Kaplan: Cubs 'Trying Hard' for Tejada, won't budge on Pie

[ThePenguin11]

How many top prospects are you willing to give up for Tejada?

 

I would probably give up 3-4 of the guys on most top 10 lists, while maybe throwing in a current bullpen arm and/or another lower ranked prospect.

 

Would you give up Ohman along with Pie, Guzman and Hill? What kind of worries me is that the O's (Stockwell) know who is good and who isn't.

 

I understand where you're coming from, but we can't give Stockstill too much credit here. The Cubs seem to overvalue many of their prospects, and many of them don't seem to pan out. They rarely ever call up the right guys for the right reasons so there's a chance that Stockstill isn't the greatest talent evaluator and believes the hype as much as anyone else.

 

Or he could be really good at what he does. But the point is that we can't assume that were going to get fleeced out of our best prospects because the guy who scouted them (who has a bias for his former players) is helping the O's.

 

In fact, it might even work in the Cubs favor, since Stockstill scouted these guys, he might even overvalue them still.

 

The other thing to factor is that since he's so new in the Baltimore organization, they may not be taking full stock of his opinion in one of the team's biggest ever transactions since he's only been there for like six weeks.

 

To answer your question, I'd probably hold off on Guzman at first, and see where that goes. If we're throwing all that at them, they'd need to take back salary or send back prospects or serviceable veterans with low, low salaries.

Edited January 6, 2006 by ThePenguin11

[Gunned]

It just doesn't make any sense for Hendry to sign Jones for three years, say he wants to keep Pierre long-term, and then refuse to trade Pie away.

 

Then again, it's Hendry.

[rawaction]

I'd like to hold onto Pie, but he can't be the sticking point in a potential deal. Prior is more than worth backing away from the table for, Pie, not so much.

 

 

 

What if they insisted on Murton and let the Cubs keep Pie? Would you then start Felix in LF this year? If Hendry was willing to call him up last summer, would he give him a shot at a less important position this year? (less important because with Tejada, the lineup can live with subpar production from LF)

 

I'd rather give him more time in the minors, but his age and experience wouldn't be unprecedented for a call-up, and there really aren't many options to start instead of him, if Murton were gone.

 

No. Might as well go after a guy like Mench or Ibanez who seemingly can be had somewhat easily. I'd probably rather trade Murton than Pie. But I wouldn't hesitate to trade Felix if he was the centerpiece (i.e. best player given up) of a Tejada deal.

 

How many top prospects are you willing to give up for Tejada?

 

3-4. It would have to be the right combo, though.

 

Pie OR Murton (not both)

Hill OR Williams (not both)

Just 1 of Gallagher, Marmol, Marshall (if I had to)

I would give up any combo of 2 of the names above and any 2 other prospects though.

 

I'd hesistate to trade Cedeno, as I said earlier.

[goonys evil twin]

How many top prospects are you willing to give up for Tejada?

 

I would probably give up 3-4 of the guys on most top 10 lists, while maybe throwing in a current bullpen arm and/or another lower ranked prospect.

 

Would you give up Ohman along with Pie, Guzman and Hill? What kind of worries me is that the O's (Stockwell) know who is good and who isn't.

 

He shouldn't know anymore or less than what the Cubs know. I'm hoping he'll have some input on the deal and possibly even overvalue some of his guys that he takes pride in drafting. Throw in Dope, Harvey.

 

I'd have to strongly consider Ohman, Pie, Guzman and Hill, and probably would trade them.

[Bull]

I don't think this is a big deal. I bet that the deal has evolved from Prior for Tejada (Hendry said no) to Prior for Tejada and Bedard (Duqette said no) to Prior and Pie for Tejada and Bedard (Hendry said no). I don't think it's a matter of Hendry being more willing to deal Prior for Tejada, it's a matter of getting enough in return for what he's giving up on both sides.

With all the Patterson talk, sounds like Prior and C-Pat for Tejada and Bedard might get it done. I hope not.

 

I might be able to live with that deal. I have to know that Bedard is going to be sure fire 2 though.

 

No Prior, No Prior, No Prior.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I think the reason that Pie is a sticking point is because the Orioles want Prior and Pie. If you read the threads at Orioles Hangout and put together all the pieces, it seems that Hendry wants Bedard back in any deal in which he includes Prior. The Orioles, then in return want Pie along with Prior if they are going to include Bedard, and that leads us to the sticking point.

 

If trading Pie gets Tejada and we also keep Prior, then it's a good deal. But if to make the deal work, we have to offer Prior and Pie, I'm glad that Hendry ins't budging.

