anyone else worried about prior?

[neely crenshaw]

I don't know that I am that worried about Prior so much as Baker's use of Prior now that they are out of it.

 

If you look at Prior's game by game log his ERA is inflated by 2 or 3 really bad starts. The May 1st 8 runs against the Astros, July 7th 6 runs against the Braves, and Aug 4th 6 runs against the Phils. His ERA is his other 23 starts is 2.85. Now truthfully this compairson is a bit artifical because every pitcher has bad games, but in 90% of his starts he has pitched pretty well.

 

Out of 26 starts this season he has 21 quality starts. Three of the non quality starts were the previously mentioned blow up games. One was a 5 innning game where he gave up 3 runs. And the last was the game where he was injured by the line drive.

 

Saying all that I think Prior still needs to work on being more efficent with his pitches. I think he wastes too many pitches and could afford to be more agressive against hitters.

 

But when you look back at this season you see a Prior who was darn near lights out before a traumatic injury to his elbow and still threw pretty good after coming back from it. If he can get a little luck next season and not have someone injure him I think we will see a consitently great Prior.

 

in this case quality starts is way over rated. a quality start is a 4.00 era and that is what prior has been giving us...but we need and expect much more. we will not get to the series with prior being a 4.00 pitcher! he has to become dominate

[TheDude]

I don't think it's a good idea to be shutting pitchers down if their health is in tact. Ultimately, these pitchers are going to have to be relied on over the course of a full season and I think it is in the club's long term interest to not baby them now. That's not to say you throw them to the wolves (and I certainly don't approve of Dusty's reckless disregard for pitch counts), but by getting them the experience of pitching over the course of a full season now, you are better preparing them for the future. The only way you are going to build up strength is to pitch.

I agree with you completely. There is no way pitchers should be shut down right now based on pure speculation. That really makes no sense. You want these pitchers to maintain arm strength.

 

Prior has not been "bad". He has been average and inconsistent over the last 6 weeks. He has walked more batters than he should have, and struggled with control, particularly that high fastball, exactly as a previous poster noted.

 

IMO, what Prior needs is more reps and rhythm. He has stopped and started so many times that he has been able to start games in a rhythm - the first inning has been a particular struggle for him. Shutting him down only slows down his progress back to ace-form.

[jjgman21]

while the broken elbow is one huge consideration, I've been saying for two months now that Mark Prior is causing himself and the Cubs alot of problems with his infatuation with the strike out.

 

groundout = flyout = popout = strikeout.

 

he does in 10 pitches what should be done in 4.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

while the broken elbow is one huge consideration, I've been saying for two months now that Mark Prior is causing himself and the Cubs alot of problems with his infatuation with the strike out.

 

groundout = flyout = popout = strikeout.

 

he does in 10 pitches what should be done in 4.

 

with men on base, that is not true. that's why a strikeout pitcher is preferred by some to pitcher who pitches to contact.

 

the drawback is the high pitch count...which doesn't matter if they aren't laboring, but obviously leads to stints on the DL if your manager is oblivous.

[cubweiser03]

Home runs. Way to many long balls. He's giving more home runs/inning than greg maddux. He's got a better BAA than in 03 but the long balls kill him. Hes just as hard to hit but when they hit em they are hitting it harder. Plus hes walking too many people. 3inn-1bb instead of 4-1 in 03.

[Tim]

Home runs. Way to many long balls. He's giving more home runs/inning than greg maddux. He's got a better BAA than in 03 but the long balls kill him. Hes just as hard to hit but when they hit em they are hitting it harder. Plus hes walking too many people. 3inn-1bb instead of 4-1 in 03.

That just says that the stuff is still there, but he's not as sharp with his location. Sometimes he's missing off the plate, but sometimes he's catching way too much of the zone.

[Knightlife_in_Lubbock]

Home runs. Way to many long balls. He's giving more home runs/inning than greg maddux. He's got a better BAA than in 03 but the long balls kill him. Hes just as hard to hit but when they hit em they are hitting it harder. Plus hes walking too many people. 3inn-1bb instead of 4-1 in 03.

That just says that the stuff is still there, but he's not as sharp with his location. Sometimes he's missing off the plate, but sometimes he's catching way too much of the zone.

 

Wouldn't that statement be true of most pitchers who's ERA is high?

