Marlins trade Castillo to Twins (Complete)

[goonys evil twin]

No one gets a pass but let's not act like he's sitting on his hands either.

 

He sat on his hands last offseason, and while he might not be sitting on them now, he has not yet used those hands to make any meaningful improvement to biggest problem area on the team, and some options are beginning to disappear.

[HoopsCubs]

This is the first deal that I am upset about. We could have, had Jim been so inclined, made a better offer than the Twins and taken care of our leadoff hitter and 2B issue in one swoop, leaving Cedeno at SS and freedom to go out and use Walker to get a CF and prospects to get a RF.

 

Now, Jim will have to overpay for Furcal. I am not on the Hendry Bash-Wagon, but I am unhappy.

 

I understand the unhappiness, but I got it on good authority that there were 3 NL teams and 2 AL teams involved: Mets, Dodgers, Cardinals, Red Sox, and Twins. I was told that what Florida asked in return from the NL teams was very different than what they asked from AL teams. Let's just say that had the Cubs been involved, they would have been asked to give up triple what the Twins actually gave up to get Castillo. The Mets were asked to give up Milledge, the Dodgers were asked to give up Joel Guzman and the Cards were asked to give up Reyes.

 

I think Florida's strategy was to trade him to the AL. Same strategy used on Beckett/Lowell. Same strategy they'll use with Pierre - I now believe the Rangers and Yankees will have the upper hand on getting him than the Cubs. Delgado was the exception only because his cash was so much, it came down to who'd pick up the most, and the Mets outbid the Red Sox and Angels.

[goonys evil twin]

I think Florida's strategy was to trade him to the AL. Same strategy used on Beckett/Lowell. Same strategy they'll use with Pierre - I now believe the Rangers and Yankees will have the upper hand on getting him than the Cubs. Delgado was the exception only because his cash was so much, it came down to who'd pick up the most, and the Mets outbid the Red Sox and Angels.

 

That is interesting, and kind of strange. I understand not wanting to be haunted by your own player down the road, but wouldn't you just want the best package available? It's not like they have a chance in 2006, and by the time they are good again some of those guys' careers will be winding down or they could have been traded/signed by another NL team.

 

In 99 I would have been pissed if the Cubs traded Sammy for a lesser package just to send him to an AL team instead of another NL team.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

This is the first deal that I am upset about. We could have, had Jim been so inclined, made a better offer than the Twins and taken care of our leadoff hitter and 2B issue in one swoop, leaving Cedeno at SS and freedom to go out and use Walker to get a CF and prospects to get a RF.

 

Now, Jim will have to overpay for Furcal. I am not on the Hendry Bash-Wagon, but I am unhappy.

 

I understand the unhappiness, but I got it on good authority that there were 3 NL teams and 2 AL teams involved: Mets, Dodgers, Cardinals, Red Sox, and Twins. I was told that what Florida asked in return from the NL teams was very different than what they asked from AL teams. Let's just say that had the Cubs been involved, they would have been asked to give up triple what the Twins actually gave up to get Castillo. The Mets were asked to give up Milledge, the Dodgers were asked to give up Joel Guzman and the Cards were asked to give up Reyes.

 

I think Florida's strategy was to trade him to the AL. Same strategy used on Beckett/Lowell. Same strategy they'll use with Pierre - I now believe the Rangers and Yankees will have the upper hand on getting him than the Cubs. Delgado was the exception only because his cash was so much, it came down to who'd pick up the most, and the Mets outbid the Red Sox and Angels.

 

So this makes even more reason to loathe the stinking Florida Marlins with full-bore, teeth-baring hatred. We don't want your lousy CF anyway. Here's to your 60 win 2006 season, jerkweeds!

[Blueheart05]

No one gets a pass but let's not act like he's sitting on his hands either.

 

He sat on his hands last offseason, and while he might not be sitting on them now, he has not yet used those hands to make any meaningful improvement to biggest problem area on the team, and some options are beginning to disappear.

