Why does everyone hate Neifi Perez?

[CubDad4Ever]

Again you dont get it. I am not arguing the value of OBP or flippin the lack of it on the cubs. Chester the chimp can figure that one out. It is valuing more than just that in a player. Nefi is better than almost any backup shortstop in baseball because he brings gold glove level defense(rob neyer) and can play every day. People who are brittle , or stink on defense can not be put at short or just like having poor on base , you wont win with it , unless your dominant on o and pitching in which case you could get by with a poor obp shortstop anyway. You cant argue about Dustys using a proven commidity at that position after an injury , you can complain about his spot in the batting order. I want more also . But he is an excellent back up shortstop. Value him for what he is. God Bless Coach L

[BigbadB]

I like Neifi. As a benchplayer and even for an occasional spot start. I can be realistic and know that you aren't going to have a good OBP/slick fielding/decent OPS/speedy guy as your 25th man on the roster. If the guy had all that, he'd be a starter for some other team.

 

But, a 25th man should not make 2.5m a year. A 25th man doesn't need a 2 year deal. A guy who gets on base as infrequently as Neifi should never hit lead off. NEVER! A guy who hits into as many double plays and gets on base as infrequently as Neifi should never bat 2nd. 7th or 8th is where he belongs. Because he has a respectable AVG, the bottom of the order actually makes sense. You want a guy with a respectable AVG to be able to drive in some runs in the 8 spot, since the pitcher's probably not going to do it.

 

There probably are some people who don't like Neifi. It doesn't appear to be many, however. Most appear to dislike the usage of Neifi by Cubs management. Most believe that if you are going to have a guy like Dusty as manager, then you have to counter that move by getting rid of the guys who Dusty will use improperly.

 

I will never receive a satisfying response for the rest of my life from anyone as to why Neifi Perez and Jose Macias batted 1/2 in the line up for the Cubs in 1 game, let alone anymore than that. Whether they were in the race or out of it. Doesn't matter. Neither provide speed. Neither provide an above average AVG. Neither provide a respectable OBP. It is that kind of thinking that gives me every right to question the person who filled out that line up card.

 

Only a truly clueless manager hides their worst hitters at the top of the line up, where they will not only NOT set up the most productive hitters on the team very often, but they will also receive the most at bats. This isn't targeting Dusty. This is just my honest opinion of the worst place to hide your worst hitters on the team. The first guys in the line up are supposed to set the tone for the game. Go out there and get a hit, draw a walk, steal a base, make the pitcher show extra attention to you at 1st, take an extra base on a single, etc.... Macias and Perez aren't those kinds of players. If Hairston and Walker aren't playing, then stick Murton and Cedeno at the top. Find someone who can do those things or at least has the chance to be successful once in awhile at it.

 

If Dusty never put guys like Neifi, Macias, Enrique Wilson, etc.. at the top of the order last year, I probably wouldn't be so down on him. To me it's common sense, something that apparently lacks to even remotely think a guy like Macias and his sub .300 OBP would flourish as a #2 hitter.

 

In essence, it's not Neifi that people are frustrated with, but the guy who doesn't use him correctly.

[Magnetic Curses]

Again you dont get it. I am not arguing the value of OBP or flippin the lack of it on the cubs. Chester the chimp can figure that one out. It is valuing more than just that in a player. Nefi is better than almost any backup shortstop in baseball because he brings gold glove level defense(rob neyer) and can play every day. People who are brittle , or stink on defense can not be put at short or just like having poor on base , you wont win with it , unless your dominant on o and pitching in which case you could get by with a poor obp shortstop anyway. You cant argue about Dustys using a proven commidity at that position after an injury , you can complain about his spot in the batting order. I want more also . But he is an excellent back up shortstop. Value him for what he is. God Bless Coach L

 

i don't think anyone is arguing that he's not a good backup option. he's fine. he can play 3rd, second, and SS, that I like. he shouldn't be playing everyday, and he shouldn't be the first pinch-hitter off the bench.

 

the conundrum we're in is that dusty doesn't see NOT MAKING OUTS as a valuable commodity and COULD start neifi more than he starts cedeno if ronnie slumps in april.

