Rincon Signs With The Cards

[CardsFanInChiTown]

It's hardly arguable that players once worth very little or nothing seem to tear it up the minute the put on a Cards uniform, but I highly doubt that it has anything to do with the umpires.

 

Thank you for seeing that.

I can deal with a lot of things, saying that MLB wants the Cards to win is not one of them.

 

Touche

[cjbucks]

Our pitching coach Dave Duncan is good at getting a veteran pitcher's mojo back hence I like the signing.

 

he tells them "see these? these are birds on bats. throw the ball three inches off the corners and they'll be called strikes. now go have a career year."

 

Bitter?

 

admitting?

 

That posts like that make no sense? That blaming the officials or luck or God for another team winning is kinda sad. Yeah, pretty much.

 

Just for the record though they are called umpires in baseball. :)

[NorthsideAvenger]

Definitely (another) step backwards for the Birdinals; Ray King > Rincon.

 

But Rincon is a mil cheaper than King would have been.. King wasnt all that great either.. and no I'm not saying Rincon is either.. Could do worse though..

 

Sure King would have been OK to keep but we got 3 alright players for King's price.. Not too bad IMO.

 

 

Who are the other 2?? Bigbie maybe if something explains his falling off a cliff last year. But Aaron Miles is no damn good.

 

I thought Aaron Miles was a pretty solid combo guard for University of Kansas? But he was made better by playing alongside Kirk Hinrich.

[PieOnMyHands]

Our pitching coach Dave Duncan is good at getting a veteran pitcher's mojo back hence I like the signing.

 

he tells them "see these? these are birds on bats. throw the ball three inches off the corners and they'll be called strikes. now go have a career year."

 

Unfortunately for the Cubs -- namely Greg Maddux -- these "rules" do not apply.

[Mike Aller]

I never cared for him in Cleveland. :?

[jjgman21]

Our pitching coach Dave Duncan is good at getting a veteran pitcher's mojo back hence I like the signing.

 

he tells them "see these? these are birds on bats. throw the ball three inches off the corners and they'll be called strikes. now go have a career year."

 

Unfortunately for the Cubs -- namely Greg Maddux -- these "rules" do not apply.

 

ah so Card fans can recognize that some players have received the benefit of the call at some point in time, but never the Cards. no. never. like you guys have never whined about Bonds or Clemens getting corner calls against you. like you never saw a Yankees game between 1996-2000.

 

Maddux hasn't received any favors in his two years back with the Cubs. how many times have we seen him start off the mound, only to have the call not go his way...and then the inning blows up in his face.

 

a couple years ago, I looked into the Cards staff for, I think it was 2001, a year in which they had something like 15 different pitchers that also pitched for other teams that year or the following year. turns out, that each and every one of them were better as Cardinals, whether they were with another team before or after the Cardinals.

 

another example, you'll note that the years the Cubs have performed their best in the recent past all followed an uproar over umpires. 1998 followed the strike/firing, 2001 followed the enforcement of the high strike, and 2003 followed the introduction of Questech. maybe coincidence. maybe not.

 

you may want to attribute it to Duncan, but wouldn't you think that these pitchers would take Duncan's wisdom with them? at least a couple of them? nope. not one of them improved once they left the Cards. there has to be some other explanation. luck? maybe. umps? maybe. some of it may have to do with Duncan or the pitcher being washed up, but just because the umps give certain calls to certain players or teams doesn't mean there has to be a conspiracy.

 

I recently had the chance to pick the brain of a high A umpire who is moving up to AA next year. he completely agrees with me. somehow, he finds himself not always being consistent and at times giving certain players or teams benefits that he doesn't give others. its nothing he's conscious of at the time, just something that happens in the moment.

 

it happens in all sports guys. go ahead and get upset with me because I bring it up. that's legit, I admit that I whine. I personally am outraged by injustice at just about any level, so I vent. but to pretend it's not happening is completely disingenuous.