[gus_dog]

I'm not worried - he's coming back from a broken arm - this season no less. Sure, it was a compression fracture, which heals quickly, but still.

 

Winter will serve him well, and I think we'll see the pre-injury Prior again next spring (barring any more injuries, of course).

[Tim]

Home runs. Way to many long balls. He's giving more home runs/inning than greg maddux. He's got a better BAA than in 03 but the long balls kill him. Hes just as hard to hit but when they hit em they are hitting it harder. Plus hes walking too many people. 3inn-1bb instead of 4-1 in 03.

That just says that the stuff is still there, but he's not as sharp with his location. Sometimes he's missing off the plate, but sometimes he's catching way too much of the zone.

 

Wouldn't that statement be true of most pitchers who's ERA is high?

The second part of the statement is really meant to be considered to be in combination with the first part. Given his K/9 and BAA, Prior's stuff is still way above average. He just has been susceptible to grooving more pitches than in the past.

[Laura]

I think Prior and Z would take it as an insult if you shut them down now. Instead, I'd just tell them that they're going to be limited to 90 or 100 pitches per outing and that the primary goal should be to see how efficiently they could use them.

 

Besides, they'd have to kill Zambrano to make him miss a start.

 

 

I've liked your idea for a while; too bad there's no one in place to implement such a common-sense approach.

[TheDude]

Home runs. Way to many long balls. He's giving more home runs/inning than greg maddux. He's got a better BAA than in 03 but the long balls kill him. Hes just as hard to hit but when they hit em they are hitting it harder. Plus hes walking too many people. 3inn-1bb instead of 4-1 in 03.

That just says that the stuff is still there, but he's not as sharp with his location. Sometimes he's missing off the plate, but sometimes he's catching way too much of the zone.

 

Wouldn't that statement be true of most pitchers who's ERA is high?

The second part of the statement is really meant to be considered to be in combination with the first part. Given his K/9 and BAA, Prior's stuff is still way above average. He just has been susceptible to grooving more pitches than in the past.

It goes hand in hand with the walk totals.

 

With his stuff, all he has to do is get ahead of hitters, and the ace shows up.

[jjgman21]

while the broken elbow is one huge consideration, I've been saying for two months now that Mark Prior is causing himself and the Cubs alot of problems with his infatuation with the strike out.

 

groundout = flyout = popout = strikeout.

 

he does in 10 pitches what should be done in 4.

 

with men on base, that is not true. that's why a strikeout pitcher is preferred by some to pitcher who pitches to contact.

 

the drawback is the high pitch count...which doesn't matter if they aren't laboring, but obviously leads to stints on the DL if your manager is oblivous.

 

it all depends on the situation. 99.9% of the time, a popout = strikeout, no matter what. in many situations, a groundout with a man on first is better than a strikeout, because of the potential to get two outs.

 

the point is this. his infatuation with the strikeout leads to high pitch counts. high pitch counts do matter, laboring or not, because it leads to the starter not working deep into a game. our bullpen sucks and has sucked all year and Prior has made zero adjustments to start pitching deeper into his starts.

 

what I would prefer is a pitcher who pitches to contact when he can and pitches for the strikeout when he needs to. Mark Prior tries to strike everyone out. its the same argument everyone has used to detract from Kerry Wood for years. the difference is Wood has always been called a thrower. Prior has always been called a pitcher, but I'm seeing less and less pitching out of Prior and more and more throwing.

 

its just another example of the rampant dumbness that infects this team. the whole damn roster is a little thin between the ears.

[Tim]

Home runs. Way to many long balls. He's giving more home runs/inning than greg maddux. He's got a better BAA than in 03 but the long balls kill him. Hes just as hard to hit but when they hit em they are hitting it harder. Plus hes walking too many people. 3inn-1bb instead of 4-1 in 03.

That just says that the stuff is still there, but he's not as sharp with his location. Sometimes he's missing off the plate, but sometimes he's catching way too much of the zone.

 

Wouldn't that statement be true of most pitchers who's ERA is high?

The second part of the statement is really meant to be considered to be in combination with the first part. Given his K/9 and BAA, Prior's stuff is still way above average. He just has been susceptible to grooving more pitches than in the past.

It goes hand in hand with the walk totals.

 

With his stuff, all he has to do is get ahead of hitters, and the ace shows up.