 

Let's deal with this year. We don't know if MacPhail made it difficult for him to make moves until he delt Sosa. Also, he made several moves inseason to completely change the bullpen. It takes two to tangle and when put into perspective, there have really only been deals by a hand full of teams.

 

Unfortunately, I think Hendry is caught in a tough postion. There are teams that would be more willing to deal with him if he didn't have so many untouchables (like Pie and Hill) yet, with the uncertainty of his pitching staff, in effectiveness of some players, and possible FA vacancies in 2007, he can't afford to sell them off either. Like every GM, he will try to get the best available commodity as cheaply as the market will allow.

 

Getting back to the topic of this thread, it makes more sense to me that the Marlins would try to peddle their players to AL teams. After sending Beckett, Lowell, and Mota to Boston I was shocked that they moved Delgado to the Mets. Frankly, that a Pirate-type move.

[goonys evil twin]

Let's deal with this year.

 

Unfortunately, I think Hendry is caught in a tough postion.

 

More excuses. Hendry has had a top 5 payroll throughout his tenure, and thanks to much of his work as farm director last decade, he had a ton of talent at his disposal. All GMs have a tough job, but Hendry has not been in a tougher position than any other GM in the league. Fandom aside, I would have taken the Cubs job over just about any other the past 3 seasons simply because of what a great position they were in to succeed. A GM has to be judged on the collective results during his tenure, not individual trades, or just this year. I don't care about excuses about why he couldn't get a guy, or how a team wouldn't trade with him. Lots of people have known exactly what has held back this team from being great as opposed to above average (88/89 wins) or below average. And, SO FAR, Hendry has done nothing to fix that problem. It's up to him to solve the problem, not us to assume he'll get the job done.

[jtownie]

I think Florida's strategy was to trade him to the AL. Same strategy used on Beckett/Lowell. Same strategy they'll use with Pierre - I now believe the Rangers and Yankees will have the upper hand on getting him than the Cubs. Delgado was the exception only because his cash was so much, it came down to who'd pick up the most, and the Mets outbid the Red Sox and Angels.

 

That is interesting, and kind of strange. I understand not wanting to be haunted by your own player down the road, but wouldn't you just want the best package available? It's not like they have a chance in 2006, and by the time they are good again some of those guys' careers will be winding down or they could have been traded/signed by another NL team.

 

In 99 I would have been pissed if the Cubs traded Sammy for a lesser package just to send him to an AL team instead of another NL team.

 

Yeah I can understand not wanting to trade within the division but outside of it you only see a team at most 6 to 9 times correct? Very odd strategy and just another reason to be upset at FL management.

[UBlink]

First off, I thought I read that Cedeno was moved to 2B this off season. I will look for something to back that up and post it.

 

Don't know what the plans were, but here's the facts

 

 

Stats Link

 

Cedeno has played 23 games, all at SS.

[HoopsCubs]

I think Florida's strategy was to trade him to the AL. Same strategy used on Beckett/Lowell. Same strategy they'll use with Pierre - I now believe the Rangers and Yankees will have the upper hand on getting him than the Cubs. Delgado was the exception only because his cash was so much, it came down to who'd pick up the most, and the Mets outbid the Red Sox and Angels.

 

That is interesting, and kind of strange. I understand not wanting to be haunted by your own player down the road, but wouldn't you just want the best package available? It's not like they have a chance in 2006, and by the time they are good again some of those guys' careers will be winding down or they could have been traded/signed by another NL team.

 

In 99 I would have been pissed if the Cubs traded Sammy for a lesser package just to send him to an AL team instead of another NL team.

 

Yeah I can understand not wanting to trade within the division but outside of it you only see a team at most 6 to 9 times correct? Very odd strategy and just another reason to be upset at FL management.

 

Don't be too upset with them. At least the Cardinals didn't get him.

[Tim]

I don't see this as a big deal. The upgrade from Walker/Cedeno to Castillo wouldn't have been worth the price we would have had to pay in prospects. Since Castillo can't really run anymore, I don't think he's as good an offensive player as Walker. And I think Cedeno can be his equal defensively and will come somewhat close on offense. Given the salary differences involved, I'd say Hendry did the smart thing in staying away.