[anemic offense]

Definitely (another) step backwards for the Birdinals; Ray King > Rincon.

 

As much as it would look to be on paper, I highly doubt it will be the case Think about it...exactly how many FA signings have the Cardinals made over the last 2-3 season that haven't worked out??? Womack - career year, Grudz - career year, Tavarez - career years, Taguchi - solid, Carpenter - Cy Young award, Marquis - solid, Sanders - solid, etc. etc. I'm beginning to think they could sign my dead grandpa and get a .310/.400/.550 line. They make me sick.

[anemic offense]

Our pitching coach Dave Duncan is good at getting a veteran pitcher's mojo back hence I like the signing.

 

he tells them "see these? these are birds on bats. throw the ball three inches off the corners and they'll be called strikes. now go have a career year."

 

Unfortunately for the Cubs -- namely Greg Maddux -- these "rules" do not apply.

 

ah so Card fans can recognize that some players have received the benefit of the call at some point in time, but never the Cards. no. never. like you guys have never whined about Bonds or Clemens getting corner calls against you. like you never saw a Yankees game between 1996-2000.

 

Maddux hasn't received any favors in his two years back with the Cubs. how many times have we seen him start off the mound, only to have the call not go his way...and then the inning blows up in his face.

 

a couple years ago, I looked into the Cards staff for, I think it was 2001, a year in which they had something like 15 different pitchers that also pitched for other teams that year or the following year. turns out, that each and every one of them were better as Cardinals, whether they were with another team before or after the Cardinals.

 

another example, you'll note that the years the Cubs have performed their best in the recent past all followed an uproar over umpires. 1998 followed the strike/firing, 2001 followed the enforcement of the high strike, and 2003 followed the introduction of Questech. maybe coincidence. maybe not.

 

you may want to attribute it to Duncan, but wouldn't you think that these pitchers would take Duncan's wisdom with them? at least a couple of them? nope. not one of them improved once they left the Cards. there has to be some other explanation. luck? maybe. umps? maybe. some of it may have to do with Duncan or the pitcher being washed up, but just because the umps give certain calls to certain players or teams doesn't mean there has to be a conspiracy.

 

I recently had the chance to pick the brain of a high A umpire who is moving up to AA next year. he completely agrees with me. somehow, he finds himself not always being consistent and at times giving certain players or teams benefits that he doesn't give others. its nothing he's conscious of at the time, just something that happens in the moment.

 

it happens in all sports guys. go ahead and get upset with me because I bring it up. that's legit, I admit that I whine. I personally am outraged by injustice at just about any level, so I vent. but to pretend it's not happening is completely disingenuous.

 

Dave Duncan is a major reason for their success, but a lot of the credit (obviously) goes to Walt Jocketty. It is utterly amazing (and sometimes lucky) how the man continually signs players who perform beyond expectations. Aside from an eye for talent, I think he has an eye for players that have room for (and can attain) improvement. Imo, this is the sole reason why the Cardinals have kicked everyone's *ss the last few years. They do the best job of supplementing their team through FA than anyone else in baseball. On the same token, the Cubs are one of the worst. It's kind of hard to be competitive when EVERY SINGLE one of your (Cubs') FA signings is a complete disaster. And Jocketty's doing this WITH LESS payroll flexibility (than the Cubs). He and Schurholz are definately the class of baseball.

[RynoRules]

Our pitching coach Dave Duncan is good at getting a veteran pitcher's mojo back hence I like the signing.

 

he tells them "see these? these are birds on bats. throw the ball three inches off the corners and they'll be called strikes. now go have a career year."

 

Bitter?

 

Yeah, really. Lets give Duncan some credit: he reserected Eldred and Taveras. That's just short of churning water from a stone.

