SI article on Bonds' steroid use.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Say it ain't so, Joe! Say it ain't so...

[Andy]

Least surprising "revelation" that I've ever heard.

 

Now the only question is how far will Barroid fall?

[erik316wttn]

Kurkijan just said on SC that if a vote were held today, he doubts Bonds makes the HOF.

 

First ballot or tenth ballot, he will get in.

 

I'm not saying he deserves it. I'm just saying he will get in.

[CDBears1259]

From what I've read here and in the rags, I might be the only person in the world who could careless about Barry and his use of juice one way or the other.

[ConstableRabbit]

I enjoyed reading the excerpt because it put everything together. I feel like there are little snippets of what Bonds' steroid usage has been. It was nice to read it in a narrative-style format.

[Diffusion]

Kurkijan just said on SC that if a vote were held today, he doubts Bonds makes the HOF.

 

First ballot or tenth ballot, he will get in.

 

I'm not saying he deserves it. I'm just saying he will get in.

 

I'll say he deserves it.

 

If he'd retired after 1998 instead of cheated, his career numbers of...

 

1898 G, 6621 AB, 1364 R, 1917 H, 411 HR, 1216 RBI, 1357 BB, 1050 K, 445 SB 130 CS (77%), .290/.411/.556...

 

...would have easily been HOF worthy. You're still talking about the only player in the history of the game with 400 HR and 400 SB, you're talking about a guy that ranks in the thirty in the history of the game in OBP and SLG, you're talking about an 8 time All-Star, 3 time MVP, 8 time Gold Glove winner, 7 time Silver Slugger, 5 time league leader in OPS.

 

If he'd carried on naturally for a few years, since retiring at 33 is unusal, he'd easily have made his way into the top twenty in runs and RBI, would have made it to 500 HR and 500 SB, maybe made a few more All-Star appearances, won a few more Gold Gloves and so on. His rate numbers may have dipped a bit, but the guy still would have been an absolute lock.

 

You can't erase from the record what Bonds did before 1999.

 

Yes, Bonds cheated, and his numbers since 1999 are ridiculous...

 

832 G, 2519 AB, 714 R, 825 H, 297 HR, 637 RBI, 954 BB, 384 K, 61 SB 11 CS (85%), .328/.515/.756...

 

...and perhaps the most damning indication of his guilt. You're talking about a guy that, from age 34 onwards, became many times over a better player than he'd ever been before. That just doesn't happen. As you get into your thirties, you decline.

 

Bonds deserves everything that he has brought upon himself through his cheating, every single little bit of it.

 

But what you cannot deny is that cheating has occured throughout the history of the game, and that there are cheats in the HOF. The HOF can't retain any credibility if it excludes Bonds from the HOF without throwing out every single person already in there that also cheated. And you can include Babe Ruth and his trick bat in that.

 

The other thing you can't deny is that Bonds was a product of his era, an era in which almost undisputedly tens of dozens if not hundreds of players cheated, because drugs all of a sudden became easily obtainable and they were literally allowed to get away with it by other players, managers, the commissioner's office, the player's union, and so on. There was absolutely no regulation whatsoever, there were no questions asked, and anyone that did no anything tacitly agreed upon "I won't tell if you don't". You'd better believe that if such an era had existed 50 years earlier, some of our darling HOFs would have got caught up in it. Baseball has a history of seeking advantage through any means possible, and Bonds is just part of that.

 

And you'd better believe that Bonds isn't the only HOF-calibre player of the steroids era that ever took them. If the HOF is going to exclude Bonds, it needs to go after every single player over whom there's reasonable doubt with the same zealousness, the same perverse satisfaction in their downfall, and it needs to get them and exclude them from the HOF too, starting with Mark McGwire this year. If the HOF wants to say "anyone we've already inducted is safe, but from now on cheating isn't a part of the game", then they've got to have that actually mean something besides that Bonds doesn't go to the hall. Because they can't make him the fall guy for the entire era just because he was caught. There's no moral difference between cheating and getting caught and cheating and getting away with it.

 

There's just no practical way that the HOF can keep Bonds out while maintaining any credibility whatsoever.

 

Then again, the HOF have never been practical, credibility has never been their middle name, and I doubt the middle of a witch hunt is any time for them to turn over a new leaf.

 

I feel sorry for Barry frankly. I respect and appreciate the player he used to be, I marvel at the player he became, for he was a joy to watch regardless of the way he achieved it, I despise him as a cheat and I think very little of him as a human being. He should get what he deserves, but what he's getting has long gone way beyond that. Baseball is attributing every ounce of guilt owed the entire steroids era to him, and he's not the only guilty party in this, not at all.