The home runs would argue otherwise.

 

No pitcher in MLB has stuff good enough that it can be thrown right down the middle and not get punished.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

I think Prior and Z would take it as an insult if you shut them down now. Instead, I'd just tell them that they're going to be limited to 90 or 100 pitches per outing and that the primary goal should be to see how efficiently they could use them.

 

Besides, they'd have to kill Zambrano to make him miss a start.

 

 

I've liked your idea for a while; too bad there's no one in place to implement such a common-sense approach.

 

I would just be happy to see Prior not have to labor to 120 pitches in his final 2 starts.

[Magnetic Curses]

while the broken elbow is one huge consideration, I've been saying for two months now that Mark Prior is causing himself and the Cubs alot of problems with his infatuation with the strike out.

 

groundout = flyout = popout = strikeout.

 

he does in 10 pitches what should be done in 4.

 

with men on base, that is not true. that's why a strikeout pitcher is preferred by some to pitcher who pitches to contact.

 

the drawback is the high pitch count...which doesn't matter if they aren't laboring, but obviously leads to stints on the DL if your manager is oblivous.

 

it all depends on the situation. 99.9% of the time, a popout = strikeout, no matter what. in many situations, a groundout with a man on first is better than a strikeout, because of the potential to get two outs.

 

the point is this. his infatuation with the strikeout leads to high pitch counts. high pitch counts do matter, laboring or not, because it leads to the starter not working deep into a game. our bullpen sucks and has sucked all year and Prior has made zero adjustments to start pitching deeper into his starts.

 

what I would prefer is a pitcher who pitches to contact when he can and pitches for the strikeout when he needs to. Mark Prior tries to strike everyone out. its the same argument everyone has used to detract from Kerry Wood for years. the difference is Wood has always been called a thrower. Prior has always been called a pitcher, but I'm seeing less and less pitching out of Prior and more and more throwing.

 

its just another example of the rampant dumbness that infects this team. the whole damn roster is a little thin between the ears.

 

untrue. strikeout and groundball pitchers are the most consistently effective pitchers in the majors.

 

pitchers who get more flyouts than groundouts and don't have high k rates generally suck.

[jjgman21]

while the broken elbow is one huge consideration, I've been saying for two months now that Mark Prior is causing himself and the Cubs alot of problems with his infatuation with the strike out.

 

groundout = flyout = popout = strikeout.

 

he does in 10 pitches what should be done in 4.

 

with men on base, that is not true. that's why a strikeout pitcher is preferred by some to pitcher who pitches to contact.

 

the drawback is the high pitch count...which doesn't matter if they aren't laboring, but obviously leads to stints on the DL if your manager is oblivous.

 

it all depends on the situation. 99.9% of the time, a popout = strikeout, no matter what. in many situations, a groundout with a man on first is better than a strikeout, because of the potential to get two outs.

 

the point is this. his infatuation with the strikeout leads to high pitch counts. high pitch counts do matter, laboring or not, because it leads to the starter not working deep into a game. our bullpen sucks and has sucked all year and Prior has made zero adjustments to start pitching deeper into his starts.

 

what I would prefer is a pitcher who pitches to contact when he can and pitches for the strikeout when he needs to. Mark Prior tries to strike everyone out. its the same argument everyone has used to detract from Kerry Wood for years. the difference is Wood has always been called a thrower. Prior has always been called a pitcher, but I'm seeing less and less pitching out of Prior and more and more throwing.

 

its just another example of the rampant dumbness that infects this team. the whole damn roster is a little thin between the ears.

 

untrue. strikeout and groundball pitchers are the most consistently effective pitchers in the majors.

 

pitchers who get more flyouts than groundouts and don't have high k rates generally suck.

 

I'm not sure what you are saying is untrue, or exactly where your point fits into the discussion. generally pitchers who average 7+ innings per start are the most consistently effective pitchers in the majors too.

 

I agree Mark Prior is one of the most consistently effective pitchers in baseball. he consistently gives the Cubs 6 innings of work and generally allows few runs in his outtings. unfortunately 6 innings of work isn't good enough with this team and I am of the opinion that if he didn't try to strike every batter out he would be able to go more than 6 innings per start.