 

the bottom line is that we cannot value neifi for what he is when he is doing something that he isn't. he isn't a starter and i don't want him starting. on a team that can get by with a player like neifi at short, that's fine. our OBP just isn't good enough to be able to afford the luxury of starting a guy like him at SS.

Edited January 20, 2006 by Stannis

[USSoccer]

Again you dont get it. I am not arguing the value of OBP or flippin the lack of it on the cubs. Chester the chimp can figure that one out. It is valuing more than just that in a player. Nefi is better than almost any backup shortstop in baseball because he brings gold glove level defense(rob neyer) and can play every day. People who are brittle , or stink on defense can not be put at short or just like having poor on base , you wont win with it , unless your dominant on o and pitching in which case you could get by with a poor obp shortstop anyway. You cant argue about Dustys using a proven commidity at that position after an injury , you can complain about his spot in the batting order. I want more also . But he is an excellent back up shortstop. Value him for what he is. God Bless Coach L

 

He's not excellent at anything, but if he's your backup, he should be paid like a backup IF is paid around the league, not paid as if he's an irreplaceable asset.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I still don't like Neifi...even though Rubby has tried to persuade me otherwise.

 

I did tell Rubby that I'lll give Neifi one more chance to sign my ball this year...but if he doesn't I'm going to begin my all-out smear compaign to label Neifi the worst player in the history of the game.

[Banedon]

Again you dont get it. I am not arguing the value of OBP or flippin the lack of it on the cubs. Chester the chimp can figure that one out. It is valuing more than just that in a player. Nefi is better than almost any backup shortstop in baseball because he brings gold glove level defense(rob neyer) and can play every day. People who are brittle , or stink on defense can not be put at short or just like having poor on base , you wont win with it , unless your dominant on o and pitching in which case you could get by with a poor obp shortstop anyway. You cant argue about Dustys using a proven commidity at that position after an injury , you can complain about his spot in the batting order. I want more also . But he is an excellent back up shortstop. Value him for what he is. God Bless Coach L

 

So you like him as a backup. I think there's not too many (though probably some) that would disagree there. How do you feel about him as a starter though? That's something that happened far too often last year and something that I would say a lot of us fear will happen again this year. I think fear of Neifi starting frequently is being confused for "Neifi-Hate".

[imb]

He shouldnt be hitting anywhere that isnt 8th (except in April and May), he shouldnt be making 2.5 mil a year, he shouldnt be the first pinch hitter off the bench (unless it's April or May).

 

It has nothing to do with fantasy baseball (give me a break) or Moneyball (give me a break x 2), or thinking that yourself could gm a baseball team, it has to do with him being an all glove, no bat short stop.

 

Let's see what happens if Neifi hits this season exactly like he did last season, except that instead of being great in April/May, he hits up to his usual standards, that would probably rank him in the bottom one or two SS in the league, and I cant imagine anyone coming out of the woodwork to defend him then, no matter how misguided.

[SanJoseCubsFan]

Let's be clear OPS is the closest simple calculation to figuring out how many runs a team will score not just OBP. This is where I argue Neifi is not as bad as people think. It is obvious he sucks at OBP but he does do many other things at the league average or better for a shortstop-such as defense, club house, slugging etc.

 

Speed does have value , defense has tremendous value, being a good clubhouse guy , baserunner, intelligent player all have value.

 

none have as much value as OBP.

 

as wastra and poudre mouse have made very clear:

 

not making outs is the single most important facet of the game in regards to scoring runs.

 

the stat that measures OUTS NOT MADE is OBP.

 

this cubs team was below average last year when it came to not making outs. consequently is was terrible at scoring runs.

 

this cubs team was not bad defensively, nor was it poor in regards to team speed, and it was very above average in BA.

 

one of the big reasons this cub team was not successful was because it couldn't score. another reason was it's injuries to starting pitchers, but even this could have been overcome with better plate discipline.

 

maybe other teams DON'T need to work on their plate discipline, and maybe it's NOT important to upgrade for teams that have it. however, for this team, there was no bigger hole than OBP, there was no more important place to upgrade.

 

the reason everyone talks about getting more OBP on this board is because the CUBS DON'T HAVE IT. i don't care if bill james is sitting in your living room right now, he'd take one look at this cubs team and say: "they suck at not making outs".

