Steroid talks starting up again...

[erik316wttn]

So once again the steroid talks are happening on Capitol Hill. John McCain called out Fehr, asking him "Don't you get it??"

 

Another Congressman chastised the Player's Union, saying "You only act when Congress threatens you." (Which is true.)

 

Selig's new punishment proposal is as follows....

 

1st offense: 50 games

 

2nd offense: 100 games

 

3rd offense: lifetime ban

 

The players union proposes

 

1st offense: 20 games

 

2nd offense: 75 games

 

3rd offense: Selig's choice.

 

Congress wants

 

1st offense: 2-year ban

 

2nd offense: lifetime ban

 

 

What, if anything, do you think will come from this? I think if the Player's Union would take Selig's proposal, it would satisfy Congress. Congress is really serious this time (wish we could get them to move this fast on other matters, but that's another thread).

 

Personally, I think Congress's proposal would be a wee bit harsh. If baseball would not provide every player with up-to-date lists (in english, spanish, korean, japanese, etc) of ALL banned substances, and every known suppliment, medication, cream, etc they're found in, an honest mistake is bound to happen by someone and thier career would likely be ruined because of it.

 

What are your thoughts? I think Selig's proposal would work, or, if you want to go harsher, go 100/1 calendar year/life.

[Jon]

They'd never be able to keep that list up-to-date, though. If the union bumped up the first offense to a month with a thorough appeals process, that'll be plenty for me.

 

Congress' demands are terribly unrealistic and ultimately unfair.

[ZMovieman]

I'm more inclined to go with Selig's proposal. And you gotta figure that the player's union knows that if a 3rd offense happened under their plan, Selig would jump to his plan and boot him entirely.

[CubfaninCA]

They'd never be able to keep that list up-to-date, though. If the union bumped up the first offense to a month with a thorough appeals process, that'll be plenty for me.

 

Congress' demands are terribly unrealistic and ultimately unfair.

 

Just a classic Congress/Sales proposal... Shoot real high. Hoping for something in between.

[adamb0719]

I think the players union is the best possible proposal. there is a jump of over 3x the games suspended between one and two violations, and I think it is pretty obvious that the Selig's suggestion would be a lifetime ban. Congress' is just to extreme, especially considering the amount of substances out there that are not illegal now but may be soon. Just not enough room for honest mistakes IMO. The PU addresses this probability in a fair way. A harsh, but not too severe penalty for the first offense. Second time and you will miss roughly half the season. (Can't really use the I didn't know excuse more than once). Third time you just don't get it, and don't deserve to play. I think if Congress sees lifetime ban as one of the penalties they will be satisfied.

[bhogg]

i like congress' proposal.

 

who gives a crap about a list.

 

 

how hard is it for a ballplayer to understand "don't take anything that could jeopardize your career?"

[CuseCubFan69]

By the time this all goes into effect the players will have another way to cheat. I hope these suspentions are far reaching and don't just say steroids.

 

Also, the way MLB delayed Raffys sentence I see no way to trust them if another high profiled player got caught. It just seems too much like a Chicago Ballot Box to me.

[cubbieinexile]

I would ove to see somebody with cojones say "stuff it" to Congress. Its a bluff by Congress but unfortunately baseball is owned by businessmen and they can't afford to tick off the Congress. This legislation is deadly and could have huge ramifications to everybody and their daily lives. Everybody should be against this, it opens the door to so many abuse of powers that it isn't even a joke anymore. its serious now.

 

The government in effect is saying that if you do something we do not like we will not let you work in your chosen field. Regardless of what your employer or you decide about the severity of the event. That is a horrible precedent.

 

 

This is another example of the citizens demanding results and not caring about the repercussions. Lynch Mobs, Internment Camps, and the Patriot Act are the end results of a society with its dander up but with no clear idea of how to achieve something. Because what they want to achieve does not exist, they merely want comfort in their mind about how the world exists.

[goonys evil twin]

I would ove to see somebody with cojones say "stuff it" to Congress. Its a bluff by Congress but unfortunately baseball is owned by businessmen and they can't afford to tick off the Congress. This legislation is deadly and could have huge ramifications to everybody and their daily lives.

 

If you really believe what you're saying about the dangers of potential legislation, then you certainly shouldn't hope the league tells congress to stuff it. At that point they will be forced to actually do something. What you should hope is for MLB and MLBPA to come to a solid plan, so congress doesn't have to intervene and risk setting a precedent for other walks of life.

[erik316wttn]

I should also note that Congress did not just include steriods, but all "illegal substances" including pot, cocaine, etc.

[cubbieinexile]

If you really believe what you're saying about the dangers of potential legislation, then you certainly shouldn't hope the league tells congress to stuff it. At that point they will be forced to actually do something. What you should hope is for MLB and MLBPA to come to a solid plan, so congress doesn't have to intervene and risk setting a precedent for other walks of life.

