Soriano trade RUMORS part d'uh

[BigbadB]

Soriano has a career .500 slugging %. That's in Burrell, Matsui, Floyd, Carlos Lee and Sheffield territory... The Cubs best 2 opb guys are Lee and ARam & I liked to see them score as often as possible. I prefer Soriano over Walker's .441 career slugging % in the 5 hole or Jock Jones batting 5th. And I like Sori's 40 home run potential too. That beats the heck out Walker's 15 homer potential.

 

Bat Murton or Cedeno 2nd. They can probably come close to matching Walker's .355 obp, which is nothing spectacular.

 

But the cost of Williams and maybe others to upgrade to Soriano isn't worth the upgrade.

 

So who do you want batting 5th?

 

With the team we have now, I'd probably put Murton or Jones in the 5th spot, leaning heavily towards Murton. Jones could show an increase in SLG playing in the NL Central, but that's quite a gamble that Hendry was taking. He's mostly a ground ball hitter.

[radarluv1]

Soriano has a career .500 slugging %. That's in Burrell, Matsui, Floyd, Carlos Lee and Sheffield territory... The Cubs best 2 opb guys are Lee and ARam & I liked to see them score as often as possible. I prefer Soriano over Walker's .441 career slugging % in the 5 hole or Jock Jones batting 5th. And I like Sori's 40 home run potential too. That beats the heck out Walker's 15 homer potential.

 

Bat Murton or Cedeno 2nd. They can probably come close to matching Walker's .355 obp, which is nothing spectacular.

 

But the cost of Williams and maybe others to upgrade to Soriano isn't worth the upgrade.

 

So who do you want batting 5th?

 

With the team we have now, I'd probably put Murton or Jones in the 5th spot, leaning heavily towards Murton. Jones could show an increase in SLG playing in the NL Central, but that's quite a gamble that Hendry was taking. He's mostly a ground ball hitter.

 

thats uhh, not good. :x

[CubfaninCA]

Too bad that Coletti has a poor relationship w/ the Cubs. It sounds like Odalis Perez can be had on the cheap, especially if LA resigns Weaver. Then Williams could become more expendable, although I really like him.

 

I think Jock will be solid versus righties, but would much prefer him batting 6th and the Cubs getting one more slugger. :(

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Too bad that Coletti has a poor relationship w/ the Cubs. It sounds like Odalis Perez can be had on the cheap, especially if LA resigns Weaver. Then Williams could become more expendable, although I really like him.

 

I think Jock will be solid versus righties, but would much prefer him batting 6th and the Cubs getting one more slugger. :(

 

But, if we trade Walker's 2.5 for Soriano's 10, I don't know that we could afford Odalis's 7.75.

 

Williams is a renewable contract, so he's cheap as well as effective.

 

I'd like another bat too...but if I'm trading young players or prospects, I want a better long term value than Soriano or I want one that is cheap in regard to player cost. Soriano is neither.

 

If Luis Gonzalez could be had for a mid-level prospect, I might take him as a decent option.

 

I'd still attempt to dangle Hill and Pie with others to the Reds for Dunn.

[Jehrico]

Some things to keep in mind about Soriano:

 

1) Soriano's away OBP in 2003: .350. In 2004, 291. In 2005, it dropped to .265. Yes, that is a .265 OBP. Worse than Neifi.

 

2) His OBP without splits over those three years has gone from .338 to .324 to .309.

 

That is an alarming downward trend.

 

3) Who knows how old he really is, there are doubts his listed age which would have him turn 30 at the end of the week is true.

 

4) Someone said his defense was as bad as Walkers, I beg to differ. He makes Walker look like Ryno Jr. He's a butcher. Walker is just below average.

 

5) He refuses to switch to a position that isn't as important defensively, as he insists on being a butcher there, as his stats aren't as impressive for an OFer as they are a 2bman.

 

6) He's stated he'll walk at the end of the year and return to the AL. He'd be a one year rental.

 

7) He makes $10 million. (more than DLee, ARam...) He's getting paid for past production, his numbers the last few years do not indicate he's inclined to repeat his '02 or '03 numbers.

