Welcome to Hell: 2005 World Series (Sox Win 4-0)

[CaliforniaRaisin]

For all of those who have spent a lifetime ridiculing the Sox, their ballpark and their fans, I expect it's going to come back in spades. Saying they are lucky and don't deserve to win is like the idiotic Red Sox fans who chant "Yankees Suck!"

 

Maybe, but not in spades. Chicago will still be a Cubs town, the media will be talking about the Cubs more than the Sox in a few months, the Cell will return to it's nominal half-full status next season, and the Sox will still be the bastard stepchild of Chicago baseball.

 

Actually, I think your terribly wrong here.

 

I teach 7th graders, and I'm seeing an entire generation fo kids becoming Sox fans. Yes, kids are fickle, but our "loveable" failures, personalities and better ball park all fade when a team 8 miles south is holding up a World Series trophy. Despite the "edge" in popularity and the better environment and history, people are going to flock to the White Sox because they're winners. Heck, the Bulls sold out for 3 years after the last Championship, as bad as they were.

 

I really believe that this is terrible for the Cubs. Unless we start off hot next year, and build up a mojo that we can follow the pair of Soxes that broke their long droughts, I don't see us having any of the attention that the Sox will get. And even if we start off hot, guys like Wood, Baker, and Patterson will buckle under any pressure and destroy the possiblity of anything good happening. This could become a fundamental change in the way Chicagoans view baseball. Hell, the Southside may become even further revived because of interest in the area. It won't be Wrigleyville, but maybe it gets better.

 

I'm not just guessing, but I'm SEEING children fall in love these guys. Hispanic kids, black kids, Asian kids are all talking about the Sox. It's cool to see them all jacked up, but heartbreaking that it can't be our Cubbies.

 

The tide is turning more than you realize. :cry:

 

Funny thing about a bandwagon: people jump off as quickly as they jumped on. Especially with kids. Unless they sustain for a few years, I wouldn't be too concerned. And with that clown Williams making ther personnel decisions, I don't think that's likely.

 

The difference with this bandwagon is that they actually have a championship, which will keep fans in, remembering that. The effect of a Chicago baseball championship is still unknown.

[XZero771679666304]

 

The difference with this bandwagon is that they actually have a championship, which will keep fans in, remembering that. The effect of a Chicago baseball championship is still unknown.

 

Did it do the Marlins any good? If you have a poor fan base, a championship (or even two) does little to change anything, beyond a momentary burp in attendance. The White Sox winning the WS may have an effect, but I sincerely doubt that the Cubs stranglehold on the Chicago market is any real danger. I just can't see too many Cubs fans jumping from one side to the other, especially considering the animosity.

[Brian]

 

The difference with this bandwagon is that they actually have a championship, which will keep fans in, remembering that. The effect of a Chicago baseball championship is still unknown.

 

Did it do the Marlins any good? If you have a poor fan base, a championship (or even two) does little to change anything, beyond a momentary burp in attendance. The White Sox winning the WS may have an effect, but I sincerely doubt that the Cubs stranglehold on the Chicago market is any real danger. I just can't see too many Cubs fans jumping from one side to the other, especially considering the animosity.

 

Marlins isn't a good example, because there isn't another team in the same city, let alone one that consistently sells out.

[goonys evil twin]

 

The difference with this bandwagon is that they actually have a championship, which will keep fans in, remembering that. The effect of a Chicago baseball championship is still unknown.

 

Did it do the Marlins any good? If you have a poor fan base, a championship (or even two) does little to change anything, beyond a momentary burp in attendance. The White Sox winning the WS may have an effect, but I sincerely doubt that the Cubs stranglehold on the Chicago market is any real danger. I just can't see too many Cubs fans jumping from one side to the other, especially considering the animosity.

 

I don't think there's a good comparison with Florida. The White Sox have a long history, and have, at times in the past, been more popular than the Cubs. I don't think this WS would completely change everything, but I fully expect a large upswing in attendance and ratings next year for the WS, and after two consecutive disappointments, there will be a decline with the Cubs. Sox fans abandoned that team in the 90's, and have been slow to return. But they're still out there, and they'll be back. I don't think it'll have a negative effect on the Cubs though. The Cubs have a lot more to worry about with their own ineptitude than with any Sox success.