 

No I want the league to say stuff it so that a business that has sizable resources can fight the legislation. Bullies are only defeated when you stand up to them and beat them. If you acquiesce then its gets worse not better. If MLB complies with Congress because they don't want legislation then it gets worse because then they strong arm even more so that those being strong arm conform even more into their worldview.

 

Look at McCarthyism, everybody went along and it got worse. The Army did not back down and they broke McCarthy and the red scare. The Army had the resources to do it but unfortunately for us McCarthy did not start with the Army first. It crushed the smaller people first the ones who did not have the resources to fight and thus they were swallowed up and had their lives shattered. Fortunately for us Congress has started with the big 800 lb gorilla first, so if they stand up to the bully then it is possible that us little peons will not get crushed.

[CarolinaCubFan]

i like congress' proposal.

 

who gives a crap about a list.

 

 

how hard is it for a ballplayer to understand "don't take anything that could jeopardize your career?"

 

Thank you. You think a guy making a couple million bucks a year might be able to take a little responsiblity. I'm all for a lifetime ban right off the bat. The reprocutions of steriods haven't been fully realized yet in my opinion.

 

All the stories of kids taking steriods.......

 

Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth, and all the other stars that played with talent alone, yet being passed by cheaters in the record books........

 

My stack of Sammy, Barry, Raffy, and McGuire rookies which are now worthless.........

 

Yeah, lets blame congress for being to hard on our heroes :roll:

[erik316wttn]

i like congress' proposal.

 

who gives a crap about a list.

 

 

how hard is it for a ballplayer to understand "don't take anything that could jeopardize your career?"

 

Thank you. You think a guy making a couple million bucks a year might be able to take a little responsiblity. I'm all for a lifetime ban right off the bat. The reprocutions of steriods haven't been fully realized yet in my opinion.

 

All the stories of kids taking steriods.......

 

Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth, and all the other stars that played with talent alone, yet being passed by cheaters in the record books........

 

My stack of Sammy, Barry, Raffy, and McGuire rookies which are now worthless.........

 

Yeah, lets blame congress for being to hard on our heroes :roll:

 

I don't see what you people have against a list making players aware of what they can take and what they can't. Trust me, this isn't just "Don't take anabolic steroids." There are plenty of things in suppliments and stuff that they could get busted for if they're not careful. I think baseball would be wise to at least inform all thier players in thier native tounge on paper of what banned substances are found in what. That way there is no excuse whatsoever. It reduces the amount of "Oh, well I didn't know that a banned substance was in this over-the-counter suppliment I took!" stories that we hear.

 

And as to your second point..... If you have a hornets nest outside of your home, do you spray it with hornet killer or call an exterminator, or do you blow up your house? Both get rid of your hornet problem, but only one makes sense.

[CarolinaCubFan]

i like congress' proposal.

 

who gives a crap about a list.

 

 

how hard is it for a ballplayer to understand "don't take anything that could jeopardize your career?"

 

Thank you. You think a guy making a couple million bucks a year might be able to take a little responsiblity. I'm all for a lifetime ban right off the bat. The reprocutions of steriods haven't been fully realized yet in my opinion.

 

All the stories of kids taking steriods.......

 

Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth, and all the other stars that played with talent alone, yet being passed by cheaters in the record books........

 

My stack of Sammy, Barry, Raffy, and McGuire rookies which are now worthless.........

 

Yeah, lets blame congress for being to hard on our heroes :roll:

 

I don't see what you people have against a list making players aware of what they can take and what they can't. Trust me, this isn't just "Don't take anabolic steroids." There are plenty of things in suppliments and stuff that they could get busted for if they're not careful. I think baseball would be wise to at least inform all thier players in thier native tounge on paper of what banned substances are found in what. That way there is no excuse whatsoever. It reduces the amount of "Oh, well I didn't know that a banned substance was in this over-the-counter suppliment I took!" stories that we hear.

 

And as to your second point..... If you have a hornets nest outside of your home, do you spray it with hornet killer or call an exterminator, or do you blow up your house? Both get rid of your hornet problem, but only one makes sense.

 

I don't have a problem with making a list, but that isn't the solution. Zero Tolerance, period. Let's say a buddy of yours feeds you some "magic" brownies because he thought it'd be funny. If your employer drug tests you and you fail, will they say "Oh!! You didn't know you were taking it?, so don't worry about it". Professional athletes should be held to the same standard as the fans that pay their salaries.

 

I understand your point and agree that players need to know what they can or can't take. If they feel the need to take a performance enhancing drug, it is the PLAYERS responsibility to make sure it is legal.

[Soul]

Most people would be canned and/or jailed if they pulled up with illegal substances in their bodies. End of story, end of life.