[Magnetic Curses]

it all depends on the situation. 99.9% of the time, a popout = strikeout, no matter what. in many situations, a groundout with a man on first is better than a strikeout, because of the potential to get two outs.

 

i guess i didn't understand this statement. my argument would be the propensity of someone putting it in the air would come with a propensity to give up xbh's. pitching to contact, if you are a hard throwing, strikeout pitcher that doesn't get an overwhelming amount fo ground balls, like prior, pitching to contact is a bad idea.

[Careless]

Home runs. Way to many long balls. He's giving more home runs/inning than greg maddux. He's got a better BAA than in 03 but the long balls kill him. Hes just as hard to hit but when they hit em they are hitting it harder. Plus hes walking too many people. 3inn-1bb instead of 4-1 in 03.

That just says that the stuff is still there, but he's not as sharp with his location. Sometimes he's missing off the plate, but sometimes he's catching way too much of the zone.

 

Wouldn't that statement be true of most pitchers who's ERA is high?

look at my long post up there. batters have a MUCH lower batting average against prior than against other pitchers, but they hit more HRs off him than other pitchers. He's what, top 5 and bottom 5 in the 2 categories?

[biittner77]

Any pitcher has to hit his spots to be successful. Look at Farnsworth. Couldn't throw much hareder than he does but if it's down the middle he's going to get hit.

[CubfaninCA]

Aha found this thread. Kinda got buried under all the I hate Dusty/Neifi/Macias/Hendry threads. :o

 

What's wrong w/ this guy?

[abuck1220]

Aha found this thread. Kinda got buried under all the I hate Dusty/Neifi/Macias/Hendry threads. :o

 

What's wrong w/ this guy?

 

yeah, two dusty threads and one macias/neifi thread on the entire front page. keep fighting the man, though...you're a brave warrior.

[Geech]

What's wrong w/ this guy?

 

He does have me worried. I'm not nearly as confident as many others seem to be that this is something temporary.

[CubfaninCA]

What's wrong w/ this guy?

 

He does have me worried. I'm not nearly as confident as many others seem to be that this is something temporary.

 

I've been losing confidence per outing. I don't recall him dominating for quite some time now. I don't follow this team as closely as some.... Is his velocity down some this year?? I know he's not hitting his spots like he had been in the past.

 

I hate throwing this out there, but I'm a cynic so can't help it. I recall someone saying a few years ago that Prior was on steroids. Can someone assure me this isn't so. I haven't noticed a substantial weight loss.

[Crash]

What's wrong w/ this guy?

 

He does have me worried. I'm not nearly as confident as many others seem to be that this is something temporary.

 

I've been losing confidence per outing. I don't recall him dominating for quite some time now. I don't follow this team as closely as some.... Is his velocity down some this year?? I know he's not hitting his spots like he had been in the past.

 

I hate throwing this out there, but I'm a cynic so can't help it. I recall someone saying a few years ago that Prior was on steroids. Can someone assure me this isn't so. I haven't noticed a substantial weight loss.

 

Nothing wrong with Prior's stuff. He has the same velocity and movement. He does lead the entire majors in K/9's for starters at 10.15. He is also 7th in the majors in BAA at .227. His stuff is fine, he just seems to be be struggling with his control at times. Seeing as how there is such a difference in his stats pre/post the broken elbow I don't know if you can blame "steroids".

[CubfaninCA]

What's wrong w/ this guy?

 

He does have me worried. I'm not nearly as confident as many others seem to be that this is something temporary.

 

I've been losing confidence per outing. I don't recall him dominating for quite some time now. I don't follow this team as closely as some.... Is his velocity down some this year?? I know he's not hitting his spots like he had been in the past.

 

I hate throwing this out there, but I'm a cynic so can't help it. I recall someone saying a few years ago that Prior was on steroids. Can someone assure me this isn't so. I haven't noticed a substantial weight loss.

 

Nothing wrong with Prior's stuff. He has the same velocity and movement. He does lead the entire majors in K/9's for starters at 10.15. He is also 7th in the majors in BAA at .227. His stuff is fine, he just seems to be be struggling with his control at times. Seeing as how there is such a difference in his stats pre/post the broken elbow I don't know if you can blame "steroids".

 

So basically his mechanics have been out of whack since the injury. Hopefully this doesn't become a mental block. Most likely it won't. Hopefully not, cause him and Zambrano are the key's to this team.