The "HAWK" and the HOF...

[Bergy92]

Not sure if you guys have read the article yet or not...

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=rogers_phil&id=2274444

 

I certainly hope he gets in. I remember those days as a kid watching him on WGN and just knew that he could turn the wind around for a homer. What a fun player to watch and good role model. Anyways, here's hoping he gets in.

 

btw, does anyone know how close he has been in the past?

[CuseCubFan69]

Somebody slap me because when I read this I thought it was about Hawk Harrelson getting inducted to the Hall as an announcer.

[Magnetic Curses]

Not sure if you guys have read the article yet or not...

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=rogers_phil&id=2274444

 

I certainly hope he gets in. I remember those days as a kid watching him on WGN and just knew that he could turn the wind around for a homer. What a fun player to watch and good role model. Anyways, here's hoping he gets in.

 

btw, does anyone know how close he has been in the past?

 

i love the hawk, and he was a great defensive player, but he doesn't belong in the hall. he's short on the conventional statistics; hits and home runs, and he's short on OPS and OBP. he didn't strike out a ton, but he didn't walk very much at all. he only came close to .900 twice, and even then he was below.

 

he was a very good player, and people will remember him for 87, but he's not a hall of famer, God Bless Him.

[erik316wttn]

Not sure if you guys have read the article yet or not...

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=rogers_phil&id=2274444

 

I certainly hope he gets in. I remember those days as a kid watching him on WGN and just knew that he could turn the wind around for a homer. What a fun player to watch and good role model. Anyways, here's hoping he gets in.

 

btw, does anyone know how close he has been in the past?

 

i love the hawk, and he was a great defensive player, but he doesn't belong in the hall. he's short on the conventional statistics; hits and home runs, and he's short on OPS and OBP. he didn't strike out a ton, but he didn't walk very much at all. he only came close to .900 twice, and even then he was below.

 

he was a very good player, and people will remember him for 87, but he's not a hall of famer, God Bless Him.

 

There are plenty of guys in there with less than 2774 hits, Andre's career total.

 

Sabrematitians would cringe at his career .323 OBP, but it was a different game then and OBP wasn't valued as much then as it is now. Also, 438 career home runs is/was a much more significant number then than it is now, especially seeing as he played most of his prime years in the 80's and early 90's, when 35 home runs would often be in the top 3 in the league.

 

Man, Andre gave me some of my earliest baseball memories. I remember him with something like 4 IBB's in one game. I remember the grand slam he hit to tie the game at 4 against the Pirates, only for the Cubs to lose it in 10. I remember a game he had against the Braves where he hit the game tying and go-ahead homers. I remember many a mistake pitch up around his eyes that ended up on Waveland Avenue. I remember runners stopping dead in their tracks at third base not wanting to force a throw. I remember his meltdown where he got ejected then threw stuff on the field. I remember the game face. Oh, the game face. Top 3 I've ever seen are Dave Stewart, him, and Glenallen Hill.

 

One of the best players in the game when he was in his prime, and he let his play, not his mouth, do all his talking for him.

 

You'd get my vote anyday, Andre.

[Magnetic Curses]

Not sure if you guys have read the article yet or not...

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=rogers_phil&id=2274444

 

I certainly hope he gets in. I remember those days as a kid watching him on WGN and just knew that he could turn the wind around for a homer. What a fun player to watch and good role model. Anyways, here's hoping he gets in.

 

btw, does anyone know how close he has been in the past?

 

i love the hawk, and he was a great defensive player, but he doesn't belong in the hall. he's short on the conventional statistics; hits and home runs, and he's short on OPS and OBP. he didn't strike out a ton, but he didn't walk very much at all. he only came close to .900 twice, and even then he was below.

 

he was a very good player, and people will remember him for 87, but he's not a hall of famer, God Bless Him.

 

There are plenty of guys in there with less than 2774 hits, Andre's career total.

 

Sabrematitians would cringe at his career .323 OBP, but it was a different game then and OBP wasn't valued as much then as it is now. Also, 438 career home runs is/was a much more significant number then than it is now, especially seeing as he played most of his prime years in the 80's and early 90's, when 35 home runs would often be in the top 3 in the league.

 

Man, Andre gave me some of my earliest baseball memories. I remember him with something like 4 IBB's in one game. I remember the grand slam he hit to tie the game at 4 against the Pirates, only for the Cubs to lose it in 10. I remember a game he had against the Braves where he hit the game tying and go-ahead homers. I remember many a mistake pitch up around his eyes that ended up on Waveland Avenue. I remember runners stopping dead in their tracks at third base not wanting to force a throw. I remember his meltdown where he got ejected then threw stuff on the field. I remember the game face. Oh, the game face. Top 3 I've ever seen are Dave Stewart, him, and Glenallen Hill.