 

If they tried to say "somebody slipped them to me in my brownies" it would take a little longer: jail time would occur *after* everyone got through rolling on the floor in laughter.

 

But with ballplayers, they get unlimited chances to break the law and all they get is a little slap on the wrist as they plan to write a multi-million dollar best selling book that tells half the story.

 

Anyone feeling sorry for Raffy? God, I hope not. The guy can cry in his bottle of Dom as he is chauffered to his mansion by his exclusive staff of handmaidens. Poor baby. I don't see anyone taking away all that cash he cheated to make. As Dennis Leary says, "THAT would be more refreshing."

 

There are dozens of other ballplayers out there who cheated just as badly as Raffy. You can count on that. I hope they nail them all, but I'm realistic enough to understand most of them will probably never be totally caught. Thank God Raffy was.

[erik316wttn]

Please don't assume I'm easy on steriod testing. I'm not. I would not have qualms at all about an 81 game regular-season suspension (including a post-season ban if applicable) for the first offense, 162 games for the second, and life for the third.

 

However, I'm also a firm believer in "everyone deserves a second chance" in society in most cases. If you murder someone in cold blood? No, you don't. However, if you do something like illegal drugs, I am ok with someone getting a second chance after a punishment. However, I have problems with third, fourth, fifth chances.

 

But if Rookie Player A takes Over-the-counter Suppliment "B", and the 34th ingredient on the bottle contains one extremely small metric measurement of "Not illegal but banned by MLB substance nobody has ever heard of except doctors or scientists", do I believe that player should be banned for life? No. Punished? Yes, but that player deserves a second chance if it was an honest mistake.

 

However, if Veteran player A jabs a needle full of banned substance B into his ass, knowing full well what he's doing, then yes, I have no problem with a lifetime ban.

 

Unfortuantely, since you can't take it case by case, I think you need to be harsh (but not extremely harsh) in a first offense.

 

MLB should update the banned substances list 3 times per year, and should make a copy available to every player on every team in thier native language for them to keep, as well as to minor leaguers on the 40-man rosters. Then, as you said, it would be up to the players to see what is in the suppliments, etc, that they're putting in thier bodies, and check it on the list.

[cubbieinexile]

All the stories of kids taking steriods.......

 

Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth, and all the other stars that played with talent alone, yet being passed by cheaters in the record books........

 

My stack of Sammy, Barry, Raffy, and McGuire rookies which are now worthless.........

 

Yeah, lets blame congress for being to hard on our heroes :roll:

 

Except your heroes didn't do it on talent alone. Probably every single athlete in professional sports history has looked for an artificial edge. Its just that with steroids it actually worked.

 

You think old ballplayers were were using chewing tobacco because they liked the taste of it? You think Willie Mays used speed for medical reasons?

[cubbieinexile]

Oh and everybody wants to act all high and mighty when it comes to other people but when it concerns them they want everybody to be leniant. The best thing I can think of to say is would you want that to happen to you. One incident regardless of why it happened and you can no longer work in your chosen profession? One incident and you are banned for two years? In life and in society we are given plenty of chances but for some reason we hold are athletic entertainers to a higher standard then we wish others to hold us too.

 

Nobody ever asks a police officer to write them a speeding ticket.

[Careless]

i like congress' proposal.

 

who gives a crap about a list.

 

 

how hard is it for a ballplayer to understand "don't take anything that could jeopardize your career?"

 

Thank you. You think a guy making a couple million bucks a year might be able to take a little responsiblity. I'm all for a lifetime ban right off the bat. The reprocutions of steriods haven't been fully realized yet in my opinion.

 

All the stories of kids taking steriods.......

 

Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth, and all the other stars that played with talent alone, yet being passed by cheaters in the record books........

 

My stack of Sammy, Barry, Raffy, and McGuire rookies which are now worthless.........

 

Yeah, lets blame congress for being to hard on our heroes :roll:

 

I don't see what you people have against a list making players aware of what they can take and what they can't. Trust me, this isn't just "Don't take anabolic steroids." There are plenty of things in suppliments and stuff that they could get busted for if they're not careful. I think baseball would be wise to at least inform all thier players in thier native tounge on paper of what banned substances are found in what. That way there is no excuse whatsoever. It reduces the amount of "Oh, well I didn't know that a banned substance was in this over-the-counter suppliment I took!" stories that we hear.

 

And as to your second point..... If you have a hornets nest outside of your home, do you spray it with hornet killer or call an exterminator, or do you blow up your house? Both get rid of your hornet problem, but only one makes sense.

 

I don't have a problem with making a list, but that isn't the solution. Zero Tolerance, period. Let's say a buddy of yours feeds you some "magic" brownies because he thought it'd be funny. If your employer drug tests you and you fail, will they say "Oh!! You didn't know you were taking it?, so don't worry about it". Professional athletes should be held to the same standard as the fans that pay their salaries.