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Again you dont get it. I am not arguing the value of OBP or flippin the lack of it on the cubs. Chester the chimp can figure that one out. It is valuing more than just that in a player. Nefi is better than almost any backup shortstop in baseball because he brings gold glove level defense(rob neyer) and can play every day. People who are brittle , or stink on defense can not be put at short or just like having poor on base , you wont win with it , unless your dominant on o and pitching in which case you could get by with a poor obp shortstop anyway. You cant argue about Dustys using a proven commidity at that position after an injury , you can complain about his spot in the batting order. I want more also . But he is an excellent back up shortstop. Value him for what he is. God Bless Coach L

 

He's not an excellent backup at all. He's completely replaceable. He has a plus glove and a big minus bat. He had a career year last year in every sense of the word(offense and defense), and he was still one of the worst hitters in the game. Neifi is not good, and considering you can acquire someone with a similar skillset who will be younger with the possibility to provide some offensive value, there's little reason to have him on the team. Giving him a TWO year and FIVE million dollar contract, on a team that DUSTY manages, crosses the line into the incomprehensibly stupid.

[CubinNY]

I would just like to point out the one thing that all 58 posts in this thread have in common.

 

No one has said they hate Neifie.

 

However, Vance is reserving judgement untill and unless he gets Niefie's autograph.

 

Can we stop with the hysterics then?

[goonys evil twin]

Let's be clear OPS is the closest simple calculation to figuring out how many runs a team will score not just OBP. This is where I argue Neifi is not as bad as people think. It is obvious he sucks at OBP but he does do many other things at the league average or better for a shortstop-such as defense, club house, slugging etc.

 

OBP outweighs SLG pretty significantly, and Neifi doesn't provide SLG. Last year the midpoint for team SLG from a SS was .385, Neifi was .383. But that was also a 4 year high for him that was inflated by a hot April. That leaguewide number also takes into account every SS who plays, not just everybody who gets significant playing time. Neifi, outside of Coors, is typically around .330-.340 in the SLG department, which is all the way down the list of MLB SS.

 

He sucks people, stop trying to gloss over that fact and just accept it. The Cubs overvalue him, just like they overvalue several mediocre players. It's possible to win with him on the team, and making far too much money, but it'll just be tougher to do so.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Let's be clear OPS is the closest simple calculation to figuring out how many runs a team will score not just OBP. This is where I argue Neifi is not as bad as people think. It is obvious he sucks at OBP but he does do many other things at the league average or better for a shortstop-such as defense, club house, slugging etc.

 

Of Shortstops with 300 PA's, Neifi was 22nd of 32 in SLG and IsoP. He's not a good slugger. His defense is above average, but his terrible offense neutralizes that, and in accordance with his age he is entirely replaceable, and most certainly not someone you give 2/5 to with Dusty as manager.

[CubinNY]

Let's be clear OPS is the closest simple calculation to figuring out how many runs a team will score not just OBP. This is where I argue Neifi is not as bad as people think. It is obvious he sucks at OBP but he does do many other things at the league average or better for a shortstop-such as defense, club house, slugging etc.

 

Exactly how is "clubhouse" measured?

 

Last year Neifi was 9th out of 11 qualified SS in OPS.

 

He has a .681 OPS for his career.

 

In short, his OPS sucks.

 

He should not be an every day player and he should not be making 2.5 mill/year.

[CubDad4Ever]

This thread has triggered the type of debate i enjoy, analysis not just beating a horse with no facts behind it (mixed metaphor) Yes i like nefi as a starter if he has to replace an injured player. I dont value his offense at the top of the order. and again compare him to other great defenders at that position have had bad ops. I know its not his strength and in this non steriod era , people are going to value defensive metrics in a different light than in the easy walk smash ball era. (read juicing the game). I hope ronny is a 340 guy obp . but based on his minor splits i have my doubts that he will eclipse nefi . He seems to be a average driven guy. Like nefi , everett and cabrera. God Bless you all Coach L.

