Pirates, Cardinals and fights, oh my!

[PujolsPower]

one last thing. some Card fan called it a clean slide. put down the coolaid. highly debatable, and most likely a crock of hooey.

 

I was watching the game in question and the slide you were talking about wasn't even close to being a dirty slide. Castillo landed akwardly after jumping to avoid the incoming runner. It was a standard slide to break up a double play. Luna did not go wide of the bag or come in with his spikes up.

[jjgman21]

Castillo was spiked in the left leg by Hector Luna after making a relay throw to first base on a double play to end the fourth inning.

 

but I will concede...

 

"It was a clean play," said Pirates manager Lloyd McClendon. "Those things happen from time-to-time. I think [Castillo's] foot got caught on the front side of the bag."

 

which begs the question, if McClendon conceded that it was a clean play, why was Mr. and Mrs. Bushleague crying foul about retaliation when White threw a pitch up and in to Luna?

 

 

Mr. Bushleague is the master of playing dirty, then accusing the other side of dirty play. always crying 'retaliation' when he retaliates more than anybody.

[wolf stansson]

Mr. Bushleague is the master of playing dirty, then accusing the other side of dirty play. always crying 'retaliation' when he retaliates more than anybody.

Tony does complain in the press more than I like, but I would be interested to see if you have any actual evidence to prove he retaliates more than anybody. I understand that it is magnified to you because he is your hated rival, but how about trying to have an actual point to your posts instead of just making things up.

[jjgman21]

Mr. Bushleague is the master of playing dirty, then accusing the other side of dirty play. always crying 'retaliation' when he retaliates more than anybody.

Tony does complain in the press more than I like, but I would be interested to see if you have any actual evidence to prove he retaliates more than anybody. I understand that it is magnified to you because he is your hated rival, but how about trying to have an actual point to your posts instead of just making things up.

 

oh, that's right. I forgot all about the rule here that you can't write anything unless it can be independently verified with scientific evidence.

 

I'll create a program and enter all the boxscores to determine the timing of all HBP in Cardinal games over the past years compared to other teams and managers. I'll break into MLB headquarters to get all the umpire reports to determine how many times warnings have been issued to managers for beanballs. then I'll google "baseball retaliation" and read all newspaper accounts about alleged retaliation, and to complete my study, I will give LaRussa a lie detector about every HBP his pitchers have thrown in his managerial career.

 

 

how about this...from my observations, his team retaliates more than any other.

 

the point of this post is that your criticism is more twiticism. save it for your "you can't prove McGwire was on steroids" posts.

[jjgman21]

just for kicks I did a simple internet search for "cardinals warned both benches"

 

here's some games I found with blatant acts of retaliation by the Cardinals, this year alone.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=250409124 (beaning of Burrell for either his productive game, JRolls steal, or an earlier beaning)

 

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=250522107 (beaning of Berroa for either his productive game or the earlier beaning of Pujols + two beaning by Lima the day before

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=250607124 (beanball war with BoSox)

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=250613114 (Hillebrand beaned for having audacity to hit a HR)

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=250802124 (Carpenter beans Gonzalez for two earlier beanings by Willis -- to lead off the game)

 

that's at least five, and the beaning of Lawton in the 10th in the "you're stealing signs" game was in all probability a purpose beaning too.

 

in addition, the same search revealed nasty beanball wars between the Cubs, Pirates, Brewers and White Sox over the past few years as well.

 

the balls in your court wolf. find any team or manager that even comes close.

[reggiemiller rules]

This whole thread is dumb, beaning someone for realiation is part of baseball and there is nothing bush league about it. Its players policing the game the way it should be. In any of those instances were the players hit in the head. None that I can remember so they are doing it the right way. Every team does it so to point out one teams just shows that you have a bias towards the Cards which i have no problem with this is a cubs boards so I expect alot of people to. But to say that the Cards and Larussa are bush league for retaliating is ridiculous its part of the game and should be done. Plus how do you know all of those were on purpose. The marlins one Gonzalez was hit with an slow breaking ball in the lower back I believe. That is hardly a message pitch.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

This whole thread is dumb, beaning someone for realiation is part of baseball and there is nothing bush league about it. Its players policing the game the way it should be. In any of those instances were the players hit in the head. None that I can remember so they are doing it the right way. Every team does it so to point out one teams just shows that you have a bias towards the Cards which i have no problem with this is a cubs boards so I expect alot of people to. But to say that the Cards and Larussa are bush league for retaliating is ridiculous its part of the game and should be done. Plus how do you know all of those were on purpose. The marlins one Gonzalez was hit with an slow breaking ball in the lower back I believe. That is hardly a message pitch.