 

He's the most overrated player in baseball, IMHO. I hope Hendry steers clear of him. His peak was much higher than Walkers, but it was only sustained for a very short time and is well past. Sammy was a 5-tool player at one time. In '04, he was still able to put up a .500 slg, but that was about all he had, and as we all remember, he was horrible despite his .500 slugging. Just because Soriano can put up a .500 slugging doesn't mean he's better than Walker. I'd be more upset if we traded for him to man 2nd than I was when we signed Jones even if we didn't have to give up anything that hurts.

 

One reason that some teams never can get over the hump is they don't understand the concept of paying for future production vs past production. Paying Soriano $10 million is paying him $10 mil for his past performance. No one is ever going to get anywhere near $10 million in production from him ever again.

[CubfaninCA]

Too bad that Coletti has a poor relationship w/ the Cubs. It sounds like Odalis Perez can be had on the cheap, especially if LA resigns Weaver. Then Williams could become more expendable, although I really like him.

 

I think Jock will be solid versus righties, but would much prefer him batting 6th and the Cubs getting one more slugger. :(

 

But, if we trade Walker's 2.5 for Soriano's 10, I don't know that we could afford Odalis's 7.75.

 

Williams is a renewable contract, so he's cheap as well as effective.

 

I'd like another bat too...but if I'm trading young players or prospects, I want a better long term value than Soriano or I want one that is cheap in regard to player cost. Soriano is neither.

 

If Luis Gonzalez could be had for a mid-level prospect, I might take him as a decent option.

 

I'd still attempt to dangle Hill and Pie with others to the Reds for Dunn.

 

I think the 5 hitter could come from LF and it won't be Murton.

 

I'd love for the Cubs to get Dunn, but can't see Cincy dealing him to the Cubs. Is Dunn a FA after this year?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Too bad that Coletti has a poor relationship w/ the Cubs. It sounds like Odalis Perez can be had on the cheap, especially if LA resigns Weaver. Then Williams could become more expendable, although I really like him.

 

I think Jock will be solid versus righties, but would much prefer him batting 6th and the Cubs getting one more slugger. :(

 

But, if we trade Walker's 2.5 for Soriano's 10, I don't know that we could afford Odalis's 7.75.

 

Williams is a renewable contract, so he's cheap as well as effective.

 

I'd like another bat too...but if I'm trading young players or prospects, I want a better long term value than Soriano or I want one that is cheap in regard to player cost. Soriano is neither.

 

If Luis Gonzalez could be had for a mid-level prospect, I might take him as a decent option.

 

I'd still attempt to dangle Hill and Pie with others to the Reds for Dunn.

 

I think the 5 hitter could come from LF and it won't be Murton.

 

I'd love for the Cubs to get Dunn, but can't see Cincy dealing him to the Cubs. Is Dunn a FA after this year?

 

No Dunn has two more arbitration years.

 

I don't think the Reds would want to trade Dunn to the Cubs, but I also think an offer of Pie + Hill + Gallagher could be hard for them to pass up.

[RockTheIvy]

Too bad that Coletti has a poor relationship w/ the Cubs. It sounds like Odalis Perez can be had on the cheap, especially if LA resigns Weaver. Then Williams could become more expendable, although I really like him.

 

I think Jock will be solid versus righties, but would much prefer him batting 6th and the Cubs getting one more slugger. :(

 

But, if we trade Walker's 2.5 for Soriano's 10, I don't know that we could afford Odalis's 7.75.

 

Williams is a renewable contract, so he's cheap as well as effective.

 

I'd like another bat too...but if I'm trading young players or prospects, I want a better long term value than Soriano or I want one that is cheap in regard to player cost. Soriano is neither.

 

If Luis Gonzalez could be had for a mid-level prospect, I might take him as a decent option.

 

I'd still attempt to dangle Hill and Pie with others to the Reds for Dunn.

 

I think the 5 hitter could come from LF and it won't be Murton.

 

I'd love for the Cubs to get Dunn, but can't see Cincy dealing him to the Cubs. Is Dunn a FA after this year?

 

No Dunn has two more arbitration years.