[cubssox fan]

My view on things is the sox attendence will go up a lot maybe 33,000-35,000 per game.. this season it was at 28,000..... but the cubs have a huge fanbase and a lot of them come from outside of the city where they would have no want to switch teams no matter who wins the WS. As for the local media Id say the Sox will get a lot more than last year but should be even unless 1 team is losing and the other is winning.....On ESPN the sox will get a lot of attention too but if the sox ever want to have a larger or equal fanbase to the cubs... the Cubs need to keep losing and the Sox winning.

[RationalSoxFan]

For all of those who have spent a lifetime ridiculing the Sox, their ballpark and their fans, I expect it's going to come back in spades. Saying they are lucky and don't deserve to win is like the idiotic Red Sox fans who chant "Yankees Suck!"

 

Maybe, but not in spades. Chicago will still be a Cubs town, the media will be talking about the Cubs more than the Sox in a few months, the Cell will return to it's nominal half-full status next season, and the Sox will still be the bastard stepchild of Chicago baseball.

 

Actually, I think your terribly wrong here.

 

I teach 7th graders, and I'm seeing an entire generation fo kids becoming Sox fans. Yes, kids are fickle, but our "loveable" failures, personalities and better ball park all fade when a team 8 miles south is holding up a World Series trophy. Despite the "edge" in popularity and the better environment and history, people are going to flock to the White Sox because they're winners. Heck, the Bulls sold out for 3 years after the last Championship, as bad as they were.

 

I really believe that this is terrible for the Cubs. Unless we start off hot next year, and build up a mojo that we can follow the pair of Soxes that broke their long droughts, I don't see us having any of the attention that the Sox will get. And even if we start off hot, guys like Wood, Baker, and Patterson will buckle under any pressure and destroy the possiblity of anything good happening. This could become a fundamental change in the way Chicagoans view baseball. Hell, the Southside may become even further revived because of interest in the area. It won't be Wrigleyville, but maybe it gets better.

 

I'm not just guessing, but I'm SEEING children fall in love these guys. Hispanic kids, black kids, Asian kids are all talking about the Sox. It's cool to see them all jacked up, but heartbreaking that it can't be our Cubbies.

 

The tide is turning more than you realize. :cry:

 

Funny thing about a bandwagon: people jump off as quickly as they jumped on. Especially with kids. Unless they sustain for a few years, I wouldn't be too concerned. And with that clown Williams making ther personnel decisions, I don't think that's likely.

Could you elaborate on why Kenny Williams is a clown? Keep in mind that the trade of Lee was to free up payroll for signing Iguchi and AJP.

[Andy]

Could you elaborate on why Kenny Williams is a clown? Keep in mind that the trade of Lee was to free up payroll for signing Iguchi and AJP.

AJP was not a good signing. He's a clubhouse cancer (it takes a lot to be a bigger jerk than Barry in SF and AJ pulled it off), and if he wasn't buddies with Hawk Harrelson he would never have been sniffing a Sox uniform anyway.

 

Iguchi I can give Williams credit for, he was pretty good for them, although it's worth noting that he struck out 114 times this season and was nothing special in the field (14 errors).

 

The fact remains, though, that he unloaded a 35-home run hitter for a mediocre leadoff hitter in Podsednik (.313 OBP in 2004) and then plugged in Dye to fill the outfield spot, who hadn't had a good season this millennium and somehow ripped off a .274/31/86 for them.

 

Calling Williams a "clown" is probably overstating the case, but his moves this off-season really weren't that good. He was made to look smart because all those moves came through in spades with Dye having his best year since 2000 and Podsednik having the best of his three seasons in the majors. This Sox team really had marginally better talent than the 2004 version but had the advantage of about 10 players having their best years ever.

[CubinNY]

For a while back in the mid to late 80s NY was a Met town. The Mets were good they Yankees weren't. I suspect that could happen in Chicago. But Chicago will always be a Cub town just as NY will always be a Yankee town.

[cubssox fan]

For a while back in the mid to late 80s NY was a Met town. The Mets were good they Yankees weren't. I suspect that could happen in Chicago. But Chicago will always be a Cub town just as NY will always be a Yankee town.