 

One of the best players in the game when he was in his prime, and he let his play, not his mouth, do all his talking for him.

 

You'd get my vote anyday, Andre.

 

right fielders just don't make it in with his numbers.

 

yes, he played hard, yes, he was my favorite player growing up, yes, he should have his jersey retired at wrigley.

 

no, he doesn't belong in the hall.

[Omar]

Somebody slap me because when I read this I thought it was about Hawk Harrelson getting inducted to the Hall as an announcer.

 

MORE LIEK HALL OF LAME M I RITE?!

[rocket]

I could be wrong, but I think Hawk is already in as an announcer.

[SouthSideRyan]

I could be wrong, but I think Hawk is already in as an announcer.

 

LINK

 

Doesn't look like it.

[Blizzau]

Not sure if you guys have read the article yet or not...

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=rogers_phil&id=2274444

 

I certainly hope he gets in. I remember those days as a kid watching him on WGN and just knew that he could turn the wind around for a homer. What a fun player to watch and good role model. Anyways, here's hoping he gets in.

 

btw, does anyone know how close he has been in the past?

 

If I recall correctly, Hawk received about 50% of the vote last year, which was a significant jump from previous years.

[NorthsideAvenger]

Not sure if you guys have read the article yet or not...

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=rogers_phil&id=2274444

 

I certainly hope he gets in. I remember those days as a kid watching him on WGN and just knew that he could turn the wind around for a homer. What a fun player to watch and good role model. Anyways, here's hoping he gets in.

 

btw, does anyone know how close he has been in the past?

 

i love the hawk, and he was a great defensive player, but he doesn't belong in the hall. he's short on the conventional statistics; hits and home runs, and he's short on OPS and OBP. he didn't strike out a ton, but he didn't walk very much at all. he only came close to .900 twice, and even then he was below.

 

he was a very good player, and people will remember him for 87, but he's not a hall of famer, God Bless Him.

 

There are plenty of guys in there with less than 2774 hits, Andre's career total.

 

Sabrematitians would cringe at his career .323 OBP, but it was a different game then and OBP wasn't valued as much then as it is now. Also, 438 career home runs is/was a much more significant number then than it is now, especially seeing as he played most of his prime years in the 80's and early 90's, when 35 home runs would often be in the top 3 in the league.

 

Man, Andre gave me some of my earliest baseball memories. I remember him with something like 4 IBB's in one game. I remember the grand slam he hit to tie the game at 4 against the Pirates, only for the Cubs to lose it in 10. I remember a game he had against the Braves where he hit the game tying and go-ahead homers. I remember many a mistake pitch up around his eyes that ended up on Waveland Avenue. I remember runners stopping dead in their tracks at third base not wanting to force a throw. I remember his meltdown where he got ejected then threw stuff on the field. I remember the game face. Oh, the game face. Top 3 I've ever seen are Dave Stewart, him, and Glenallen Hill.

 

One of the best players in the game when he was in his prime, and he let his play, not his mouth, do all his talking for him.

 

You'd get my vote anyday, Andre.

 

Let's not forget the 314 STOLEN BASES "The Hawk" had as a player. Before the "crap turf" in Montreal shorten his career, Dawson was clearly an impact player. But, alas Montreal killed Dawson's chances at the HOF. I mean, if he had played in Chicago (or anywhere else, instead of Montreal) this WOULDN'T be a debate.

 

I love "The Hawk", he is a symbol of my childhood, opening packs of baseball cards in front of the tube, hoping to pull a Dawson card out, and then watch as "The Hawk" eyed his pitch, were some of the greatest moments in my childhood. But, (sighs) Dawson is not a HOF player. And that makes me :( .

[bhogg]

I understand that I'm very much in the minority here, and I'm sure many of you will enjoy ripping this post to threads, but it's cool.

 

To me, the HoF is about the fans. Who else on the face of the earth gives a flying fart whether or not XYZ player is in the museum? Why do I care? Because I plan on going back to Cooperstown (I went last season for ryno). When I pay thousands of dollars for room, food, tickets, etc; I want to see the baseball heros of my youth. I imagine most people are the same way.

 

Now, don't get me wrong, some of the coolest stuff is the baseball stuff from the late 1800s - early 1900s, but for my money I want my guys. I want the Mantles, Mays, and Sniders of my day --- Sandberg, Dawson, Rice, Sutter, Gossage, etc.

 

I want to walk my son through the hall of fame, see an item of Andre's and tell my son about those days of opening cards in front of tube, watching the Hawk jack eye high fast balls out onto waveland, crush game tying grandslams against the buccos, and throw beebees from RF to nail would be run scorers.