[CubinNY]

[Dave Duncan is a major reason for their success, but a lot of the credit (obviously) goes to Walt Jocketty. It is utterly amazing (and sometimes lucky) how the man continually signs players who perform beyond expectations. Aside from an eye for talent, I think he has an eye for players that have room for (and can attain) improvement. Imo, this is the sole reason why the Cardinals have kicked everyone's *ss the last few years. They do the best job of supplementing their team through FA than anyone else in baseball. On the same token, the Cubs are one of the worst. It's kind of hard to be competitive when EVERY SINGLE one of your (Cubs') FA signings is a complete disaster. And Jocketty's doing this WITH LESS payroll flexibility (than the Cubs). He and Schurholz are definately the class of baseball.

 

I agree with you to an extent. But the Cards are in a far better off position then the Cubs to begin with. When you have Albert, Scott, Edgar (in the past), and Jim it is much easier to fill the holes with the likes of Taguchi, Matheny, et al.

 

In the recent past the Cubs had Sammy and not much else.

[jjgman21]

[Dave Duncan is a major reason for their success, but a lot of the credit (obviously) goes to Walt Jocketty. It is utterly amazing (and sometimes lucky) how the man continually signs players who perform beyond expectations. Aside from an eye for talent, I think he has an eye for players that have room for (and can attain) improvement. Imo, this is the sole reason why the Cardinals have kicked everyone's *ss the last few years. They do the best job of supplementing their team through FA than anyone else in baseball. On the same token, the Cubs are one of the worst. It's kind of hard to be competitive when EVERY SINGLE one of your (Cubs') FA signings is a complete disaster. And Jocketty's doing this WITH LESS payroll flexibility (than the Cubs). He and Schurholz are definately the class of baseball.

 

I agree with you to an extent. But the Cards are in a far better off position then the Cubs to begin with. When you have Albert, Scott, Edgar (in the past), and Jim it is much easier to fill the holes with the likes of Taguchi, Matheny, et al.

 

In the recent past the Cubs had Sammy and not much else.

 

where I will give credit to Jocketty more than anything is his ability to cherry pick when nobody else even sees the orchard. He's landed McGuire, Edmonds, Rolen, Renteria, Williams and Walker for what amounts to Adam Kennedy, Braden Looper, Placido Polanco, and 1/3 of a year of Mike Timlin.

 

but one thing I have always said about Jocketty is his in season trades always seem to be good moves, but the wrong moves. year after year he brings in more hitting when more pitching would have put them over the top.

[Andy]

I agree with jigman re: Maddux. If Greg ever got favoritism from the umpires in Atlanta, it stopped once he became a Cub. At least five times in his two years, I've seen him start walking off the mound after throwing a third strike for a third out, only to see the ump call the pitch a ball. And almost every time, it results in hits and runs for the opposition.

 

I think there is some truth, also, to the theory that the young Cub pitchers, especially Wood and Z, get squeezed due to their past run-ins with the umps. They're human just like everyone else and they hold grudges, and Wood and Z have gotten into so many tussles by now that it's impossible not to run into an umpire that will squeeze them.

[indifferent]

[Dave Duncan is a major reason for their success, but a lot of the credit (obviously) goes to Walt Jocketty. It is utterly amazing (and sometimes lucky) how the man continually signs players who perform beyond expectations. Aside from an eye for talent, I think he has an eye for players that have room for (and can attain) improvement. Imo, this is the sole reason why the Cardinals have kicked everyone's *ss the last few years. They do the best job of supplementing their team through FA than anyone else in baseball. On the same token, the Cubs are one of the worst. It's kind of hard to be competitive when EVERY SINGLE one of your (Cubs') FA signings is a complete disaster. And Jocketty's doing this WITH LESS payroll flexibility (than the Cubs). He and Schurholz are definately the class of baseball.

 

I agree with you to an extent. But the Cards are in a far better off position then the Cubs to begin with. When you have Albert, Scott, Edgar (in the past), and Jim it is much easier to fill the holes with the likes of Taguchi, Matheny, et al.