 

 

Will if you go in the past Chicago used to be a Sox town. The Cubs will still be getting more pub and have more fans next season but this run will help the sox greatly. Especially if they make another run and the Cubs falter. One thing the Cubs dont have is the yankees history of success to fall back on when they are bad.

[CubinNY]

For a while back in the mid to late 80s NY was a Met town. The Mets were good they Yankees weren't. I suspect that could happen in Chicago. But Chicago will always be a Cub town just as NY will always be a Yankee town.

 

 

Will if you go in the past Chicago used to be a Sox town. The Cubs will still be getting more pub and have more fans next season but this run will help the sox greatly. Especially if they make another run and the Cubs falter. One thing the Cubs dont have is the yankees history of success to fall back on when they are bad.

 

When was Chicago a Sox town? Not in my life time and I'm 36.

[J.R.]

I'm sick over this garbage, but I assume the MLB suits are quite pleased. The White Sox franchise was a black hole before; now MLB will have two viable franchises in a big-ass market.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

 

The difference with this bandwagon is that they actually have a championship, which will keep fans in, remembering that. The effect of a Chicago baseball championship is still unknown.

 

Did it do the Marlins any good? If you have a poor fan base, a championship (or even two) does little to change anything, beyond a momentary burp in attendance. The White Sox winning the WS may have an effect, but I sincerely doubt that the Cubs stranglehold on the Chicago market is any real danger. I just can't see too many Cubs fans jumping from one side to the other, especially considering the animosity.

 

I don't think there's a good comparison with Florida. The White Sox have a long history, and have, at times in the past, been more popular than the Cubs. I don't think this WS would completely change everything, but I fully expect a large upswing in attendance and ratings next year for the WS, and after two consecutive disappointments, there will be a decline with the Cubs. Sox fans abandoned that team in the 90's, and have been slow to return. But they're still out there, and they'll be back. I don't think it'll have a negative effect on the Cubs though. The Cubs have a lot more to worry about with their own ineptitude than with any Sox success.

 

I agree.

[Fred Hornkohl]

When was Chicago a Sox town? Not in my life time and I'm 36.

 

The white sox owned this city from the mid 50's through the mid 60's. During that time, their won/loss record was second only to the Yankees, and only by a margin of 53 wins over the 13 year period. I haven't yet found a source for the attendance figures from the period, but I don't believe I'm going out on a limb here saying they outdrew the CUBS by a pretty good margin. That all changed around 1967 when the CUBS under Durocher started winning and the white sox tanked. You must also realize that that was a completely different era in that back then you could go to either ball park an hour before game time, purchase a good seat, and walk in and see a game. Those days are gone forever, I'm afraid.

 

 

          1954 thru 1966                            World Series
team                        W       L     pct    PA     W     L

Chicago Cubs              876    1165   0.429     0     0     0
Chicago White Sox        1164     886   0.568     1     0     1

[cubssox fan]

Idonno the whitesox were outdrawing the cubs in the 80's 2 at least the early 80's....

[CubRock2]

 

The difference with this bandwagon is that they actually have a championship, which will keep fans in, remembering that. The effect of a Chicago baseball championship is still unknown.

 

Did it do the Marlins any good? If you have a poor fan base, a championship (or even two) does little to change anything, beyond a momentary burp in attendance. The White Sox winning the WS may have an effect, but I sincerely doubt that the Cubs stranglehold on the Chicago market is any real danger. I just can't see too many Cubs fans jumping from one side to the other, especially considering the animosity.

 

I don't think there's a good comparison with Florida. The White Sox have a long history, and have, at times in the past, been more popular than the Cubs. I don't think this WS would completely change everything, but I fully expect a large upswing in attendance and ratings next year for the WS, and after two consecutive disappointments, there will be a decline with the Cubs. Sox fans abandoned that team in the 90's, and have been slow to return. But they're still out there, and they'll be back. I don't think it'll have a negative effect on the Cubs though. The Cubs have a lot more to worry about with their own ineptitude than with any Sox success.

 

Goony's right. there's a heck of a lot of Sox fans out there. They don't tend to wear their heart on their sleave like we do, but they are there. And trust me, we'll see 'em... :roll:

[CubRock2]

Idonno the whitesox were outdrawing the cubs in the 80's 2 at least the early 80's....