[CuseCubFan69]

Mark McGwire is a dark corner somewhere huddled up in a ball hoping the press has forgot about him.

 

Since steroids were illegal in 2002 I see no reason why Bonds should be allowed in the Hall. Rose had a great career before he decided to gamble on Baseball and he's not in while Bonds gambled on enhancements...and got caught, we think. I will still wait until this is proven though. I dipise MLB for not testing Bonds.

[wade]

Diffusion, that was an outstanding post.

[RynoRules]

Diffusion, that was an outstanding post.

 

Here here. That was one of the most lucid posts I have ever read here, free of melodrama or nonsense. A well reasoned opinion; I don't necessarily agree with every word, but still, well done.

[wade]

If anyone cares, there is a long excerpt from the book at cnn.com. Scroll down to sports and click on the Bonds link. I'm only on page 3 and it's pretty interesting.

 

The only thing I disagree with so far is the author's assertion early on that no 34 year old can put on 15 pounds of muscle in 100 days. I know they can because I've done it myself. Twice. Once at 34 and once at 35. I'm getting ready to try again.

 

And I'm not professional athlete that stands to make millions of dollars more and gain tremendous fame. Not only do those guys have the incentive, they have the time, money, and resources to do so.

 

Now, I want to be clear that I don't doubt Bonds did steroids. I just think it's a little bit of hyperbole to say no one can gain a lot of muscle in a 3-4 month period and that everybody and their brother should have seen in the spring of 99 that Bonds juiced.

 

Some saw, no doubt, and just didn't say anything.

[rjchapma]

Bonds must have taken every roid that is around. Have you ever looked at the size of his head. He looks like a bobble head.

[frostwyrm]

I'm not defending Bonds but I'm sure he gets an extra helping of abuse because he's so damn unlikable as a human being, but that shouldn't matter for HOF consideration. Ty Cobb was way worse and he's in the HOF, and Cobb probably would have used drugs too had they been available. I don't know if he would have been hulked up on roids but I bet he would have put greenies in his corn flakes.

[erik316wttn]

People are going to wait for the smoking gun (i.e. a positive test) before doing much about it. I doubt this article changes people's minds one way or the other, although it is very detailed and the sources cited are big ones.

[J.R.]

From what I've read here and in the rags, I might be the only person in the world who could careless about Barry and his use of juice one way or the other.

 

I suppose we're alone in this then.

 

This means nothing to me.

[OleMissCub]

I'm not defending Bonds but I'm sure he gets an extra helping of abuse because he's so damn unlikable as a human being, but that shouldn't matter for HOF consideration. Ty Cobb was way worse and he's in the HOF, and Cobb probably would have used drugs too had they been available. I don't know if he would have been hulked up on roids but I bet he would have put greenies in his corn flakes.

 

I don't think Ty would have used drugs if they had been available. He always stated that "i may have been rough sometimes, but I was never unfair." For several years near the beginning of his career, at Tiger homegames there was a trick the team used where they had a boy in the scoreboard who had a pair of binoculars to look at the catchers sign. The boy would slide a certain card into a slot in the scoreboard if it was a curve pitch coming, one for a fastball, and one for offspeed. For all the years they did this, Cobb told them to piss off and told the kid not to do it when he was up because it wasn't fair...but mainly because "I don't need it anyways"

 

While he was an awful human being for the most part and did gamble on baseball (mainly always on himself i.e. he'd bet the bookies that he'd hit a double to right field, then steal third and steal home, etc...and usually won), I don't think he would use performance enhancing drugs. In all of my research about him, I just don't think it would be in his character to cheat physically. But who can say.

[cjbucks]

I'm not defending Bonds but I'm sure he gets an extra helping of abuse because he's so damn unlikable as a human being, but that shouldn't matter for HOF consideration. Ty Cobb was way worse and he's in the HOF, and Cobb probably would have used drugs too had they been available. I don't know if he would have been hulked up on roids but I bet he would have put greenies in his corn flakes.

 

I'm not defending Bonds either but he beat the system - MLB never tested him positve for anything to my knowledge. Until they do he is a first ballot HOF - just like Cobb you can't keep someone out just because they are a jerk among other less positive things.