[jtownie]

How many top prospects are you willing to give up for Tejada?

 

I would probably give up 3-4 of the guys on most top 10 lists, while maybe throwing in a current bullpen arm and/or another lower ranked prospect.

 

Would you give up Ohman along with Pie, Guzman and Hill? What kind of worries me is that the O's (Stockwell) know who is good and who isn't.

 

He shouldn't know anymore or less than what the Cubs know. I'm hoping he'll have some input on the deal and possibly even overvalue some of his guys that he takes pride in drafting. Throw in Dope, Harvey.

 

I'd have to strongly consider Ohman, Pie, Guzman and Hill, and probably would trade them.

 

Like you said Gooney, if anything Stockstill could work in the Cubs favor due to pride. What does it say about his ability to scout talent if he tells the O's management that the Cubs prospects aren't all that good?

[CuseCubFan69]

I don't think this is a big deal. I bet that the deal has evolved from Prior for Tejada (Hendry said no) to Prior for Tejada and Bedard (Duqette said no) to Prior and Pie for Tejada and Bedard (Hendry said no). I don't think it's a matter of Hendry being more willing to deal Prior for Tejada, it's a matter of getting enough in return for what he's giving up on both sides.

With all the Patterson talk, sounds like Prior and C-Pat for Tejada and Bedard might get it done. I hope not.

 

I might be able to live with that deal. I have to know that Bedard is going to be sure fire 2 though.

 

No Prior, No Prior, No Prior.

 

Why? It's not like Maddux ever did anything after the Cubs traded him!

 

 

Seriously though, I'm just not a big Prior fan as many are. I don't like what I see from him when teams are hitting him. Granted, he has a lot success and potential to be a wonderful pitcher but IMO he's a quitter when he's being beat. Again...this is my opinion.

[The Voice of Reason]

If you were the Orioles, would you trade Tejada for Pie and Hill? Two unproven kids for an all-star shortstop and former MVP?

 

I'm going to answer this question one more time, with a different angle. "If you were the Orioles, would you..."

 

First off, I'm not the Orioles, I could care less about the Orioles and they can fall off the face of the Earth for all I care.

 

The question wasn't whether I could put together a fair trade for both teams. It was whether I would include Pie in a deal for Tejada. Nothing more. Therefore, why are you asking me if I would make that trade if I was Baltimore?

 

Posts like the one you just made where you attempt to insult posters by making assumptions or twisting the argument into something it's not is really not very cool.

 

I like Tejada. I'd love to have him. But, not at the expense of Prior or Zambrano. I've made my claim that Boston was overpaying by offering Manny, Clement and cash. If Baltimore feels like they deserve more in return for less, I'm looking elsewhere.

 

I wasn't "twisting the argument" or trying to insult anyone. I don't want Prior included in a Tejada trade either. Just my humble opinion, but I don't think the Orioles would trade Tejada for Hill and Pie. Consideration of the fairness of a trade for both sides, is, I believe, a fair component in discussing potential transactions.

[Cubzfan64]

Any deal the Cubs might make to get Tejada (and I don't think I would make the deal if it takes Prior personally) HAS to include the ability for the Cubs to lock up Tejada for a minimum of 3 years and preferably 4. If we trade talent for talent, we better get more than one year of it back.

 

As far as anyone in our minor league system, there should be NO untouchables as far as I'm concerned. Any trade proposal that improves the ballclub is worth a look to me - especially if it involves getting back proven talent for unproven talent.

 

It would be different if the Cubs had a history in the last 5-10 years of evaluating their own minor league talent effectively, but I've seen little to no proof of that at all. Basically I don't believe ANY hype the Cubs organization generates concerning any of their minor league prospects.

[BigbadB]

Seriously though, I'm just not a big Prior fan as many are. I don't like what I see from him when teams are hitting him. Granted, he has a lot success and potential to be a wonderful pitcher but IMO he's a quitter when he's being beat. Again...this is my opinion.

 

But, if you honestly wanted to move Prior, wouldn't it make more sense to open up the bidding for his services to the other 29 teams in the league rather than just the Orioles, who don't seem to be giving Prior the respect he deserves?

 

What would other teams pay for a guy who has #1 stuff? Would Phily give up Abreu, who basically is as good or better than Tejada at a position on the field that the Cubs have a much bigger hole?

 

Right now, Baltimore is rejecting deals for Tejada that seem lopsided in their favor. If Prior is going to get dealt, I'd like to see a deal that was lopsided in our favor rather than the other way around.