 

Credit Ryne Sandberg for that change.

 

The Cubs owned the city from '83-05. That could change now. I don't know if it will. I think it will, but I'm no Nostradamus, either!

[RationalSoxFan]

Could you elaborate on why Kenny Williams is a clown? Keep in mind that the trade of Lee was to free up payroll for signing Iguchi and AJP.

AJP was not a good signing. He's a clubhouse cancer (it takes a lot to be a bigger jerk than Barry in SF and AJ pulled it off), and if he wasn't buddies with Hawk Harrelson he would never have been sniffing a Sox uniform anyway.

 

Iguchi I can give Williams credit for, he was pretty good for them, although it's worth noting that he struck out 114 times this season and was nothing special in the field (14 errors).

 

The fact remains, though, that he unloaded a 35-home run hitter for a mediocre leadoff hitter in Podsednik (.313 OBP in 2004) and then plugged in Dye to fill the outfield spot, who hadn't had a good season this millennium and somehow ripped off a .274/31/86 for them.

 

Calling Williams a "clown" is probably overstating the case, but his moves this off-season really weren't that good. He was made to look smart because all those moves came through in spades with Dye having his best year since 2000 and Podsednik having the best of his three seasons in the majors. This Sox team really had marginally better talent than the 2004 version but had the advantage of about 10 players having their best years ever.

How do you know that AJP is a clubhouse cancer? SF was the only place he's played where he wasn't loved by his teammates. He is still well liked by guys he played with in Minnesota, and is loved in Chicago. He isn't a cancer, maybe more of a edgy guy, something the team needed. And if you think AJ is a cancer, look at your "35 homer guy" Carlos Lee. He has no hustle on the basepaths, in the field, and he walks about as much as Tony Womack.

[Andy]

Could you elaborate on why Kenny Williams is a clown? Keep in mind that the trade of Lee was to free up payroll for signing Iguchi and AJP.

AJP was not a good signing. He's a clubhouse cancer (it takes a lot to be a bigger jerk than Barry in SF and AJ pulled it off), and if he wasn't buddies with Hawk Harrelson he would never have been sniffing a Sox uniform anyway.

 

Iguchi I can give Williams credit for, he was pretty good for them, although it's worth noting that he struck out 114 times this season and was nothing special in the field (14 errors).

 

The fact remains, though, that he unloaded a 35-home run hitter for a mediocre leadoff hitter in Podsednik (.313 OBP in 2004) and then plugged in Dye to fill the outfield spot, who hadn't had a good season this millennium and somehow ripped off a .274/31/86 for them.

 

Calling Williams a "clown" is probably overstating the case, but his moves this off-season really weren't that good. He was made to look smart because all those moves came through in spades with Dye having his best year since 2000 and Podsednik having the best of his three seasons in the majors. This Sox team really had marginally better talent than the 2004 version but had the advantage of about 10 players having their best years ever.

How do you know that AJP is a clubhouse cancer? SF was the only place he's played where he wasn't loved by his teammates. He is still well liked by guys he played with in Minnesota, and is loved in Chicago. He isn't a cancer, maybe more of a edgy guy, something the team needed. And if you think AJ is a cancer, look at your "35 homer guy" Carlos Lee. He has no hustle on the basepaths, in the field, and he walks about as much as Tony Womack.

How do I know? AJP was literally run out of San Francisco. He kneed a Giants trainer in the balls during his one-year tenure. The Sox teammates like him because he's like most of the rest of them and the SF teammates were not. The man almost approaches the personality of Barry Bonds, except that he doesn't put up ludicrous steroid-influenced numbers in the process. His smartass comment about not feeling lucky about the Game 2 ALCS win was a pretty good indicator.

[RationalSoxFan]

Could you elaborate on why Kenny Williams is a clown? Keep in mind that the trade of Lee was to free up payroll for signing Iguchi and AJP.

AJP was not a good signing. He's a clubhouse cancer (it takes a lot to be a bigger jerk than Barry in SF and AJ pulled it off), and if he wasn't buddies with Hawk Harrelson he would never have been sniffing a Sox uniform anyway.