 

I don't think the Reds would want to trade Dunn to the Cubs, but I also think an offer of Pie + Hill + Gallagher could be hard for them to pass up.

 

Put Dunn in LF and have a Murton/Jones platoon in RF? Wicked.

[ManCrushOnNomar]

More Dunn trade ideas... wonderful.

[Magnetic Curses]

Some things to keep in mind about Soriano:

 

1) Soriano's away OBP in 2003: .350. In 2004, 291. In 2005, it dropped to .265. Yes, that is a .265 OBP. Worse than Neifi.

 

2) His OBP without splits over those three years has gone from .338 to .324 to .309.

 

That is an alarming downward trend.

 

3) Who knows how old he really is, there are doubts his listed age which would have him turn 30 at the end of the week is true.

 

4) Someone said his defense was as bad as Walkers, I beg to differ. He makes Walker look like Ryno Jr. He's a butcher. Walker is just below average.

 

5) He refuses to switch to a position that isn't as important defensively, as he insists on being a butcher there, as his stats aren't as impressive for an OFer as they are a 2bman.

 

6) He's stated he'll walk at the end of the year and return to the AL. He'd be a one year rental.

 

7) He makes $10 million. (more than DLee, ARam...) He's getting paid for past production, his numbers the last few years do not indicate he's inclined to repeat his '02 or '03 numbers.

 

He's the most overrated player in baseball, IMHO. I hope Hendry steers clear of him. His peak was much higher than Walkers, but it was only sustained for a very short time and is well past. Sammy was a 5-tool player at one time. In '04, he was still able to put up a .500 slg, but that was about all he had, and as we all remember, he was horrible despite his .500 slugging. Just because Soriano can put up a .500 slugging doesn't mean he's better than Walker. I'd be more upset if we traded for him to man 2nd than I was when we signed Jones even if we didn't have to give up anything that hurts.

 

One reason that some teams never can get over the hump is they don't understand the concept of paying for future production vs past production. Paying Soriano $10 million is paying him $10 mil for his past performance. No one is ever going to get anywhere near $10 million in production from him ever again.

 

if soriano can ever raise his OBP to a respectable level, he'd be a very good player. as it stands, for all his talent, he's a waste of a lot of money.

[Scotti]

Why is it that certain players are "going to return to their career (or three-year) norms" while others are washed up at 30?

[Magnetic Curses]

Why is it that certain players are "going to return to their career (or three-year) norms" while others are washed up at 30?

 

it has to do with trends. i wouldn't necessarily agree that soriano will never return to his career norms, but i think he needs to improve his plate discipline over anything. i wouldn't care that he's a butcher in the field if he got on base. this is a stat that he's never had, and i don't want him if he doesn't show improvement anyway.

[BigbadB]

Why is it that certain players are "going to return to their career (or three-year) norms" while others are washed up at 30?

 

Are you comparing Jones and Soriano? I have only heard a few people state that Jacque Jones will return to his career norms. One of those people seemed to have a pretty good understanding of why Jones' numbers have slipped. I believe it had to do with a nagging injury and the death of a relative (dad?).

 

I can buy into a "return" to career norms. Aramis Ramirez hadn't set career norms when he joined the Cubs, but I watched him play enough to know that he had a very special skill. I saw how painful it was for him to play on that bad ankle in 2002. Aramis is now blowing his awesome 2001 season out of the water production-wise.

 

Will Jones revert back to career norms? I don't like his chances. He's a ground ball hitter that will be facing pitchers he's never seen. He is moving to a very hitter friendly division, but only Cincy will be sending out a poor starting rotation on a regular basis.

[Scotti]

Why is it that certain players are "going to return to their career (or three-year) norms" while others are washed up at 30?

 

Are you comparing Jones and Soriano?

 

No.

[goonys evil twin]

Will Jones revert back to career norms? I don't like his chances.

 

Even if he did he'd still be a terrible option for RF. His career numbers aren't good.

[Scotti]

Why is it that certain players are "going to return to their career (or three-year) norms" while others are washed up at 30?

