Sabermetrics and Race

[biittner77]

A few comments:

 

until Barry Bonds, the universally despised Joe Morgan was the ultimate moneyball player.

 

currently, black players make up only 10% of the league. Therefore it stands to reason that there would be fewer black moneyball players due to sample size.

 

just to clarify the purpose of this thread- and not meaning to open a can of worms- it seems like the contention is that it's not sybermetrics that's racially biased but James disciples at NSBB that have that bias. If that is the case, I have been here since the beginning and I honestly do not believe that any of the syber guys give race a 2nd thought when evaluating a player.

[SouthSideRyan]

Can we at least agree that all baseball GMs are anti-semitic?

[CP_414]

Can we at least agree that all baseball GMs are anti-semitic?

 

Jeff Moorad traded for Shawn Green.

 

Sabermetrics deal strictly with numbers, this is a non-issue. If the point of the thread is do white American players have a different style of play than African-American and Latin players you can debate that. Do sabermetric people prefer white players? Of course not.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Can we at least agree that all baseball GMs are anti-semitic?

 

Greenberg's HBP was a hired hit!

[10man]

With regards to latino players, I think you see that fewer of them that have qualities that "sabermetricians". When it comes to scouting central america, plate discipline isn't very high up the list of qualities scouts are looking for. You see many more toolsy players that are scouted than refined players like those who came through the US high school and college ranks(whether it's Todd Walker, Ray Durham, or Alex Rodriguez). I don't think it's any conscious decision by the people who value those qualities, it's just the nature of the scouting.

Some more factors to consider are:

1) MLB teams might not have good access to stats for young Central/South American players and so not much fodder for their Sabermetric scouts to chew on.

2) Most of the scouts sent to Latin America are of the traditional background and thus looks for players with traditional talents (i.e. toolsy guys).

[snoodmonger]

This post is based upon a very unscientific reading of posts in this forum and other information. Many of the posters here appear to be sabermetrics fans or adherents or whatever you want to call it. My unscientific reading indicates that it almost all players that the sabermetric consider as quality players are white and players who are considered not so good tend to be African-American or Latin. Could the Sabermetrics fans point me to some players that they consider valuable who are African-American or Latin. I am sure there are some who you guys have mentioned. If the numbers are disproportionately small, what are the reasons, speaking in general terms, the games of African-American and Latin players do not appear to be valued by sabermetrics.

 

I think it is just an interesting question/issue. I am aware that some time back, this issue was raised in an article by the late Ralph Wiley and that spurred a kind of lame response from (I think) Buster Olney. Not by any stretch of the imagination do I believe that sabermetric fans are racists or anything close. I think it is simply an interesting topic to talk about.

 

At bototm, the greatest fear is that sabermetrics could be used not as intended but as some kind of a safe harbor for people with certain beliefs.

 

African-American: Barry Bonds

Latin American: Albert Pujols

 

I could cite many more examples.

 

 

Sabermetrics don't care about the race of the player - just raw numbers. There's a stereotype that African-American and Latin American players are too aggressive at the plate (i.e. not talking walks).

 

Can you cite some non-superstar guys? This is not a challenge. I am just trying to see if there is any evidence to back up what I have termed as an very unscientific look.

 

I don't understand the question. How would be citing non-superstar guys help?

 

I guess as follows: I hear the names on non-superstar guys like Wilkerson, Giles, Todd Walker bandied around as valuable under sabermetric theories but not non-superstar player of color. I don't know if that clears it up.

 

Again, I repeat that I am not stating that sabermetrics is racist in any way.

 

 

 

According to VORP Giles was the 18th most valuable player in baseball with 65.1 so to me he's pretty elite. I would say Raul Ibanez or Ray Durham would be underrated "Moneyball" guys. That's a tough question to answer because you want players that are good but not too good. I don't think you are calling anyone racist, it's an interesting question.

 

Chone Figgins would seem to qualify, too.

[pete the dog]

 

currently, black players make up only 10% of the league. Therefore it stands to reason that there would be fewer black moneyball players due to sample size.

 

 

 

 

Very good point.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Chone Figgins would seem to qualify, too.

 

I was thisclose to including him but he's a speed guy who has no power so he didn't seem like a classic "Moneyball" player to me (yes I understand SABER guys still like the guy).