm from Chicago, but in the military.

 

i hate to say i told you so...wait, no i don't

 

You were supposed to quote me.

 

:wink:

 

And I can admit when I'm wrong. I was wrong.

[Bgbird68]

If you want to judge Dusty on anything, judge him on how his team performs.

 

ok. his team had a 100 mil+ payroll and finished in fourth place and with a losing record.

 

enough said

 

Let's not forget all the injuries that cost the Cubs star players.

 

There is not a doubt in my mind that if Dusty Baker had a healthy squad, we may have at least one ring to brag about in the past 2 years. Not to sound too apologetic on Baker's part. You can't disregard the injuries to the pitching staff, Nomar, and others.

 

And I don't think anyone (including Baker) want a championship more than the true Cub fans do. NOBODY.

 

And what's the excuse for 03?

[frostwyrm]

2003 NLCS was appallingly managed. Even if we get back to the playoffs we are at a severe disadvantage with Dusty calling the shots.

[Derwood]

BTW, to compare Dusty to Bobby Cox in an attempt to make him look good is sort of a joke, as Cox has mismanaged his way through more postseasons than Dusty has. Both are kings of regular season success and postseason failure.

[Yeti]

Chow for now.! :)

 

is it dinner time?:lol:

[UK1679666180]

BTW, to compare Dusty to Bobby Cox in an attempt to make him look good is sort of a joke, as Cox has mismanaged his way through more postseasons than Dusty has. Both are kings of regular season success and postseason failure.

 

I put more stock into Cox's ability to get into the postseason than I do his inability to not win it.

 

Baker really isn't the king of post-season failure, b/c he only gets to the post-season about 33% of the time.

 

If a score of 15-4 is considered a rout, that's the difference between the amount of postseason appear. for Cox compared to Baker. Everyone knows about the consecutive streak for Cox as well.