 

 

=D>

[jjgman21]

This whole thread is dumb, beaning someone for realiation is part of baseball and there is nothing bush league about it. Its players policing the game the way it should be. In any of those instances were the players hit in the head. None that I can remember so they are doing it the right way. Every team does it so to point out one teams just shows that you have a bias towards the Cards which i have no problem with this is a cubs boards so I expect alot of people to. But to say that the Cards and Larussa are bush league for retaliating is ridiculous its part of the game and should be done. Plus how do you know all of those were on purpose. The marlins one Gonzalez was hit with an slow breaking ball in the lower back I believe. That is hardly a message pitch.

 

to sit there and imply that LaRussa doesn't do it more than most is drinking the Cardinal coolaid. you want to talk about slow curveballs, let's talk about some of Wood's slow curves that have glanced off of various Cardinals, only to see a Cardinal pitcher bean a Cub later in the game or the next game.

 

not everybody does it, and even if they did it makes it no less bush. to be honest, I wish the Cubs retaliated more. I'm enraged that noone has drilled Carlos Lee in the ribs for the kick to Walker's knee that put him out for 6 weeks. noone has thrown at any Pirate after Mesa went hunting Hairston's head earlier in the season either.

 

it also is not the way the game should be. the way the game should be is you get knocked on your butt, you get up, dust yourself off, and take vengence with the stick, not the ball. if the pitch that knocked you on your butt hits you, then its retaliation time. no sooner, but that's not the way LaRussa plays it, and you know it.

 

LaRussa retaliates for many little things that have nothing to do with the intent of the opposition. the dividing line of bush is not whether the pitch is at someone's head. the only "right way" is when you have been wronged in some way by the opposition. LaRussa is bush because his team's retaliation comes when the opposition did nothing intentional. none of the above described acts by other teams warranted a beaning by a Cards pitcher. beanings are part of the game, beanball wars are not, and beanball wars are exactly what Mr. Bushleague keeps inciting.

 

an example. Pujols hits a homerun and admires it, as always. the next time up he's planted on his butt by some chin music. what's the proper response? the proper response is no response, but that's not the way LaRussa plays it, now is it.

[reggiemiller rules]

Pujols watchs his home runs no more the Ramirez does or Lee does with that little hop of his. Everybody watches their home runs it has become a part of the game.

The point about Wood, I dont remember a game where would hit a Cards player with a curveball and the Cards retaliated. I may be wrong and you may be right I just dont remember. Plus there might have been stuff going on from games before to.

 

Plus your sayin that Larussa does it more then any other coaches, but the games you pointed out half of them are even questionable on wither it was on purpose or not. Alot of the other ones he retaliated after his team had already been hit on purpose so he is not out of line for sticking up for his players. Also alot of the times the coaches dont even tell the pitchers to do it most veteran pitchers know when to do it and they do it on their own.

[gus_dog]

Do you also assume that if a girl gets raped, something must have happened to warrant it?

That's a little extreme.

 

I agree, that is a very poor analogy, and IMO, inappropriate.

 

 

After serving one game of their suspensions, the disciplinary committee is reviewing the punishments. I don't think Dunc deserved 4 games, but I didn't think it was that inappropriate of a punishment either.I want to clarify something. Dunc's 4 games aren't that out of line if the punishment was based on the fact that Duncan started running towards the Pirates dugout after the whole brawl looked like it was over. My bone of contention with gus_dog is that he seems to think that 4 games is light and that the punishment is simply based on "something that must have precipitated" the punch. gus_dog doesn't even seem to suggest what that something must be, but is merely assuming that because Duncan got punched, something must have happened to warrant it.

 

Yes, I believe something precipitated it. Please note that I also said the sucker-punch was bush.