[Gunned]

Seriously though, I'm just not a big Prior fan as many are. I don't like what I see from him when teams are hitting him. Granted, he has a lot success and potential to be a wonderful pitcher but IMO he's a quitter when he's being beat. Again...this is my opinion.

 

But, if you honestly wanted to move Prior, wouldn't it make more sense to open up the bidding for his services to the other 29 teams in the league rather than just the Orioles, who don't seem to be giving Prior the respect he deserves?

 

What would other teams pay for a guy who has #1 stuff? Would Phily give up Abreu, who basically is as good or better than Tejada at a position on the field that the Cubs have a much bigger hole?

 

As bad as Jacque Jones is, that's arguable.

[goonys evil twin]

Seriously though, I'm just not a big Prior fan as many are. I don't like what I see from him when teams are hitting him. Granted, he has a lot success and potential to be a wonderful pitcher but IMO he's a quitter when he's being beat. Again...this is my opinion.

 

Wow, that's just...I don't even know how to respond to that.

 

You're saying you aren't high on Prior because of your perception of his body language on games when he is being hit (which, if you look at his results, is pretty rare anyway).

 

I might be able to live with that deal. I have to know that Bedard is going to be sure fire 2 though.

 

The problem is you can't, and don't know that about Bedard. He's older than Prior, and not nearly as accomplished. I just can't see how people can have bad things to say about Prior, and then think Bedard can be anywhere close to an adequate replacement. Anything bad you can say about Prior is doubled or tripled when talking about the other guy. He hasn't thrown a healthy 200+ innings? He's been bothered by injuries? He's been ineffective from time to time? He has yet to live up to the hype? Any of that stuff people try and lay on Prior can be said about the other guy, who, again, is older, and therefore has less room for error.

 

This is all just so baffling to me, how the Cubs inclusion of Prior in these talks has actually caused people to start talking bad about the guy, when nobody was complaining after he battled back from a freak broken elbow that many thought was season, if not career, threatening. It literally baffles me how much so many people have turned on Prior. So now the list is Sammy, Wood, Patterson, and Prior. Who will be the next whipping boy who fails to live up to fan's expectations and therefore is discredited and run out the door? It's got to be Zambrano if/when he has a down season, although it could easily be Ramirez if he gets injured again, or maybe Lee if he reverts to career form.

 

I can't believe how little people think of the Cubs players who actually do some good for the team, as opposed to all those replacable role players who continue to be overpaid and overplayed by the Cubs.

[goonys evil twin]

Seriously though, I'm just not a big Prior fan as many are. I don't like what I see from him when teams are hitting him. Granted, he has a lot success and potential to be a wonderful pitcher but IMO he's a quitter when he's being beat. Again...this is my opinion.

 

But, if you honestly wanted to move Prior, wouldn't it make more sense to open up the bidding for his services to the other 29 teams in the league rather than just the Orioles, who don't seem to be giving Prior the respect he deserves?

 

What would other teams pay for a guy who has #1 stuff? Would Phily give up Abreu, who basically is as good or better than Tejada at a position on the field that the Cubs have a much bigger hole?

 

As bad as Jacque Jones is, that's arguable.

 

The Cubs corner OF hole is still bigger than the SS hole.

[CuseCubFan69]

Seriously though, I'm just not a big Prior fan as many are. I don't like what I see from him when teams are hitting him. Granted, he has a lot success and potential to be a wonderful pitcher but IMO he's a quitter when he's being beat. Again...this is my opinion.

 

But, if you honestly wanted to move Prior, wouldn't it make more sense to open up the bidding for his services to the other 29 teams in the league rather than just the Orioles, who don't seem to be giving Prior the respect he deserves?

 

What would other teams pay for a guy who has #1 stuff? Would Phily give up Abreu, who basically is as good or better than Tejada at a position on the field that the Cubs have a much bigger hole?

 

Right now, Baltimore is rejecting deals for Tejada that seem lopsided in their favor. If Prior is going to get dealt, I'd like to see a deal that was lopsided in our favor rather than the other way around.

 

Good point and yes. I just don't see Hendry thinking like that anymore.

[BigbadB]

Actually, I should have mentioned Abreu AND a pitching prospect. That would probably be considered lopsided in our favor. Abreu for Prior is probably about as equal straight up as Tejada for Prior.

 

I wouldn't want to trade Prior straight up for anyone, since it really doesn't make the Cubs any better to strengthen one position while weakening another.

[ThePenguin11]

Seriously though, I'm just not a big Prior fan as many are. I don't like what I see from him when teams are hitting him. Granted, he has a lot success and potential to be a wonderful pitcher but IMO he's a quitter when he's being beat. Again...this is my opinion.