 

I understand your point and agree that players need to know what they can or can't take. If they feel the need to take a performance enhancing drug, it is the PLAYERS responsibility to make sure it is legal.

And you wouldn't get a lifetime ban. Not even close. You'll likely take a salary knock if you're white collar, maybe hurt your promotion chances, etc, but you won't be unemployed forever.

Your argument gets an F

[NewUserName]

Untill games are forfeited because a player is cheating than they are missing the mark. The games are played to be won not to set personnal records. If users had to tell their teamates they have lost everygame this year because of their use it would stop. GMs wouldnt sign players who everyone knows is on them. Managers wouldnt play them. Other players would call them out. Same as spitballers and bat corkers. Untill this happens everything else is just window dressing. I also think that some managers and GMs dont care if their players are using as long as they dont get caught. I also think that MLB really doesnt care about anyones health, they are just concerned about their image.

 

As for Congress and Sen Mclain. Dont you see Dont you see. It isnt donald Fehr that has created this monster it is us the fan. Overstepping your constitutional authority for some extra votes isnt going to do any good and will only harm the country down the road

[CarolinaCubFan]

i like congress' proposal.

 

who gives a crap about a list.

 

 

how hard is it for a ballplayer to understand "don't take anything that could jeopardize your career?"

 

Thank you. You think a guy making a couple million bucks a year might be able to take a little responsiblity. I'm all for a lifetime ban right off the bat. The reprocutions of steriods haven't been fully realized yet in my opinion.

 

All the stories of kids taking steriods.......

 

Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth, and all the other stars that played with talent alone, yet being passed by cheaters in the record books........

 

My stack of Sammy, Barry, Raffy, and McGuire rookies which are now worthless.........

 

Yeah, lets blame congress for being to hard on our heroes :roll:

 

I don't see what you people have against a list making players aware of what they can take and what they can't. Trust me, this isn't just "Don't take anabolic steroids." There are plenty of things in suppliments and stuff that they could get busted for if they're not careful. I think baseball would be wise to at least inform all thier players in thier native tounge on paper of what banned substances are found in what. That way there is no excuse whatsoever. It reduces the amount of "Oh, well I didn't know that a banned substance was in this over-the-counter suppliment I took!" stories that we hear.

 

And as to your second point..... If you have a hornets nest outside of your home, do you spray it with hornet killer or call an exterminator, or do you blow up your house? Both get rid of your hornet problem, but only one makes sense.

 

I don't have a problem with making a list, but that isn't the solution. Zero Tolerance, period. Let's say a buddy of yours feeds you some "magic" brownies because he thought it'd be funny. If your employer drug tests you and you fail, will they say "Oh!! You didn't know you were taking it?, so don't worry about it". Professional athletes should be held to the same standard as the fans that pay their salaries.

 

I understand your point and agree that players need to know what they can or can't take. If they feel the need to take a performance enhancing drug, it is the PLAYERS responsibility to make sure it is legal.

And you wouldn't get a lifetime ban. Not even close. You'll likely take a salary knock if you're white collar, maybe hurt your promotion chances, etc, but you won't be unemployed forever.

Your argument gets an F

 

I think you should look in your 8 ball again. What career field is it exactly that will over look a drug test? McDonalds? Burger King? I'm sure there are companies out there that would over look it, but from my experience, Zero Tolerance means Zero Tolerance.

[CarolinaCubFan]

Oh and everybody wants to act all high and mighty when it comes to other people but when it concerns them they want everybody to be leniant. The best thing I can think of to say is would you want that to happen to you. One incident regardless of why it happened and you can no longer work in your chosen profession? One incident and you are banned for two years? In life and in society we are given plenty of chances but for some reason we hold are athletic entertainers to a higher standard then we wish others to hold us too.

 

Nobody ever asks a police officer to write them a speeding ticket.

 

I'm not even sure how to respond to your posts, so I'll just keep my mouth shut on this one.

[Flames24Rulz]

i agree with Congress' proposal...the penalty system MLB has right now is a flat out joke. Players would definitely stop taking illegal substances if a 2 year ban with no pay is the 1st offense.

[cubbieinexile]

i agree with Congress' proposal...the penalty system MLB has right now is a flat out joke. Players would definitely stop taking illegal substances if a 2 year ban with no pay is the 1st offense.

 

Just like nobody kills anybody, or nobody uses drugs because they don't want to go away for life.

 

No amount of punishment has ever been enough to solve anything. Jails, punishment, secret police, torture, none of it has stamped out the ills of society. If anything it just magnifies the problem by making it more secretive, more efficient, and more dangerous.

[cubbieinexile]

 

I'm not even sure how to respond to your posts, so I'll just keep my mouth shut on this one.

 

Writing a post in which you say you will not write a post, interesting.