 

In the recent past the Cubs had Sammy and not much else.

 

where I will give credit to Jocketty more than anything is his ability to cherry pick when nobody else even sees the orchard. He's landed McGuire, Edmonds, Rolen, Renteria, Williams and Walker for what amounts to Adam Kennedy, Braden Looper, Placido Polanco, and 1/3 of a year of Mike Timlin.

 

but one thing I have always said about Jocketty is his in season trades always seem to be good moves, but the wrong moves. year after year he brings in more hitting when more pitching would have put them over the top.

 

Strangely the last two years, he's done the opposite (in the offseason). He's targeted a "frontline" starting pitcher when we needed the offensive help (according to postseason failings anyway). Trading for Mulder when you had Haren ready to step into the rotation is tantamount to trading for Burnett (if he wasn't a free agent) when you had Reyes ready to step into the rotation. Pursuing Burnett when you need two corner outfielders and bullpen help? And then crying poor when it comes time to fill those holes?

[YearofDaCubs]

Our pitching coach Dave Duncan is good at getting a veteran pitcher's mojo back hence I like the signing.

 

he tells them "see these? these are birds on bats. throw the ball three inches off the corners and they'll be called strikes. now go have a career year."

 

Unfortunately for the Cubs -- namely Greg Maddux -- these "rules" do not apply.

 

ah so Card fans can recognize that some players have received the benefit of the call at some point in time, but never the Cards. no. never. like you guys have never whined about Bonds or Clemens getting corner calls against you. like you never saw a Yankees game between 1996-2000.

 

Maddux hasn't received any favors in his two years back with the Cubs. how many times have we seen him start off the mound, only to have the call not go his way...and then the inning blows up in his face.

 

a couple years ago, I looked into the Cards staff for, I think it was 2001, a year in which they had something like 15 different pitchers that also pitched for other teams that year or the following year. turns out, that each and every one of them were better as Cardinals, whether they were with another team before or after the Cardinals.

 

another example, you'll note that the years the Cubs have performed their best in the recent past all followed an uproar over umpires. 1998 followed the strike/firing, 2001 followed the enforcement of the high strike, and 2003 followed the introduction of Questech. maybe coincidence. maybe not.

 

you may want to attribute it to Duncan, but wouldn't you think that these pitchers would take Duncan's wisdom with them? at least a couple of them? nope. not one of them improved once they left the Cards. there has to be some other explanation. luck? maybe. umps? maybe. some of it may have to do with Duncan or the pitcher being washed up, but just because the umps give certain calls to certain players or teams doesn't mean there has to be a conspiracy.

 

I recently had the chance to pick the brain of a high A umpire who is moving up to AA next year. he completely agrees with me. somehow, he finds himself not always being consistent and at times giving certain players or teams benefits that he doesn't give others. its nothing he's conscious of at the time, just something that happens in the moment.

 

it happens in all sports guys. go ahead and get upset with me because I bring it up. that's legit, I admit that I whine. I personally am outraged by injustice at just about any level, so I vent. but to pretend it's not happening is completely disingenuous.

The officiating in the NBA has to be the worst by far. It's to the point where it's not even fair. They need to clean that up. MLB isn't even close to being that bad.

[jjgman21]

The officiating in the NBA has to be the worst by far. It's to the point where it's not even fair. They need to clean that up. MLB isn't even close to being that bad.

 

I think its every bit as bad. the difference is the subtleties. everyone in the world can see when one team is hammering the other in the paint without foul calls, while there are touch fouls called on the other end.

 

with home plate umpiring, it's often times a matter of 1/2 of an inch, and what is outrageous is the media encourages it. "well Roger Clemens is going to get that pitch called. the batter needs to take a hack" or "if you're around the plate all the time, you're going to get those calls" or "he's called that pitch earlier in the game."