[goonys evil twin]

I don't see this as a big deal. The upgrade from Walker/Cedeno to Castillo wouldn't have been worth the price we would have had to pay in prospects. Since Castillo can't really run anymore, I don't think he's as good an offensive player as Walker. And I think Cedeno can be his equal defensively and will come somewhat close on offense. Given the salary differences involved, I'd say Hendry did the smart thing in staying away.

 

Yeah, it's not that big a deal, but, if/when they trade Walker for $0.75 on the $1.00 and platoon Neifi with Cedeno, or play a MI of Cedeno and Neifi, it'll just be another in a long line of missed opportunities. Most mistakes by Cubs management can be scoffed at as no big deal, but like overpaying Neifi/Rusch/Macias/Blanco and going with backup options in all 3 OF positions, they all add up.

[Tim]

I don't see this as a big deal. The upgrade from Walker/Cedeno to Castillo wouldn't have been worth the price we would have had to pay in prospects. Since Castillo can't really run anymore, I don't think he's as good an offensive player as Walker. And I think Cedeno can be his equal defensively and will come somewhat close on offense. Given the salary differences involved, I'd say Hendry did the smart thing in staying away.

 

Yeah, it's not that big a deal, but, if/when they trade Walker for $0.75 on the $1.00 and platoon Neifi with Cedeno, or play a MI of Cedeno and Neifi, it'll just be another in a long line of missed opportunities. Most mistakes by Cubs management can be scoffed at as no big deal, but like overpaying Neifi/Rusch/Macias/Blanco and going with backup options in all 3 OF positions, they all add up.

But in your example, the mistake wouldn't be not getting Castillo. It would be trading Walker for .75 on the 1.00 and going with a MIF that includes Neifi.

 

I'm willing to criticize Hendry, but it should be for the right things.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

If Donut Boy seals the Furcal deal and trades for Bradley, all is still right with the world.

 

Also, I have heard nary a peep regarding Kenny Lofton so far this offseason, so you would have to think Hendry still has that as a viable backup option in case other initiatives fail.

 

I will admit to being very concerned about the RF situation though, and Hendry's apparent disinterest in addressing it sooner rather than later. I think THAT'S the hole on our team we're going to end up being most disappointed with. Again. Juan Encarnacion, come on down!!

[goonys evil twin]

Yeah, it's not that big a deal, but, if/when they trade Walker for $0.75 on the $1.00 and platoon Neifi with Cedeno, or play a MI of Cedeno and Neifi, it'll just be another in a long line of missed opportunities. Most mistakes by Cubs management can be scoffed at as no big deal, but like overpaying Neifi/Rusch/Macias/Blanco and going with backup options in all 3 OF positions, they all add up.

But in your example, the mistake wouldn't be not getting Castillo. It would be trading Walker for .75 on the 1.00 and going with a MIF that includes Neifi.

....when Castillo was an option.

 

 

I'm willing to criticize Hendry, but it should be for the right things.

 

I haven't criticized him for not getting Castillo. I have criticized him for failing to improve the team for a couple years in a row and so far not doing a thing to improve the biggest hole on the team.

[Tim]

If Donut Boy seals the Furcal deal and trades for Bradley, all is still right with the world.

 

Also, I have heard nary a peep regarding Kenny Lofton so far this offseason, so you would have to think Hendry still has that as a viable backup option in case other initiatives fail.

 

I will admit to being very concerned about the RF situation though, and Hendry's apparent disinterest in addressing it sooner rather than later. I think THAT'S the hole on our team we're going to end up being most disappointed with. Again. Juan Encarnacion, come on down!!

Nobody's going to do anything with Lofton until after Philly declines arbitration. Nobody wants to give up a draft pick to get him on board.

[Blueheart05]

Let's deal with this year.

 

Unfortunately, I think Hendry is caught in a tough postion.