 

But, if you honestly wanted to move Prior, wouldn't it make more sense to open up the bidding for his services to the other 29 teams in the league rather than just the Orioles, who don't seem to be giving Prior the respect he deserves?

 

What would other teams pay for a guy who has #1 stuff? Would Phily give up Abreu, who basically is as good or better than Tejada at a position on the field that the Cubs have a much bigger hole?

 

Right now, Baltimore is rejecting deals for Tejada that seem lopsided in their favor. If Prior is going to get dealt, I'd like to see a deal that was lopsided in our favor rather than the other way around.

 

To quote Homer Simpson: "Exaaaaaaaaaaaaaactly."

[Gunned]

Seriously though, I'm just not a big Prior fan as many are. I don't like what I see from him when teams are hitting him. Granted, he has a lot success and potential to be a wonderful pitcher but IMO he's a quitter when he's being beat. Again...this is my opinion.

 

But, if you honestly wanted to move Prior, wouldn't it make more sense to open up the bidding for his services to the other 29 teams in the league rather than just the Orioles, who don't seem to be giving Prior the respect he deserves?

 

What would other teams pay for a guy who has #1 stuff? Would Phily give up Abreu, who basically is as good or better than Tejada at a position on the field that the Cubs have a much bigger hole?

 

As bad as Jacque Jones is, that's arguable.

 

The Cubs corner OF hole is still bigger than the SS hole.

 

Well, gee, maybe it's not. My mistake.

[goonys evil twin]

Seriously though, I'm just not a big Prior fan as many are. I don't like what I see from him when teams are hitting him. Granted, he has a lot success and potential to be a wonderful pitcher but IMO he's a quitter when he's being beat. Again...this is my opinion.

 

But, if you honestly wanted to move Prior, wouldn't it make more sense to open up the bidding for his services to the other 29 teams in the league rather than just the Orioles, who don't seem to be giving Prior the respect he deserves?

 

What would other teams pay for a guy who has #1 stuff? Would Phily give up Abreu, who basically is as good or better than Tejada at a position on the field that the Cubs have a much bigger hole?

 

As bad as Jacque Jones is, that's arguable.

 

The Cubs corner OF hole is still bigger than the SS hole.

 

Well, gee, maybe it's not. My mistake.

 

Maybe what is not? Jones is like the Neifi of RF, but SS is just one position, and the Cubs have a young prospect capable of putting up better numbers at the position. Corner OF is two spots, and while the Cubs have a young prospect capable of putting up better numbers at the position than Jones, both will have to play anyway.

[cjbucks]

I don't think this is a big deal. I bet that the deal has evolved from Prior for Tejada (Hendry said no) to Prior for Tejada and Bedard (Duqette said no) to Prior and Pie for Tejada and Bedard (Hendry said no). I don't think it's a matter of Hendry being more willing to deal Prior for Tejada, it's a matter of getting enough in return for what he's giving up on both sides.

With all the Patterson talk, sounds like Prior and C-Pat for Tejada and Bedard might get it done. I hope not.

 

I might be able to live with that deal. I have to know that Bedard is going to be sure fire 2 though.

 

No Prior, No Prior, No Prior.

 

Why? It's not like Maddux ever did anything after the Cubs traded him!

 

 

Seriously though, I'm just not a big Prior fan as many are. I don't like what I see from him when teams are hitting him. Granted, he has a lot success and potential to be a wonderful pitcher but IMO he's a quitter when he's being beat. Again...this is my opinion.

 

Maddux wasn't traded he was a free agent.

[BigbadB]

I have another question. Why is Prior even being discussed? He's cheap considering what he offers in production. He can't leave for the next 3 years, and he's one of the most dominant pitchers in baseball when healthy.

 

Why is his name even being discussed? Has he pulled a Todd Walker and made some comments that don't agree with Cub management? Is he a clubhouse cancer?

 

If that's the case, get rid of Hendry and Baker. This club house cancer is going to the turn the Cubs into a bunch of Neifi Perez and Jacque Jones's because they never speak up when management does something they don't like.

 

Quit allowing attitude to dictate who plays on this team and who doesn't. Personally, guys like Walker that make comments that point out basically the same things we scream about on this web site everyday are the kind of guys I'd rather have on this team. For example, if Walker went to the press and said that he thinks it's ridiculous for Neifi to bat in the lead off spot on days that Walker needs a rest, keep talking Walker. Get your point across. Because it's right.