[goonys evil twin]

This thread has triggered the type of debate i enjoy, analysis not just beating a horse with no facts behind it (mixed metaphor) Yes i like nefi as a starter if he has to replace an injured player. I dont value his offense at the top of the order. and again compare him to other great defenders at that position have had bad ops. I know its not his strength and in this non steriod era , people are going to value defensive metrics in a different light than in the easy walk smash ball era. (read juicing the game). I hope ronny is a 340 guy obp . but based on his minor splits i have my doubts that he will eclipse nefi . He seems to be a average driven guy. Like nefi , everett and cabrera. God Bless you all Coach L.

 

I have my doubts about Ronny as well, but it's much better to take your chances on a kid (making the minimum) who might be good but might suck over a veteran who will definitely suck because he's always sucked and will always suck (and who you're stuck paying $5 million).

[CubDad4Ever]

Let me clarify sucks , sucks is hitting like mendoza and fielding like manny rameriz only at ss. I think they rewarded nefi 2.5 per because he can in fact start a whole year (rarer than you think and definitly an under valued metric ) and field like a gold glover at a top defensive position. You are paying for protection Right or wrong thats how they see it. Also we are not nor should we operate like the oakland beanes, We should operate like the red sox , who have a larger payroll and still try to evaluate a variety of ways. In the book mind games it talked about defensive values leading to the trade of Normar. Again i understand Nefis weakness and hope we get better OPS from a player with low salary control like Cedeno . I know every good value decsion helps , but i dont think his money handicaps the team a bit. God Bless Coach L.

[goonys evil twin]

I think they rewarded nefi 2.5 per because he can in fact start a whole year (rarer than you think and definitly an under valued metric )

 

Neifi can only start, or play a lot, on a team that is willing to lose a lot of games (the Cubs should not be that team), or on a team with an otherwise aweseom lineup (the Cubs are not that team).

[treebird]

Let me clarify sucks , sucks is hitting like mendoza and fielding like manny rameriz only at ss. I think they rewarded nefi 2.5 per because he can in fact start a whole year (rarer than you think and definitly an under valued metric ) and field like a gold glover at a top defensive position. You are paying for protection Right or wrong thats how they see it. Also we are not nor should we operate like the oakland beanes, We should operate like the red sox , who have a larger payroll and still try to evaluate a variety of ways. In the book mind games it talked about defensive values leading to the trade of Normar. Again i understand Nefis weakness and hope we get better OPS from a player with low salary control like Cedeno . I know every good value decsion helps , but i dont think his money handicaps the team a bit. God Bless Coach L.

 

did you ever coach a high school baseball team in bushnell, IL?

 

you remind me of someone i used to know.

[USSoccer]

This thread has triggered the type of debate i enjoy, analysis not just beating a horse with no facts behind it (mixed metaphor) Yes i like nefi as a starter if he has to replace an injured player. I dont value his offense at the top of the order. and again compare him to other great defenders at that position have had bad ops. I know its not his strength and in this non steriod era , people are going to value defensive metrics in a different light than in the easy walk smash ball era. (read juicing the game). I hope ronny is a 340 guy obp . but based on his minor splits i have my doubts that he will eclipse nefi . He seems to be a average driven guy. Like nefi , everett and cabrera. God Bless you all Coach L.

 

Here's the problem-Neifi is not a great defender. He's at replacement level. He makes above replacement level money, and is placed in spots that are production driven by his manager. Add in the fact we have better, cheaper options at IF right now (Cedeno, Walker and Hairston), and there is no reason for him to make what he makes, and have the role he has. He's not good at anything. He's the very definition of mediocre. You can win in spite of him, but you will never, EVER win a division because of anything he can provide.

 

Also, his salary on it's own is not prohibitive, but when you have about 15% of your payroll eaten up by players barely at replacement level (Rusch, Jones, Perez and Blanco), when you have better, cheaper alternatives from your own system to plug in, it will hamstring you when you need to come up with a little more money in a tight negotiation.

 

Again, since we seem to be going around in circles:

 

Neifi as 25th man, less than 30 starts, defensive replacement, and $800-$1m/yr player = Fine with 96% of NSBB.

 

Neifi as 1 or 2 hitter, 2yr, $5m player, primary backup IF or starting 2B on a contending-minded team = guaranteed mistake.

 

This is not complicated.