 

More excuses. Hendry has had a top 5 payroll throughout his tenure, and thanks to much of his work as farm director last decade, he had a ton of talent at his disposal. All GMs have a tough job, but Hendry has not been in a tougher position than any other GM in the league. Fandom aside, I would have taken the Cubs job over just about any other the past 3 seasons simply because of what a great position they were in to succeed. A GM has to be judged on the collective results during his tenure, not individual trades, or just this year. I don't care about excuses about why he couldn't get a guy, or how a team wouldn't trade with him. Lots of people have known exactly what has held back this team from being great as opposed to above average (88/89 wins) or below average. And, SO FAR, Hendry has done nothing to fix that problem. It's up to him to solve the problem, not us to assume he'll get the job done.

 

You can call it what you want but we are dealing with the here and now. If you can look back and point to his shortcomings will you also highlight his accomplishments? In your desire to make your point I guess it was lost on you that I didn't say he shouldn't be criticized but i do have a problem with the idea that he isn't trying to do anything.

 

By the logic in your argument, it must be up to us to assume he won't get it done. If that's the case, we shouldn't be outraged (much less surprised) by any non deals.

[Sweet Swinging Billy]

I believe Hendry is doing everything he possibly can to improve the Cubs, and that includes trying to acquire Luis Castillo. It's quite possible that Florida didn't want to trade him to a club in the NL, out of fear Castillo might come back to haunt them. If I'm not mistaken the Cubs initially expressed an interest a year or two ago, Castillo was a free agent so I know they consider him to be a good player. Heck, maybe we should approach Minnesota, to see if we could offer a package for him --maybe send them Walker and some young arms?

[Tim]

Yeah, it's not that big a deal, but, if/when they trade Walker for $0.75 on the $1.00 and platoon Neifi with Cedeno, or play a MI of Cedeno and Neifi, it'll just be another in a long line of missed opportunities. Most mistakes by Cubs management can be scoffed at as no big deal, but like overpaying Neifi/Rusch/Macias/Blanco and going with backup options in all 3 OF positions, they all add up.

But in your example, the mistake wouldn't be not getting Castillo. It would be trading Walker for .75 on the 1.00 and going with a MIF that includes Neifi.

....when Castillo was an option.

 

 

I'm willing to criticize Hendry, but it should be for the right things.

 

I haven't criticized him for not getting Castillo. I have criticized him for failing to improve the team for a couple years in a row and so far not doing a thing to improve the biggest hole on the team.

But would moving from Walker to Castillo actually be an improvement to the offense? I'm fully behind criticizing Hendry for not knocking the socks off Giles to get him on board. But I cannot fault him for not making the change from Walker to Castillo. In my mind, the problem here is that he's planning on getting rid of Walker in the first place.

[goonys evil twin]

Let's deal with this year.

 

Unfortunately, I think Hendry is caught in a tough postion.

 

More excuses. Hendry has had a top 5 payroll throughout his tenure, and thanks to much of his work as farm director last decade, he had a ton of talent at his disposal. All GMs have a tough job, but Hendry has not been in a tougher position than any other GM in the league. Fandom aside, I would have taken the Cubs job over just about any other the past 3 seasons simply because of what a great position they were in to succeed. A GM has to be judged on the collective results during his tenure, not individual trades, or just this year. I don't care about excuses about why he couldn't get a guy, or how a team wouldn't trade with him. Lots of people have known exactly what has held back this team from being great as opposed to above average (88/89 wins) or below average. And, SO FAR, Hendry has done nothing to fix that problem. It's up to him to solve the problem, not us to assume he'll get the job done.

 

You can call it what you want but we are dealing with the here and now. If you can look back and point to his shortcomings will you also highlight his accomplishments? In your desire to make your point I guess it was lost on you that I didn't say he shouldn't be criticized but i do have a problem with the idea that he isn't trying to do anything.

 

By the logic in your argument, it must be up to us to assume he won't get it done. If that's the case, we shouldn't be outraged (much less surprised) by any non deals.