 

There was not a finer ball player in the late 70s to late 80s (save for Michael Jack Schmidt).

 

I don't think Dawson will ever get voted in, but I surely hope it happens and I'll watch attentively each year during the HoF induction results.

[GaryWoods]

Dawson's problem is one shared by several current OF candidates: Too much parity. It's tough to say Dawson should go in without also saying that Jim Rice, Dave Parker, and Dale Murphy should also go in. Heck, even Chili Davis compares favorably to those guys when you look at his career stats; he dropped off after one year with just 3 votes (not saying Davis was anywhere near as Hall-worthy as the other guys, just noticed that BR had him listed as similar to some of them and was surprised to look at his overall numbers).

 

 

btw, does anyone know how close he has been in the past?

 

 

If I recall correctly, Hawk received about 50% of the vote last year, which was a significant jump from previous years.

 

Not much of a jump. He got 45% in 2002, 50% in '03 and '04, and 52% last year. Moving in the right direction, for sure, but hardly by leaps and bounds.

 

Rice seems to have the better shot right now, having been named on 59% of the ballots in his 11th year of eligibility last year. Which is somewhat unfortunate; while he was easily the best hitter of the four named for both power and average, he's also far and away the worst fielder and runner of the group.

 

Parker and Murphy will probably drop off in a year or two. Murphy's lack of support stems from his sharp dropoff at a relatively early age, and the fact that he's a Mormon (just kidding).

 

Parker is hurt by the fact that he fell down in Wrigley Field and allowed Ron Cey to waddle around the bases for an inside-the-park home run in 1983. His inconsistant play in the early 80's, his sometimes surly demeanor, and his alleged involvment in the Pittsburgh drug ring didn't help either. He had the most overall talent of this group, though. If he had kept his nose clean, he might have ranked ahead of Dave Winfield as the best overall outfielder of the era.

 

Man, I didn't mean to be so windy. I'm worn out from all that thinking!

[JeffH]

Any discussion of one-time Expo outfielders and the Hall of Fame begins and ends with the great Tim Raines.

[minnesotacubsfan]

if joe friggen morgan can be in the hall, so can Hawk.....

[Magnetic Curses]

if joe friggen morgan can be in the hall, so can Hawk.....

 

as much as it pains me to say it: joe morgan was the superior player that set the offensive standard for all modern 2nd basemen to be judged.

[CubinNY]

if joe friggen morgan can be in the hall, so can Hawk.....

 

as much as it pains me to say it: joe morgan was the superior player that set the offensive standard for all modern 2nd basemen to be judged.

 

That's the thing that is so shocking. He is a sabermatrician's wet dream. Yet, he still preaches old fashioned baseball.

 

How Ironic.

[Magnetic Curses]

if joe friggen morgan can be in the hall, so can Hawk.....

 

as much as it pains me to say it: joe morgan was the superior player that set the offensive standard for all modern 2nd basemen to be judged.

 

That's the thing that is so shocking. He is a sabermatrician's wet dream. Yet, he still preaches old fashioned baseball.

 

How Ironic.

 

john kruk, too.

 

it took the anti-moneyball player to finally champion the cause.

 

if i see corey patterson running a successful team in 15 years while bobby abreu is doing moronic commentary for baseball tonight, i'll marvel at the way history continues to repeat itself.

[GaryWoods]

if joe friggen morgan can be in the hall, so can Hawk.....

 

as much as it pains me to say it: joe morgan was the superior player that set the offensive standard for all modern 2nd basemen to be judged.

 

Agreed, the position is the key. If Dawson were a 2B and Morgan were an OF, neither of them would have made been listed on the ballot for two years; Dawson because he'd have been a first-year selection, and Morgan because he'd have dropped off with about 7 votes.

[treebird]

if joe friggen morgan can be in the hall, so can Hawk.....

 

as much as it pains me to say it: joe morgan was the superior player that set the offensive standard for all modern 2nd basemen to be judged.

 

Agreed, the position is the key. If Dawson were a 2B and Morgan were an OF, neither of them would have made been listed on the ballot for two years; Dawson because he'd have been a first-year selection, and Morgan because he'd have dropped off with about 7 votes.

 

joe morgan ops+ 132

jim rice ops+ 128

[GaryWoods]

if joe friggen morgan can be in the hall, so can Hawk.....

 

as much as it pains me to say it: joe morgan was the superior player that set the offensive standard for all modern 2nd basemen to be judged.

 

Agreed, the position is the key. If Dawson were a 2B and Morgan were an OF, neither of them would have made been listed on the ballot for two years; Dawson because he'd have been a first-year selection, and Morgan because he'd have dropped off with about 7 votes.

 

joe morgan ops+ 132

jim rice ops+ 128

 

Good stat, and relevant to intelligent discussion of the true value of players as opposed to their sheer talent.