 

Iguchi I can give Williams credit for, he was pretty good for them, although it's worth noting that he struck out 114 times this season and was nothing special in the field (14 errors).

 

The fact remains, though, that he unloaded a 35-home run hitter for a mediocre leadoff hitter in Podsednik (.313 OBP in 2004) and then plugged in Dye to fill the outfield spot, who hadn't had a good season this millennium and somehow ripped off a .274/31/86 for them.

 

Calling Williams a "clown" is probably overstating the case, but his moves this off-season really weren't that good. He was made to look smart because all those moves came through in spades with Dye having his best year since 2000 and Podsednik having the best of his three seasons in the majors. This Sox team really had marginally better talent than the 2004 version but had the advantage of about 10 players having their best years ever.

How do you know that AJP is a clubhouse cancer? SF was the only place he's played where he wasn't loved by his teammates. He is still well liked by guys he played with in Minnesota, and is loved in Chicago. He isn't a cancer, maybe more of a edgy guy, something the team needed. And if you think AJ is a cancer, look at your "35 homer guy" Carlos Lee. He has no hustle on the basepaths, in the field, and he walks about as much as Tony Womack.

How do I know? AJP was literally run out of San Francisco. He kneed a Giants trainer in the balls during his one-year tenure. The Sox teammates like him because he's like most of the rest of them and the SF teammates were not. The man almost approaches the personality of Barry Bonds, except that he doesn't put up ludicrous steroid-influenced numbers in the process. His smartass comment about not feeling lucky about the Game 2 ALCS win was a pretty good indicator.

Maybe the smartass comment had a lot more to do with him being hated for running down to first, when it was the umpire that had everything to do with the blown call. And, if he's a cancer, what does that make Carlos Lee? SARS? Bird Flu?

[Fred Hornkohl]

Can the Astros avoid the sweep ??

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/images/logos/38x45/cws_38x45.gif Freddy Garcia

 

Podsednik, lf

Iguchi, 2b

Dye, rf

Konerko, 1b

Pierzynski, c

Rowand, cf

Crede, 3b

Uribe, ss

Garcia, p

 

@

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/images/logos/38x45/hou_38x45.gif Brandon Backe

 

Biggio, 2b

Taveras, cf

Berkman, lf

Ensberg, 3b

Lamb, 1b

Lane, rf

Ausmus, c

Everett, ss

Backe, p

Edited October 27, 2005 by Fred Hornkohl

[cubssox fan]

Could you elaborate on why Kenny Williams is a clown? Keep in mind that the trade of Lee was to free up payroll for signing Iguchi and AJP.

AJP was not a good signing. He's a clubhouse cancer (it takes a lot to be a bigger jerk than Barry in SF and AJ pulled it off), and if he wasn't buddies with Hawk Harrelson he would never have been sniffing a Sox uniform anyway.

 

Iguchi I can give Williams credit for, he was pretty good for them, although it's worth noting that he struck out 114 times this season and was nothing special in the field (14 errors).

 

The fact remains, though, that he unloaded a 35-home run hitter for a mediocre leadoff hitter in Podsednik (.313 OBP in 2004) and then plugged in Dye to fill the outfield spot, who hadn't had a good season this millennium and somehow ripped off a .274/31/86 for them.

 

Calling Williams a "clown" is probably overstating the case, but his moves this off-season really weren't that good. He was made to look smart because all those moves came through in spades with Dye having his best year since 2000 and Podsednik having the best of his three seasons in the majors. This Sox team really had marginally better talent than the 2004 version but had the advantage of about 10 players having their best years ever.

How do you know that AJP is a clubhouse cancer? SF was the only place he's played where he wasn't loved by his teammates. He is still well liked by guys he played with in Minnesota, and is loved in Chicago. He isn't a cancer, maybe more of a edgy guy, something the team needed. And if you think AJ is a cancer, look at your "35 homer guy" Carlos Lee. He has no hustle on the basepaths, in the field, and he walks about as much as Tony Womack.

How do I know? AJP was literally run out of San Francisco. He kneed a Giants trainer in the balls during his one-year tenure. The Sox teammates like him because he's like most of the rest of them and the SF teammates were not. The man almost approaches the personality of Barry Bonds, except that he doesn't put up ludicrous steroid-influenced numbers in the process. His smartass comment about not feeling lucky about the Game 2 ALCS win was a pretty good indicator.