 

The difference between me and you is I'm not trying to tell you how to judge Hendry. I'm merely offering up the logic behind my judgement of Hendry as less than adaquate at his job, which is based on his inability to failure to fix glaring weaknesses for a very long time. What I don't get is why there are so many people out there who want to tear apart those of us who don't like the job Hendry has done. If you like what he's done, fine, I'll disagree with you, but my problem is with Hendry, not you. On the other hand, when somebody says something negative about Hendry, you get much more of an attack against the negative than real positive support for Hendry.

 

I will assume Hendry will fail until he proves otherwise. 3 years ago he got the benefit of the doubt. After 2003 he got the benefit of the doubt. But this regime has shown me enough for me to have a pretty fair idea of what type of strategy they are trying to employ this offseason. Now, Hendry could blow me away with an acquisition for a very productive RF, and a series of moves to improved the longstanding lack of BB and OBP by the offense. And in that case, I'll be very happy to say I'm impressed with the job he's doing. But I can only judge Hendry on what he's accomplished so far on the job, that includes the past.

[goonys evil twin]

But would moving from Walker to Castillo actually be an improvement to the offense? I'm fully behind criticizing Hendry for not knocking the socks off Giles to get him on board. But I cannot fault him for not making the change from Walker to Castillo. In my mind, the problem here is that he's planning on getting rid of Walker in the first place.

 

I'm not criticizing him for not getting Castillo. I want to stick with Walker.

[UK1679666180]

But would moving from Walker to Castillo actually be an improvement to the offense? I'm fully behind criticizing Hendry for not knocking the socks off Giles to get him on board. But I cannot fault him for not making the change from Walker to Castillo. In my mind, the problem here is that he's planning on getting rid of Walker in the first place.

 

I'm not criticizing him for not getting Castillo. I want to stick with Walker.

 

But, you're acting under the assumption that it is conclusive Walker will be traded and it isn't fair at this stage to do so.

 

It's one thing to be upset about the Cubs trading Walker, it's another to use a completely separate situation in the analysis of it.

 

I'd be upset regardless if Castillo was still on the block and Walker was traded, unless it was a direct trade, obviously.

 

I fail to see how Castillo and the trade to the Twins impacts it. It doesn't make me want to hold onto Walker any more or less than before.

[Blueheart05]

Let's deal with this year.

 

Unfortunately, I think Hendry is caught in a tough postion.

 

More excuses. Hendry has had a top 5 payroll throughout his tenure, and thanks to much of his work as farm director last decade, he had a ton of talent at his disposal. All GMs have a tough job, but Hendry has not been in a tougher position than any other GM in the league. Fandom aside, I would have taken the Cubs job over just about any other the past 3 seasons simply because of what a great position they were in to succeed. A GM has to be judged on the collective results during his tenure, not individual trades, or just this year. I don't care about excuses about why he couldn't get a guy, or how a team wouldn't trade with him. Lots of people have known exactly what has held back this team from being great as opposed to above average (88/89 wins) or below average. And, SO FAR, Hendry has done nothing to fix that problem. It's up to him to solve the problem, not us to assume he'll get the job done.

 

You can call it what you want but we are dealing with the here and now. If you can look back and point to his shortcomings will you also highlight his accomplishments? In your desire to make your point I guess it was lost on you that I didn't say he shouldn't be criticized but i do have a problem with the idea that he isn't trying to do anything.

 

By the logic in your argument, it must be up to us to assume he won't get it done. If that's the case, we shouldn't be outraged (much less surprised) by any non deals.

 

The difference between me and you is I'm not trying to tell you how to judge Hendry. I'm merely offering up the logic behind my judgement of Hendry as less than adaquate at his job, which is based on his inability to failure to fix glaring weaknesses for a very long time. What I don't get is why there are so many people out there who want to tear apart those of us who don't like the job Hendry has done. If you like what he's done, fine, I'll disagree with you, but my problem is with Hendry, not you. On the other hand, when somebody says something negative about Hendry, you get much more of an attack against the negative than real positive support for Hendry.