 

it has to do with trends. i wouldn't necessarily agree that soriano will never return to his career norms, but i think he needs to improve his plate discipline over anything. i wouldn't care that he's a butcher in the field if he got on base. this is a stat that he's never had, and i don't want him if he doesn't show improvement anyway.

 

2001 .304, 2002 .332, 2003 .338, 2004 .324, 2005 .309. There is a TWO-year trend down. I don't find two-year trends very significant w/out any attached reason for such a trend.

 

On September 3rd of last year Soriano was at .321 for his OBP. If he can do it for 5 months he can do it for 6. His "trend" isn't really much of a concern for me.

[CuseCubFan69]

What were Soriano's pitches per AB last year?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

What were Soriano's pitches per AB last year?

 

3.65 the last 2 years, 3.64 career. That was 95th among qualified hitters.

[CuseCubFan69]

What were Soriano's pitches per AB last year?

 

3.65 the last 2 years, 3.64 career. That was 95th among qualified hitters.

 

95th best or 95th worst? Oh yeah, thanks!

[Transmogrified Tiger]

What were Soriano's pitches per AB last year?

 

3.65 the last 2 years, 3.64 career. That was 95th among qualified hitters.

 

95th best or 95th worst? Oh yeah, thanks!

 

95th of 148

[CubinNY]

Why is it that certain players are "going to return to their career (or three-year) norms" while others are washed up at 30?

 

it has to do with trends. i wouldn't necessarily agree that soriano will never return to his career norms, but i think he needs to improve his plate discipline over anything. i wouldn't care that he's a butcher in the field if he got on base. this is a stat that he's never had, and i don't want him if he doesn't show improvement anyway.

 

2001 .304, 2002 .332, 2003 .338, 2004 .324, 2005 .309. There is a TWO-year trend down. I don't find two-year trends very significant w/out any attached reason for such a trend.

 

On September 3rd of last year Soriano was at .321 for his OBP. If he can do it for 5 months he can do it for 6. His "trend" isn't really much of a concern for me.

 

If you want to get a grasp on his OBP you are going to have to look at his BA becuase his high in walks was 38 in 03. Since 2002 (approximately the second half of his career) his batting average has dropped EVERY YEAR from a high of .300 to .268 last year. Keep in mind too, that he played 80 games in a hitters heaven. Add on to the fact that he will make 10 mill and he is radioactive.

[CuseCubFan69]

What were Soriano's pitches per AB last year?

 

3.65 the last 2 years, 3.64 career. That was 95th among qualified hitters.

 

95th best or 95th worst? Oh yeah, thanks!

 

95th of 148

 

Is that with 450 AB's or more or whatever it takes to be eligible to win the batting title?

 

95th isn't as bad as I thought it was going to be.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

What were Soriano's pitches per AB last year?

 

3.65 the last 2 years, 3.64 career. That was 95th among qualified hitters.

 

95th best or 95th worst? Oh yeah, thanks!

 

95th of 148

 

Is that with 450 AB's or more or whatever it takes to be eligible to win the batting title?

 

yes

[Scotti]

If you want to get a grasp on his OBP you are going to have to look at his BA becuase his high in walks was 38 in 03. Since 2002 (approximately the second half of his career) his batting average has dropped EVERY YEAR from a high of .300 to .268 last year. Keep in mind too, that he played 80 games in a hitters heaven. Add on to the fact that he will make 10 mill and he is radioactive.

 

I don't think there is such a thing as getting a grasp on Soriano. While with NY he put up MONSTER road stats (Yankee Stadium is not friendly to RHH). One would assume that he would have put up monster numbers at a hitter's park both home and away but he didn't (and if he did he would NOT be available).

 

Did he stop taking pitches? No. Has he slowed down? No. Did his power diminish? No.

 

He is what he is. A very good offensive player with power and speed. If he added OBP he would be a great player but there's no reason to expect him to suddenly go Bonds on you. He is what he is.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Yankee Stadium is not friendly to RHH

 

Boy, ARod (351/448/666/1.114), Sheff (300/381/534/915), and Jeter (354/444/522/966) sure did prove that to be true last year.

 

Good hitters will hit no matter where they are playing.