 

But, I simply don't think HOF voters are that sophisticated yet. Some are, but not nearly enough to swing an election. They would be more likely to look at more simplistic numbers like Morgan's 268 homers and compare him to someone like Jim Wynn, who finished up with 290 and didn't get a single HOF vote.

 

Of course voters do love intangibles like awards and World Series rings, but it's to hard to speculate what a bizarro "Morgan in the outfield" world might be like with a typical 1970s middle infielder inserted into the Reds lineup in place of either Cesar Geronimo, Ken Griffey, or George Foster.

 

By the way, I did a little research on the OPS+ numbers for all the HOF second basemen who have played since the '50s. Morgan's 132 ties him for first with Jackie Robinson; Rod Carew is a close second with 131. Sandberg's is fourth at 114. The next two serious HOF contenders, Alomar and Biggio, are tied at 116. I've never really thought of Jeff Kent as a serious contender because I view him as a power hitter who happens to play second more than a second baseman who hits for power. But just to leave no stone unturned, his OPS+ is 126.

 

I looked at some OF numbers, too, but I don't have time to go into detail on those because my wife is making me go to bed.

[Magnetic Curses]

if joe friggen morgan can be in the hall, so can Hawk.....

 

as much as it pains me to say it: joe morgan was the superior player that set the offensive standard for all modern 2nd basemen to be judged.

 

Agreed, the position is the key. If Dawson were a 2B and Morgan were an OF, neither of them would have made been listed on the ballot for two years; Dawson because he'd have been a first-year selection, and Morgan because he'd have dropped off with about 7 votes.

 

joe morgan ops+ 132

jim rice ops+ 128

 

Good stat, and relevant to intelligent discussion of the true value of players as opposed to their sheer talent.

 

But, I simply don't think HOF voters are that sophisticated yet. Some are, but not nearly enough to swing an election. They would be more likely to look at more simplistic numbers like Morgan's 268 homers and compare him to someone like Jim Wynn, who finished up with 290 and didn't get a single HOF vote.

 

Of course voters do love intangibles like awards and World Series rings, but it's to hard to speculate what a bizarro "Morgan in the outfield" world might be like with a typical 1970s middle infielder inserted into the Reds lineup in place of either Cesar Geronimo, Ken Griffey, or George Foster.

 

By the way, I did a little research on the OPS+ numbers for all the HOF second basemen who have played since the '50s. Morgan's 132 ties him for first with Jackie Robinson; Rod Carew is a close second with 131. Sandberg's is fourth at 114. The next two serious HOF contenders, Alomar and Biggio, are tied at 116. I've never really thought of Jeff Kent as a serious contender because I view him as a power hitter who happens to play second more than a second baseman who hits for power. But just to leave no stone unturned, his OPS+ is 126.

 

I looked at some OF numbers, too, but I don't have time to go into detail on those because my wife is making me go to bed.

 

if you like intangibles, morgan being a fixture on the espn game of the week didn't hurt his chances either.

[CuseCubFan69]

Joe was a heck of a player. I remember his little glove that he used, it was tiny at the time.

 

Hawk played on a driveway for too long in his career and that's a huge shame. I always compare Vlad to Andre.

[RynoRules]

Joe was a heck of a player. I remember his little glove that he used, it was tiny at the time.

 

Hawk played on a driveway for too long in his career and that's a huge shame. I always compare Vlad to Andre.

 

IMO, that's a perfect comparison in terms of skill set. And yes, Andre's career was watered down by playing on the rug in Olympic Stadium.

[BigbadB]

Joe was a heck of a player. I remember his little glove that he used, it was tiny at the time.

 

Hawk played on a driveway for too long in his career and that's a huge shame. I always compare Vlad to Andre.

 

IMO, that's a perfect comparison in terms of skill set. And yes, Andre's career was watered down by playing on the rug in Olympic Stadium.

 

Andre's career was hurt in the power department because of Stade Olympique, also.

[CubinNY]

Joe was a heck of a player. I remember his little glove that he used, it was tiny at the time.

 

Hawk played on a driveway for too long in his career and that's a huge shame. I always compare Vlad to Andre.

 

IMO, that's a perfect comparison in terms of skill set. And yes, Andre's career was watered down by playing on the rug in Olympic Stadium.

 

Although Dawson's career was undoubtably hurt by playing in Olympic Stadium, he was damaged goods even before he stepped on to a MLB filed. In highschool he destroyed his knee playing football his senior year.

 

To me that makes his career even more remarkable.

 

I will always love the Hawk. If I had a boy I would want him to emulate they way he played the game.

 

One more thing, nobody could hit the head high fastball harder and farther than Dawson.