 

Yes, I think that these MANAGEMENT-participants (especially Perry) need to be severly punished. If Duncan did anything other than try to stop any violence, yes, he should be suspended as well.

 

I did not say that Duncan started it, but that SOMETHING precipitated it? What that was I don't know. But yes, I believe that something precipitated the punch. Doesn't justify it, but it does explain it. I know what it says in the article(s), but I do not believe that everything makes it to the newspaper. There seems to me to be some bad blood between LaRussa/Duncan, and a number of other team's staff.

 

Now, I NEVER said it was all anybody's fault in particular, but most certainly, I believe that there is likely enough responsibility to go around to all parties involved.

 

I most certainly am biased. I am a Cub fan, and as such never claimed to be unbiased. However, I simply posed some questions about the situation.

[gus_dog]

This whole thread is dumb, beaning someone for realiation is part of baseball and there is nothing bush league about it. Its players policing the game the way it should be. In any of those instances were the players hit in the head. None that I can remember so they are doing it the right way. Every team does it so to point out one teams just shows that you have a bias towards the Cards which i have no problem with this is a cubs boards so I expect alot of people to. But to say that the Cards and Larussa are bush league for retaliating is ridiculous its part of the game and should be done. Plus how do you know all of those were on purpose. The marlins one Gonzalez was hit with an slow breaking ball in the lower back I believe. That is hardly a message pitch.

 

This whole post is dumb.

[vaball]

So tonight Brenly talked about how Maddux "has been known to" hit guys who are hitting him well. So does everyone have a problem with that?

 

I don't. There's nothing wrong with a pitcher trying to shake up a guy who's getting too comfortable in the box against him.

 

Personally I think fans get a little overly sensitive on this topic. Whenever one of their own gets hit they cry murder, even if it's obviously not intentional. And even if it is intentioanal, big deal, it's part of the game.

[vaball]

Duncan had his suspension reduced to 2 games by the way.

[UK1679666180]

So tonight Brenly talked about how Maddux "has been known to" hit guys who are hitting him well. So does everyone have a problem with that?

 

I don't. There's nothing wrong with a pitcher trying to shake up a guy who's getting too comfortable in the box against him.

 

Personally I think fans get a little overly sensitive on this topic. Whenever one of their own gets hit they cry murder, even if it's obviously not intentional. And even if it is intentioanal, big deal, it's part of the game.

 

Solid post, it happens all the time. It depends where a batter gets hit more than if he gets hit that should determine any form of punishment.

 

A 1B has been lucky against a good pitcher. He goes 2 for 2 this night, and the opposing pitcher gets a base hit. At 1B, the 1B says "God man, Hoot, you've got such good stuff I don't see how anybody can hit you". The pitcher didn't even look at him and just said you "A-hole" (without the reduction). Next time, the 1B gets to the plate mentions to the C "I'm not going to like to like this at bat am I?". Well, 1st pitch he got nailed in the rear.

 

The pitcher in the sequence was Gibson. That's fair almost 30 years ago and should be fair today by being retaliated on the field and not an ump, who ejects a player on the 1st high and tight pitch.

[gus_dog]

No problem here. In fact, use of the inside area -off the plate, was encouraged by my high school coach, but throwing anywhere above the shoulder (purposely, that is) was strictly prohibited.

 

UK, who was the batter in that scenario with Gibson?

[UK1679666180]

No problem here. In fact, use of the inside area -off the plate, was encouraged by my high school coach, but throwing anywhere above the shoulder (purposely, that is) was strictly prohibited.

 

UK, who was the batter in that scenario with Gibson?

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/fairlro01.shtml

[1wizard]

to sit there and imply that LaRussa doesn't do it more than most is drinking the Cardinal coolaid.

 

Maybe I am just drinking the Cardinal coolaid, but TLR had a meeting with his pitcher after he hit Mike Piazza in the head. The Mets did retailiate by hitting Eck in the thigh, and I do not think it was a bush move on the Mets part. Of course if they would have thrown at someone's head than that would be bush. Then LaRussa went over to talk to Piazza after the game about how the pitch was not on purpose. That is pure class on TLR's part. TLR stated that he does not believe that a MLB pitcher should hit a batter in the head. He believes that MLb pitchers should have good enough control to not miss in that area. I think Tony is a classier person than most fans realize.