[OleMissCub]

I'm not defending Bonds but I'm sure he gets an extra helping of abuse because he's so damn unlikable as a human being, but that shouldn't matter for HOF consideration. Ty Cobb was way worse and he's in the HOF, and Cobb probably would have used drugs too had they been available. I don't know if he would have been hulked up on roids but I bet he would have put greenies in his corn flakes.

 

I'm not defending Bonds either but he beat the system - MLB never tested him positve for anything to my knowledge. Until they do he is a first ballot HOF - just like Cobb you can't keep someone out just because they are a jerk among other less positive things.

 

I think there is a massive difference in being a douche-bag off the field i.e. Cobb, Dimaggio, Strawberry, Puckett and knowingly cheating to gain a superior advantage.

 

Bonds is clearly, even just taking his pre-1998 numbers, a hall of famer. I still think he'll get voted in, but I wouldn't vote for him.

[BigbadB]

My feelings on Bonds are pretty well documented. I think I understand now why he wears that body armour. He didn't want any pitchers to hit his needle drilled elbow.

[frostwyrm]

I'm not defending Bonds but I'm sure he gets an extra helping of abuse because he's so damn unlikable as a human being, but that shouldn't matter for HOF consideration. Ty Cobb was way worse and he's in the HOF, and Cobb probably would have used drugs too had they been available. I don't know if he would have been hulked up on roids but I bet he would have put greenies in his corn flakes.

 

I don't think Ty would have used drugs if they had been available. He always stated that "i may have been rough sometimes, but I was never unfair." For several years near the beginning of his career, at Tiger homegames there was a trick the team used where they had a boy in the scoreboard who had a pair of binoculars to look at the catchers sign. The boy would slide a certain card into a slot in the scoreboard if it was a curve pitch coming, one for a fastball, and one for offspeed. For all the years they did this, Cobb told them to piss off and told the kid not to do it when he was up because it wasn't fair...but mainly because "I don't need it anyways"

 

While he was an awful human being for the most part and did gamble on baseball (mainly always on himself i.e. he'd bet the bookies that he'd hit a double to right field, then steal third and steal home, etc...and usually won), I don't think he would use performance enhancing drugs. In all of my research about him, I just don't think it would be in his character to cheat physically. But who can say.

 

Well alright maybe Cobb was a bad example but the point I want to make is that the baseball hereoes of yesteryear weren't all great human beings and I'm sure plenty of them would have availed themselves of today's pharmaceutical technologies given the chance. In my view Bonds is just a jerk who happened to play in an era when lax rules and modern technology made it possible for jerks to explore the full extent of their jerkhood. The primary blame goes to MLB for allowing such a deporable situation to arise, then letting it persist for years after the problem was known.

[Wilson A2000]

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/2006/03/06/bonds.years/2004_017022893.jpg

 

Case closed

[rocket]

I don't see how that pic shows the case is closed.

[wade]

I don't see how that pic shows the case is closed.

 

Me neither.

 

If you went off looks alone, every running back at the N.F.L. combine last week was on the gas.

 

There's evidence, it's just elsewhere.

[frostwyrm]

I don't see how that pic shows the case is closed.

 

It kinda does. I used to lift weights like crazy and became quite big, benching a little over 300 lbs. Doing the type of workouts I did requires at least a day of recovery time, and you're weak and stiff during the recovery day. Baseball doesn't give you many days off, so I can't see how any drug-free person could do a linebacker's weightlifting program during the baseball season and still play 5-6 games per week at a peak performance level. Remember, one of the primary benefits of roids is that they dramatically reduce recovery time. Also, the season is 6 months long, so I don't see any way you could avoid losing a lot of muscle by September unless you continued to lift at the same pace at least through the first half of the season. I can tell you when your muscles get really big they also quickly deflate if you slack off. It is really hard work to stay huge and ripped. All these roid monsters stayed huge from April to October. There is no way they could have done that without chemical help.

[frostwyrm]

I don't see how that pic shows the case is closed.

 

Me neither.

 

If you went off looks alone, every running back at the N.F.L. combine last week was on the gas.

 

There's evidence, it's just elsewhere.

 

Football is played once per week, baseball 5-6 times per week. That makes all the difference in the world.

[goonys evil twin]

I don't see how that pic shows the case is closed.

 

Me neither.

 

If you went off looks alone, every running back at the N.F.L. combine last week was on the gas.

 

There's evidence, it's just elsewhere.

 

Football is played once per week, baseball 5-6 times per week. That makes all the difference in the world.

 

That and 21 year old running backs didn't go from tall slender athletes into monster behemoths in one offseason in their 30's.