 

Something tells me in the back of my mind that there is a lot of player dissatisfaction going on in that club house. Whether it's over management philosophies, organizational direction, the filling out of a line up card, etc.... I would hope that the guys who are being rumored in trades isn't because they disagree vocally about these things. I would hope that Trib execs would do the right thing and not allow this team to be torn apart because someone doesn't like Dusty.

Edited January 6, 2006 by BigbadB

[CuseCubFan69]

Seriously though, I'm just not a big Prior fan as many are. I don't like what I see from him when teams are hitting him. Granted, he has a lot success and potential to be a wonderful pitcher but IMO he's a quitter when he's being beat. Again...this is my opinion.

 

Wow, that's just...I don't even know how to respond to that.

 

You're saying you aren't high on Prior because of your perception of his body language on games when he is being hit (which, if you look at his results, is pretty rare anyway).

 

I might be able to live with that deal. I have to know that Bedard is going to be sure fire 2 though.

 

The problem is you can't, and don't know that about Bedard. He's older than Prior, and not nearly as accomplished. I just can't see how people can have bad things to say about Prior, and then think Bedard can be anywhere close to an adequate replacement. Anything bad you can say about Prior is doubled or tripled when talking about the other guy. He hasn't thrown a healthy 200+ innings? He's been bothered by injuries? He's been ineffective from time to time? He has yet to live up to the hype? Any of that stuff people try and lay on Prior can be said about the other guy, who, again, is older, and therefore has less room for error.

 

This is all just so baffling to me, how the Cubs inclusion of Prior in these talks has actually caused people to start talking bad about the guy, when nobody was complaining after he battled back from a freak broken elbow that many thought was season, if not career, threatening. It literally baffles me how much so many people have turned on Prior. So now the list is Sammy, Wood, Patterson, and Prior. Who will be the next whipping boy who fails to live up to fan's expectations and therefore is discredited and run out the door? It's got to be Zambrano if/when he has a down season, although it could easily be Ramirez if he gets injured again, or maybe Lee if he reverts to career form.

 

I can't believe how little people think of the Cubs players who actually do some good for the team, as opposed to all those replacable role players who continue to be overpaid and overplayed by the Cubs.

 

I've never been a big Prior fan gooney....never. I think he is going to be a good pitcher but I've never thought he was the second coming so please don't include me in a group that turns on players. I've never been that big on Wood either and that was from the start also. I am against Hendry giving Prior away and I want quaity for him but as I've said before I'd trade any player on the Cubs if it makes them better.

 

I've always thought Z would be dominate and argued that point back when posters debated who's better Z or Cruz.

 

Again, Hendry has to be sure that Bedard is over his injuries and can handle being a #2 or 3 if Wood ever comes back and his job may depend on his making the right decision in this case.

 

I don't believe I have a "Whipping Boy" thing as you have mentioned. I feel less passionate about certain players but never have I had a "Whipping Boy" Unless you consider Macias an actual baseball player of course.

[CuseCubFan69]

Why? It's not like Maddux ever did anything after the Cubs traded him!

 

Maddux wasn't traded he was a free agent.

 

That's right, they gave him away. :D

[BigbadB]

Seriously though, I'm just not a big Prior fan as many are. I don't like what I see from him when teams are hitting him. Granted, he has a lot success and potential to be a wonderful pitcher but IMO he's a quitter when he's being beat. Again...this is my opinion.

 

But, if you honestly wanted to move Prior, wouldn't it make more sense to open up the bidding for his services to the other 29 teams in the league rather than just the Orioles, who don't seem to be giving Prior the respect he deserves?

 

What would other teams pay for a guy who has #1 stuff? Would Phily give up Abreu, who basically is as good or better than Tejada at a position on the field that the Cubs have a much bigger hole?

 

As bad as Jacque Jones is, that's arguable.

 

The Cubs corner OF hole is still bigger than the SS hole.

 

Well, gee, maybe it's not. My mistake.

 

The way I see it is that Murton and Jones make for a decent platoon in one corner spot, and that leaves no one left for the other spot. Cedeno and Neifi can both play SS, therefore the bigger hole in my mind is in the outfield. Cedeno is an unknown commodity just as much as Murton is, also.

[Bull]

 

Why? It's not like Maddux ever did anything after the Cubs traded him!

 

 

Seriously though, I'm just not a big Prior fan as many are. I don't like what I see from him when teams are hitting him. Granted, he has a lot success and potential to be a wonderful pitcher but IMO he's a quitter when he's being beat. Again...this is my opinion.

 

Maddux wasn't traded he was a free agent.

 

He know, he just bein' silly (note that he also said Maddux didn't do anything. Silliness)