Maybe the smartass comment had a lot more to do with him being hated for running down to first, when it was the umpire that had everything to do with the blown call. And, if he's a cancer, what does that make Carlos Lee? SARS? Bird Flu?

 

Would you stop being an ass? If your a rational soxfan your not going to come to a cubs board and question them about everything. AJP is different thats for sure. In some clubhouses he can be a cancer in some he wont. He was a perfect fit for the twins but didnt fit in well with the Giants. I like him as a sox and him, Rowand, and Crede supposedly are really good friends now but yeah in the wrong circumstances he can be a cancer.

[RationalSoxFan]

Could you elaborate on why Kenny Williams is a clown? Keep in mind that the trade of Lee was to free up payroll for signing Iguchi and AJP.

AJP was not a good signing. He's a clubhouse cancer (it takes a lot to be a bigger jerk than Barry in SF and AJ pulled it off), and if he wasn't buddies with Hawk Harrelson he would never have been sniffing a Sox uniform anyway.

 

Iguchi I can give Williams credit for, he was pretty good for them, although it's worth noting that he struck out 114 times this season and was nothing special in the field (14 errors).

 

The fact remains, though, that he unloaded a 35-home run hitter for a mediocre leadoff hitter in Podsednik (.313 OBP in 2004) and then plugged in Dye to fill the outfield spot, who hadn't had a good season this millennium and somehow ripped off a .274/31/86 for them.

 

Calling Williams a "clown" is probably overstating the case, but his moves this off-season really weren't that good. He was made to look smart because all those moves came through in spades with Dye having his best year since 2000 and Podsednik having the best of his three seasons in the majors. This Sox team really had marginally better talent than the 2004 version but had the advantage of about 10 players having their best years ever.

How do you know that AJP is a clubhouse cancer? SF was the only place he's played where he wasn't loved by his teammates. He is still well liked by guys he played with in Minnesota, and is loved in Chicago. He isn't a cancer, maybe more of a edgy guy, something the team needed. And if you think AJ is a cancer, look at your "35 homer guy" Carlos Lee. He has no hustle on the basepaths, in the field, and he walks about as much as Tony Womack.

How do I know? AJP was literally run out of San Francisco. He kneed a Giants trainer in the balls during his one-year tenure. The Sox teammates like him because he's like most of the rest of them and the SF teammates were not. The man almost approaches the personality of Barry Bonds, except that he doesn't put up ludicrous steroid-influenced numbers in the process. His smartass comment about not feeling lucky about the Game 2 ALCS win was a pretty good indicator.

Maybe the smartass comment had a lot more to do with him being hated for running down to first, when it was the umpire that had everything to do with the blown call. And, if he's a cancer, what does that make Carlos Lee? SARS? Bird Flu?

 

Would you stop being an ass? If your a rational soxfan your not going to come to a cubs board and question them about everything. AJP is different thats for sure. In some clubhouses he can be a cancer in some he wont. He was a perfect fit for the twins but didnt fit in well with the Giants. I like him as a sox and him, Rowand, and Crede supposedly are really good friends now but yeah in the wrong circumstances he can be a cancer.

I guess if I was a fan of both teams I could go to any board and say whatever I wanted.

[Mark_R]

And if you think AJ is a cancer, look at your "35 homer guy" Carlos Lee. He has no hustle on the basepaths, in the field, and he walks about as much as Tony Womack.

 

I'm glad the "rational" sox fan lambasts Carlos Lee for not taking walks (57 in 05), when his boy AJ walked only 23 times.

[Andy]

I'll watch this game, but I'm turning it off before it ends so I don't have to watch the celebration. Too depressing.

[RationalSoxFan]

And if you think AJ is a cancer, look at your "35 homer guy" Carlos Lee. He has no hustle on the basepaths, in the field, and he walks about as much as Tony Womack.

 

I'm glad the "rational" sox fan lambasts Carlos Lee for not taking walks (57 in 05), when his boy AJ walked only 23 times.

Carlos is a corner outfielder who has a lead glove therefore his ability is dependant on his home runs. His salary is too much for his minimal production. AJ is a cheap catcher who prior to this year hit for average.