 

I will assume Hendry will fail until he proves otherwise. 3 years ago he got the benefit of the doubt. After 2003 he got the benefit of the doubt. But this regime has shown me enough for me to have a pretty fair idea of what type of strategy they are trying to employ this offseason. Now, Hendry could blow me away with an acquisition for a very productive RF, and a series of moves to improved the longstanding lack of BB and OBP by the offense. And in that case, I'll be very happy to say I'm impressed with the job he's doing. But I can only judge Hendry on what he's accomplished so far on the job, that includes the past.

 

 

LOL, I responded to a message by RynoRules and you didn't like what I wrote which sparked a side discussion about Hendry. This is my statement that you quoted in your first message to me:

 

I think it's obvious Hendry is trying to work other deals. You really can't compare his task to the Sox because he has more holes to fill.

 

Sorry, I'm not telling you how to judge Hendry but I do stand by my earlier comments. It's hard to say he isn't doing anything we just haven't seen the fruits of it yet.

 

edit- for grammar

Edited December 2, 2005 by Blueheart05

[goonys evil twin]

But, you're acting under the assumption that it is conclusive Walker will be traded and it isn't fair at this stage to do so.

 

No I am not.

 

I started out pro-Hendry, as I was a big fan of his since he led the farm resurgence. This also coincided with a time when I was very much a conventional wisdom type of guy, looking for clutch players, intangibles and all the rest. I started to change my thinking the more I've read about the objective analysis involved in newer forms of player evaluation. This caused me to raise some doubts about Hendry as he moved into the asst GM job, but I was still largely willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Even after he started making moves I didn't like, I still thought he'd be fine overall. But in recent offseasons I've started to like less and less of what I've seen, to the point where I have next to no faith in the guys' ability to put a champion on the field.

 

That lack of faith in his work is largely what I've talked about here. I am not criticizing him for not getting Castillo, instead just offering up a possible scenario where you'd look back at this lack of a move and regret not getting one of the few guys that could offset the loss of Walker's bat.

 

2B has not been a concern of mine at all. Well, it's been a concern to the extent that so many things seem to be pointing to a trade of Walker and the possible inclusion of Neifi in the lineup on a regular basis. But I never pined after Castillo, so I've got no reason to criticize him for not getting Castillo right now. If he holds onto Walker and improves this team elsewhere, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

[goonys evil twin]

Sorry, I'm not telling you how to judge Hendry but I do stand by my earlier comments. It's hard to say he isn't doing anything we just having seen the fruits of it yet.

 

But some people can look at what he's done in 3 years, form a reasonable opinion about his tendencies, and say he hasn't done a thing to improve the team. Whether or not he's trying to is irrelevent, it's whether or not he has that's the issue. So far, he hasn't improved the team to any significant amount in my opinion. And I don't get why people get criticized for pointing that out.

[jmajew]

I truly believe that you cannot judge a GM's offseason until after the following season. Meaning you can't judge Hendry's offseason till next October.

 

If I remember correctly, every White Sox fan last year was furioius with Ken Williams for trading for Podsednik and for letting Mags go and signing Jermaine Dye instead.

 

Whether a team is gonna be great is really a craphshoot. We all thought that the Yankees had bought one of the best pitching staffs in baseball last year. Look what happened to that.

 

Granted I am disappointed we did not go after Castillo, however, I am going to give Hendry the benefit of the doubt. I assume he has a strategy, albeit not the same one as mine, and knows what he is doing.

 

Just to add I don't think Hendry has done a bad job the past two offseasons. After 2003 we signed Maddux and kept the rest of the team basically the same. We all thought we were gonna be better. Last year his hands were tied because of Sosa. Yes, he did let Moises go but I think that was because of the Sosa ordeal. Going into this past season I thought we had a good team. The lineup we had seemed very solid to me atleast. Patterson, Walker, Nomar, Ramirez, Lee, Burnitz, Hollandsworth, Barrett.

 

To get back to my point, hold judgement till after the season and don't blame the GM for injuries. These guys aren't able to predict if someone will get hit on the elbow by a line drive, have a freak groin injury, or blow out their elbows. You never know what could happen. Ken Williams was an idiot going into this past season now he is considered a genious.