 

NONSENSE!!! it doesn't matter if it's Pujols in the ninth at Coors and the tieing runner is on. a strike is a strike and a ball is a ball. (you know what I'm talking about Card fans.)

[indifferent]

The officiating in the NBA has to be the worst by far. It's to the point where it's not even fair. They need to clean that up. MLB isn't even close to being that bad.

 

I think its every bit as bad. the difference is the subtleties. everyone in the world can see when one team is hammering the other in the paint without foul calls, while there are touch fouls called on the other end.

 

with home plate umpiring, it's often times a matter of 1/2 of an inch, and what is outrageous is the media encourages it. "well Roger Clemens is going to get that pitch called. the batter needs to take a hack" or "if you're around the plate all the time, you're going to get those calls" or "he's called that pitch earlier in the game."

 

NONSENSE!!! it doesn't matter if it's Pujols in the ninth at Coors and the tieing runner is on. a strike is a strike and a ball is a ball. (you know what I'm talking about Card fans.)

 

Not really.

 

Who specifically on the Cards do you think gets preferential strike zone treatment?

[CubinNY]

The officiating in the NBA has to be the worst by far. It's to the point where it's not even fair. They need to clean that up. MLB isn't even close to being that bad.

 

I think its every bit as bad. the difference is the subtleties. everyone in the world can see when one team is hammering the other in the paint without foul calls, while there are touch fouls called on the other end.

 

with home plate umpiring, it's often times a matter of 1/2 of an inch, and what is outrageous is the media encourages it. "well Roger Clemens is going to get that pitch called. the batter needs to take a hack" or "if you're around the plate all the time, you're going to get those calls" or "he's called that pitch earlier in the game."

 

NONSENSE!!! it doesn't matter if it's Pujols in the ninth at Coors and the tieing runner is on. a strike is a strike and a ball is a ball. (you know what I'm talking about Card fans.)

 

Not really.

 

Who specifically on the Cards do you think gets preferential strike zone treatment?

 

Although I find it highly distastefull, I have to agree with the Card fan here. :D

 

I don't like the fact that the strike zone is whatever the ump behind the plate says it is. But I also don't think they give breaks to the all-stars either. I think they do the best job they can and they make mistakes.

 

I would love to see a machine used to call balls and strikes like they have in tennis.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

I'm not complaining but if everyone thinks the Cards are shown strike zone favoritism check out the NLCS. Bad calls work both ways.

[cubbyvirus00]

I don't think the Cards recieve special treatment, I just don't like them.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Although I find it highly distastefull, I have to agree with the Card fan here. :D

 

I don't like the fact that the strike zone is whatever the ump behind the plate says it is. But I also don't think they give breaks to the all-stars either. I think they do the best job they can and they make mistakes.

 

I would love to see a machine used to call balls and strikes like they have in tennis.

 

I don't think Cards pitchers or all-stars get preferential treatment per se, but with a human in charge of balls and strikes, like it or not, there is an emotional element involved. I think most of us have seen a pitch right down the heart of the plate called a ball after the ump felt like he had been shown up or just didn't like something the pitcher/catcher/manager had to say.

[CubRock2]

Bad calls happen all the time, and blaming the success/failure of anyone due to officiating/upiring is immature. Sure, you can make the "what if" arguements, but so can anyone. A LOT of things have to go your way to be successful, and only one of them is the umpiring.

 

Lots of players have come and gone through successful systems (Patriots, Braves, Yankees, etc) who are only successful with that team. It's coaching, atmosphere, and the players willingness to perform. The officiating/umpiring has such a small fraction to do with it, it's not worth your time.

[PieOnMyHands]

Maddux hasn't received any favors in his two years back with the Cubs. how many times have we seen him start off the mound, only to have the call not go his way...and then the inning blows up in his face.

 

Earlier in the year, I was here for a game thread of Mulder and Maddux. I complained about a call Maddux got, and said that Maddux was getting favorable calls:

 

I have been a Greg Maddux fan for a long time. And there is no doubt that he is given a different strike zone than most pitchers. Was strike two really a strike? Santo even stated that could have gone either way. Which means it was a ball. Just wanted to get your opinion.