[Guest]

Let's be clear OPS is the closest simple calculation to figuring out how many runs a team will score not just OBP. This is where I argue Neifi is not as bad as people think. It is obvious he sucks at OBP but he does do many other things at the league average or better for a shortstop-such as defense, club house, slugging etc.

I've yet to be convinced that Neifi is all that great of a defender. He has the reputation, but most metrics worth their wieght in digital bits show over the past several years he's essentially been an average defending shortstop. (Aside from last year, for example, Baseball Prospectus had him saving more than several runs per year after he left Colorado. UZR, probably the best defensive metric there is, rated him as an eactly average SS from 2000-2003 -- several runs worse than Nomar over that span, by the way.) He's also clearly below league average in hitting for power. Even taking last season's numbers (a career year, mind you) his SLG of .383 was well below league average even for SS, who came in at .394 for the year. Going by three year averages Neifi looks even worse, with a SLG of .360 and an IsoP of .096. (Vs. an average 2005 SS who put up .394 and .124 lines.)

 

Given a full season's worth of AB's Neifi will probably cost you about 15-18 runs of offense when compared to an average shortstop. (He's averaged about 0.14 runs per PA over the past three years, as opposed to 0.16 for the typical SS.) His glove won't save you nearly that many runs, particularly considering the relatively few number of balls in play the Cubs staff gives up. He's a far below average shortstop making quite a bit of money. He's not terrible as the last bat off the bench getting 50 PA a season, but the way he's getting paid and the way he's likely to be used by Baker means he'll more than likely be a serious detriment to this team over the next two years.

 

That being said, I don't hate Neifi. I'm just not a fan of what he's likely to contribute to the team's chances of winning.

[atcfootball]

Really did not think that this thread would bring up so many posts.

 

Anyway, interesting reading your opinions.

It seems that most just hate the way he is used.

It seems that most just hate were he hits.

It seems that most just hate how much he is paid.

It seems that most just hate that he is NOT used as the 25th man.

It seems that most just hate that he is USED as a 1 or 2 option off the bench, or starter if INF get's hurt.

It seems that most just hate his OBP.

 

Just seems to me that when I put them opinions together it leads me think, not many people like him. Thus that is how the title of the post comes about.

 

Let me say, I'm not going to knock the guy for getting 2M or 3M a year for getting 500AB. I really would not knock the guy when I look on the same team and see Wood making 11M and Nomar making 8M a year, the year prior.

I was not happy with his OBP or his hitting second in the lineup (and I like Baker as a manager).

In looking at Bowa, Dunston and AGone I was not as much compairing the 4 of them. I was simply showing the numbers (and ages) and saying the Cubs have not had a steller SS in sometime, so basically Perez was giving us the production we as fans should be used to. Looking at the numbers if Perez is a backup (and he is), should have Dunston, AGone and Bowa been backups also? Just a thought.

 

I did not like Perez playing so much last year. Many of you seem to say the same thing, so I ask what other options did the team have to play SS? For those of us that would argue for Cedeno I will counter that with....

As of 8/26/05 Cedeno hit .259 with a homer and three RBI's in the Majors.

Cedeno has a career minor league (6 seasons) average of .254

Cedeno has a career minor league OBP of .335

I may be in the minority here, but I just don't see this as Major Leauge ready.

Bash Baker for use of Perez, that is fine, but please give me a better option at SS once Nomar got hurt last year.

I read I like Perez, I just don't like how he was use. That is great, who on last years team would you have filled that hole at SS with?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Really did not think that this thread would bring up so many posts.

 

Anyway, interesting reading your opinions.

It seems that most just hate the way he is used.

It seems that most just hate were he hits.

It seems that most just hate how much he is paid.

It seems that most just hate that he is NOT used as the 25th man.

It seems that most just hate that he is USED as a 1 or 2 option off the bench, or starter if INF get's hurt.

It seems that most just hate his OBP.

 

Just seems to me that when I put them opinions together it leads me think, not many people like him. Thus that is how the title of the post comes about.

 

Let me say, I'm not going to knock the guy for getting 2M or 3M a year for getting 500AB. I really would not knock the guy when I look on the same team and see Wood making 11M and Nomar making 8M a year, the year prior.

I was not happy with his OBP or his hitting second in the lineup (and I like Baker as a manager).

In looking at Bowa, Dunston and AGone I was not as much compairing the 4 of them. I was simply showing the numbers (and ages) and saying the Cubs have not had a steller SS in sometime, so basically Perez was giving us the production we as fans should be used to. Looking at the numbers if Perez is a backup (and he is), should have Dunston, AGone and Bowa been backups also? Just a thought.

 

I did not like Perez playing so much last year. Many of you seem to say the same thing, so I ask what other options did the team have to play SS? For those of us that would argue for Cedeno I will counter that with....

As of 8/26/05 Cedeno hit .259 with a homer and three RBI's in the Majors.

Cedeno has a career minor league (6 seasons) average of .254

Cedeno has a career minor league OBP of .335

I may be in the minority here, but I just don't see this as Major Leauge ready.

Bash Baker for use of Perez, that is fine, but please give me a better option at SS once Nomar got hurt last year.

I read I like Perez, I just don't like how he was use. That is great, who on last years team would you have filled that hole at SS with?

 

Aside from his time at Colorado and Colorado Springs, which are two of the most notorious hitter's parks in professional baseball, Neifi has put up an OBP over .300 ONCE, and that was his first professional season at rookie ball. Wrap your head around that for a second, repeat it aloud or do whatever is necessary to fully grasp how truly awful that is. Then consider that Cedeno's career numbers are deceiving because of the upward trend in his offensive development, and consider that Cedeno is also a plus defender, and there is no excuse to play Neifi over Cedeno. None.

[goonys evil twin]

As of 8/26/05 Cedeno hit .259 with a homer and three RBI's in the Majors.

Cedeno has a career minor league (6 seasons) average of .254

Cedeno has a career minor league OBP of .335

I may be in the minority here, but I just don't see this as Major Leauge ready.

Bash Baker for use of Perez, that is fine, but please give me a better option at SS once Nomar got hurt last year.

I read I like Perez, I just don't like how he was use. That is great, who on last years team would you have filled that hole at SS with?

 

As of 8/26 how many at bats did he have? 50, spread out over 4 months. You can't tell if that is major league ready.

 

Nomar went down early, and Neifi stepped up initially. It was the right call at the time. He was the backup. But Neifi's initial success quickly turned to crap. He had an OBP of .283 in May, .248 in June and .245 in July. He was absolutely terrible, a miserable player who was really hurting the team. Given his history, this should not have been unexpected. During this time, Ronny was killing AAA with an OPS over 900. Immediately following Neifi's return to normalcy, Ronny should have been given the job. At the very least, by the end of June, Ronny should have been starting, given that Neifi's season long numbers had already disintigrated, and Ronny would have had to be extremely bad, even underperforming his early pro numbers, to be as bad as Neifi.

 

It was pretty simple. Once you realized Neifi was your #1 SS, you should have done whatever possible to find a new SS. He's okay as a bench player, but awful as a starter. Once he's moved to starter because of injury, and you have a AAA player with an OPS of 900+, you go to that AAA player who has a chance of being good, instead of sticking with the veteran who is guaranteed to be god awful.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Let's be clear OPS is the closest simple calculation to figuring out how many runs a team will score not just OBP. This is where I argue Neifi is not as bad as people think. It is obvious he sucks at OBP but he does do many other things at the league average or better for a shortstop-such as defense, club house, slugging etc.

 

Exactly how is "clubhouse" measured?

 

Last year Neifi was 9th out of 11 qualified SS in OPS.

 

He has a .681 OPS for his career.

 

In short, his OPS sucks.

 

He should not be an every day player and he should not be making 2.5 mill/year.

 

And furthermore, when you do suck that badly, you should sign autographs, dammit. If Derrek Lee or Mark Prior don't want to sign...fine by me. They've earned that right. But scrub replacement level shortstops should sign the G**D*** autograph!

[Guest]

In looking at Bowa, Dunston and AGone I was not as much compairing the 4 of them. I was simply showing the numbers (and ages) and saying the Cubs have not had a steller SS in sometime, so basically Perez was giving us the production we as fans should be used to.

And the 79-win team last year was quite a bit better than most teams that Cubs fans under 100 are used to as well. That doesn't mean we should be content with a losing season, just like we shouldn't have to be content with well-below average players having substantial roles on the team.