 

no s***? Where have you been the past 15 years?

 

I spend like 10 minutes searching through the 50-page thread trying to find that... and there were only two replies. Oh well, I thought there was more to it.

 

Gred Maddux gets favorable calls because of who he is -- whether he is wearing a Cubs uniform or a Braves uniform.

 

It happens in all sports guys. go ahead and get upset with me because I bring it up. that's legit, I admit that I whine. I personally am outraged by injustice at just about any level, so I vent. but to pretend it's not happening is completely disingenuous.

ah so Card fans can recognize that some players have received the benefit of the call at some point in time, but never the Cards. no. never. like you guys have never whined about Bonds or Clemens getting corner calls against you. like you never saw a Yankees game between 1996-2000.

 

I didn't ever deny that premiere players get favorable calls. Of course that happens. And yes, like you said, it happens in every sport, too. Look at Jerry Rice getting defensive pass interference called against him solely because his last name was Rice. (This was especially evident late in his career when he really wasn't a huge threat anymore..)

 

NONSENSE!!! it doesn't matter if it's Pujols in the ninth at Coors and the tieing runner is on. a strike is a strike and a ball is a ball. (you know what I'm talking about Card fans.)

 

How often do you see a game end on a called strike three? How often are penalties called late in hockey games? How frequently do refs throw their yellow flag within the last two minutes of a game?

 

What you just described does, to some extent, involve the "star treatment," but it also has to do with the fact that officiating crews in all sports tend to adjust their style in an attempt to "let them play."

 

The thing I find asinine is that you claim that the "superstar treatment" applies to any pitcher, once they put on a Cardinals uniform. You are crazy. Absolutely crazy. That does not happen. I'm not in denial, either. Now you're just making up conspiracies to knock down the Cardinals team to make yourself feel better.

[RynoRules]

The officiating in the NBA has to be the worst by far. It's to the point where it's not even fair. They need to clean that up. MLB isn't even close to being that bad.

 

I think its every bit as bad. the difference is the subtleties. everyone in the world can see when one team is hammering the other in the paint without foul calls, while there are touch fouls called on the other end.

 

with home plate umpiring, it's often times a matter of 1/2 of an inch, and what is outrageous is the media encourages it. "well Roger Clemens is going to get that pitch called. the batter needs to take a hack" or "if you're around the plate all the time, you're going :thumleft: matter if it's Pujols in the ninth at Coors and the tieing runner is on. a strike is a strike and a ball is a ball. (you know what I'm talking about Card fans.)

 

Not really.

 

Who specifically on the Cards do you think gets preferential strike zone treatment?

 

Although I find it highly distastefull, I have to agree with the Card fan here. :D

 

I don't like the fact that the strike zone is whatever the ump behind the plate says it is. But I also don't think they give breaks to the all-stars either. I think they do the best job they can and they make mistakes.

 

I would love to see a machine used to call balls and strikes like they have in tennis.

 

While were at it, lets replace the managers with IBM Thinkpads, seeing as stats are all that you really need.

 

That's a bit of overkill, IMO.

[NorthsideAvenger]

The officiating in the NBA has to be the worst by far. It's to the point where it's not even fair. They need to clean that up. MLB isn't even close to being that bad.

 

Oh come on....you don't like the five step before you bounce the ball rule (Francis did in Detroit), or how about player A would get hammer and to the ground, and is bleeding from the forehead, and he is call for offensive fouls. What you don't "LIKE THAT."

 

Come sports, isn't about competion, it's about repitition (Yankees/Red Sox, Pistons/Laker/Spurs/Pacers etc). There i nothing sporty about sports.

[Mike Aller]

I just remembered:

 

Cleveland traded Giles to get Rincon. :lol: