Rolen regresses

[The Voice of Reason]

The Cards' rotation has been incredibly healthy for the last 2 years. At one point do you stop thinking that it's "luck", and wonder if the coaches know what they're doing?

 

More than likely, they will never stop believing in luck

 

 

Was it bad coaching by the Cubs that caused Prior to miss significant time after a line drive hit him in the elbow? Was it bad coaching by the Cardinals a few years ago when a lot of their pitchers were injured? I would argue in both cases, it was simply bad luck.

[XZero771679666304]

Carpenter is not long removed from reconstructive surgery and he broke down last season. When the Cards had the division all but cinched in June, and Carpenter has won a lot of blowout games and the Cards have a good bullpen, what is the point of allowing him to work so many innings?

 

There is none. The only thing that can come from it is negative for the team.

[K-Town]

The Cards' rotation has been incredibly healthy for the last 2 years. At one point do you stop thinking that it's "luck", and wonder if the coaches know what they're doing?

 

More than likely, they will never stop believing in luck

 

 

Was it bad coaching by the Cubs that caused Prior to miss significant time after a line drive hit him in the elbow? Was it bad coaching by the Cardinals a few years ago when a lot of their pitchers were injured? I would argue in both cases, it was simply bad luck.

 

4 or 5 starts isn't "significant time", in my opinion, especially considering how well Rusch did.

 

Every team has good luck and every team has bad luck. I'm not saying that luck isn't a factor. It's silly to think that one team is "luckier" for years and years, though. Those sorts of things tend to even out.

 

Anybody who thinks that the Cards have been "lucky" this year isn't paying attention. They've played the better part of the 2nd half without a former MVP (Walker), a perennial all-star and Gold Glove third baseman (Rolen), an outfielder (Sanders) who was on pace for 30 homers and 30 steals (something that's only happened 33 times in the NL in the last 50 years), and a guy who is probably the best young catcher in the NL (Molina). One of the best closers in baseball (Izzy) missed 2 weeks in April/May. One of their better middle relievers Cal Eldred (3.76 ERA last year, and 1.21 ERA this year) missed 2 months. One of the best centerfielders in baseball (Edmonds) missed over a week in June. Mike Lincoln, who looked unhittable at teams early last year, hasn't been healthy enough to play for almost 2 years.

 

Like I said, the rest of the league should consider THEMSELVES "lucky" that the Cards' starting rotation has been healthy all year, based on what we've seen from their 6th starter (Reyes).

[K-Town]

Carpenter is not long removed from reconstructive surgery and he broke down last season. When the Cards had the division all but cinched in June, and Carpenter has won a lot of blowout games and the Cards have a good bullpen, what is the point of allowing him to work so many innings?

 

There is none. The only thing that can come from it is negative for the team.

 

It's been almost 3 years since Carpenter's surgery. It's time to get over it.

 

The biceps problem last September/October was a nerve issue. It wasn't from his workload, and wasn't related to his surgery. It was a freakish thing, much like Brad Penny has suffered from.

 

Carpenter is 31s in Pitcher Abuse Points. He's NOT being abused this year. Arm injuries most often occur because a pitcher is abused (left in a game too long when he's stuggling, extremely high pitch counts, etc.). That hasn't been the case for Carpenter.

 

 

When was the last time that ANY starting pitcher was pitching well, but the team decided to rest him in the middle of August? Are the White Sox sitting their pitchers down? They've all but locked up their division.

 

Carpenter will get plenty of rest down the stretch (I've already explained that Reyes was called up last week for that very purpose). After September call-ups, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a 6-man rotation, with Wainwright and Reyes alternating starts, to give everyone else plenty of rest. We'll see.

[TruffleShuffle]

Anybody who thinks that the Cards have been "lucky" this year isn't paying attention. They've played the better part of the 2nd half without a former MVP (Walker), a perennial all-star and Gold Glove third baseman (Rolen), an outfielder (Sanders) who was on pace for 30 homers and 30 steals (something that's only happened 33 times in the NL in the last 50 years), and a guy who is probably the best young catcher in the NL (Molina). One of the best closers in baseball (Izzy) missed 2 weeks in April/May. One of their better middle relievers Cal Eldred (3.76 ERA last year, and 1.21 ERA this year) missed 2 months. One of the best centerfielders in baseball (Edmonds) missed over a week in June. Mike Lincoln, who looked unhittable at teams early last year, hasn't been healthy enough to play for almost 2 years.

 

I checked out Mike Lincoln's numbers last year, and they really weren't anything to get excited about. He was OK with the Pirates, but really, any disappointment about his injury has been more than made up for with Al Reyes' extremely unexpected performance.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that the Cardinals have been lucky in terms of injuries this year. The lucky part is that guys like Abraham Nunez, Chris Carpenter, and Julian Tavarez (among other) have been much better than anybody could have expected when they signed with the Cards. Anyone who thought Nunez could be this good in 2005 is either an optimistic family member or completely insane.

[treebird]

The reconstructive surgery isn't a factor anymore. Most pitchers eventually end up being stronger after surgery than they were before.

 

This thread is a joke, so I'm not going to mess with it.

 

However, I did want to point out that this statement is completely untrue. Pitchers do NOT come back stronger. Sometimes they come back throwing harder than they did immediately before their surgery, but this is due to the fact that these injuries don't happen overnight. They get worse and worse over time, and by the time they actually have to have the surgery, they're down from where they once were already.

[XZero771679666304]

Carpenter is not long removed from reconstructive surgery and he broke down last season. When the Cards had the division all but cinched in June, and Carpenter has won a lot of blowout games and the Cards have a good bullpen, what is the point of allowing him to work so many innings?

 

There is none. The only thing that can come from it is negative for the team.

 

It's been almost 3 years since Carpenter's surgery. It's time to get over it.

 

The biceps problem last September/October was a nerve issue. It wasn't from his workload, and wasn't related to his surgery. It was a freakish thing, much like Brad Penny has suffered from.

 

Carpenter is 31s in Pitcher Abuse Points. He's NOT being abused this year. Arm injuries most often occur because a pitcher is abused (left in a game too long when he's stuggling, extremely high pitch counts, etc.). That hasn't been the case for Carpenter.

 

 

When was the last time that ANY starting pitcher was pitching well, but the team decided to rest him in the middle of August? Are the White Sox sitting their pitchers down? They've all but locked up their division.

 

Carpenter will get plenty of rest down the stretch (I've already explained that Reyes was called up last week for that very purpose). After September call-ups, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a 6-man rotation, with Wainwright and Reyes alternating starts, to give everyone else plenty of rest. We'll see.

 

Carpenter has one full season in his 8+ years in the bigs. For one reason or another, he has NEVER been consistently healthy. By comparison, Kerry Wood is a rock. With someone who has a long history of ill health, discretion is always the better part of valor. There is no magic Cardinal pill that will ensure Carp's health.

[indifferent]

Anybody who thinks that the Cards have been "lucky" this year isn't paying attention. They've played the better part of the 2nd half without a former MVP (Walker), a perennial all-star and Gold Glove third baseman (Rolen), an outfielder (Sanders) who was on pace for 30 homers and 30 steals (something that's only happened 33 times in the NL in the last 50 years), and a guy who is probably the best young catcher in the NL (Molina). One of the best closers in baseball (Izzy) missed 2 weeks in April/May. One of their better middle relievers Cal Eldred (3.76 ERA last year, and 1.21 ERA this year) missed 2 months. One of the best centerfielders in baseball (Edmonds) missed over a week in June. Mike Lincoln, who looked unhittable at teams early last year, hasn't been healthy enough to play for almost 2 years.

 

I checked out Mike Lincoln's numbers last year, and they really weren't anything to get excited about. He was OK with the Pirates, but really, any disappointment about his injury has been more than made up for with Al Reyes' extremely unexpected performance.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that the Cardinals have been lucky in terms of injuries this year. The lucky part is that guys like Abraham Nunez, Chris Carpenter, and Julian Tavarez (among other) have been much better than anybody could have expected when they signed with the Cards. Anyone who thought Nunez could be this good in 2005 is either an optimistic family member or completely insane.

 

Truffle, I agree with you on expectations for Nunez, but humor me here. Given that he's put up these numbers with regular playing time all year, would you entertain bringing him in as your starting 2nd baseman next year? It's been brought up on our board if we can't resign Grudz.

 

Or would that be a colossal Womackesque mistake? I'm a little up in the air on whether it would be more risky to have Nunez, a severe fluke over his career numbers this year, or to sign a 35 yr. old Grudz with an injury history to a multiple year contract if he demands it.

[K-Town]

Anybody who thinks that the Cards have been "lucky" this year isn't paying attention. They've played the better part of the 2nd half without a former MVP (Walker), a perennial all-star and Gold Glove third baseman (Rolen), an outfielder (Sanders) who was on pace for 30 homers and 30 steals (something that's only happened 33 times in the NL in the last 50 years), and a guy who is probably the best young catcher in the NL (Molina). One of the best closers in baseball (Izzy) missed 2 weeks in April/May. One of their better middle relievers Cal Eldred (3.76 ERA last year, and 1.21 ERA this year) missed 2 months. One of the best centerfielders in baseball (Edmonds) missed over a week in June. Mike Lincoln, who looked unhittable at teams early last year, hasn't been healthy enough to play for almost 2 years.

 

I checked out Mike Lincoln's numbers last year, and they really weren't anything to get excited about. He was OK with the Pirates, but really, any disappointment about his injury has been more than made up for with Al Reyes' extremely unexpected performance.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that the Cardinals have been lucky in terms of injuries this year. The lucky part is that guys like Abraham Nunez, Chris Carpenter, and Julian Tavarez (among other) have been much better than anybody could have expected when they signed with the Cards. Anyone who thought Nunez could be this good in 2005 is either an optimistic family member or completely insane.

 

Then call Jim Leyland insane, because as a scout for the Cardinals who had seen alot of Pirate games, he BEGGED them to sign Nunez.

 

Reyes had some VERY good years in the minor leagues (3.59 ERA, and 1.28 WHIP spready out over 15 years), but was never given a chance with a Major League club. Could it be that a little big-league coaching has pushed him over the top?

 

Chris Carpenter has had a TON of potential since the day he was drafted in the first round back in '94. The Cards didn't just get lucky with him. They made an investment (when nobody else was willing to) in a kid with a ton of potential, who was just coming off of surgery, and it's paying off for them now. It's not like they threw money at a journeyman, and he turned into gold.

 

Duncan is a miracle-worker at times, I won't deny that. But I think it's a little unfair to call it all dumb luck.

[XZero771679666304]

Anybody who thinks that the Cards have been "lucky" this year isn't paying attention. They've played the better part of the 2nd half without a former MVP (Walker), a perennial all-star and Gold Glove third baseman (Rolen), an outfielder (Sanders) who was on pace for 30 homers and 30 steals (something that's only happened 33 times in the NL in the last 50 years), and a guy who is probably the best young catcher in the NL (Molina). One of the best closers in baseball (Izzy) missed 2 weeks in April/May. One of their better middle relievers Cal Eldred (3.76 ERA last year, and 1.21 ERA this year) missed 2 months. One of the best centerfielders in baseball (Edmonds) missed over a week in June. Mike Lincoln, who looked unhittable at teams early last year, hasn't been healthy enough to play for almost 2 years.

 

I checked out Mike Lincoln's numbers last year, and they really weren't anything to get excited about. He was OK with the Pirates, but really, any disappointment about his injury has been more than made up for with Al Reyes' extremely unexpected performance.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that the Cardinals have been lucky in terms of injuries this year. The lucky part is that guys like Abraham Nunez, Chris Carpenter, and Julian Tavarez (among other) have been much better than anybody could have expected when they signed with the Cards. Anyone who thought Nunez could be this good in 2005 is either an optimistic family member or completely insane.

 

Then call Jim Leyland insane, because as a scout for the Cardinals who had seen alot of Pirate games, he BEGGED them to sign Nunez.

 

Reyes had some VERY good years in the minor leagues (3.59 ERA, and 1.28 WHIP spready out over 15 years), but was never given a chance with a Major League club. Could it be that a little big-league coaching has pushed him over the top?

 

Chris Carpenter has had a TON of potential since the day he was drafted in the first round back in '94. The Cards didn't just get lucky with him. They made an investment (when nobody else was willing to) in a kid with a ton of potential, who was just coming off of surgery, and it's paying off for them now. It's not like they threw money at a journeyman, and he turned into gold.

 

Duncan is a miracle-worker at times, I won't deny that. But I think it's a little unfair to call it all dumb luck.

 

The only point I'll argue here is Reyes. Do you know how many minor league pitchers put up better numbers than that, and never even make to the bigs? Hundreds.

[K-Town]

The reconstructive surgery isn't a factor anymore. Most pitchers eventually end up being stronger after surgery than they were before.

 

This thread is a joke, so I'm not going to mess with it.

 

However, I did want to point out that this statement is completely untrue. Pitchers do NOT come back stronger. Sometimes they come back throwing harder than they did immediately before their surgery, but this is due to the fact that these injuries don't happen overnight. They get worse and worse over time, and by the time they actually have to have the surgery, they're down from where they once were already.

 

Isn't just another way of saying what I said?

[OldHappyCubFan]

Thats one down for the Cards postseason run.

 

 

Rolen won't be the only starter on the DL come playoff time.

[K-Town]

Carpenter has one full season in his 8+ years in the bigs. For one reason or another, he has NEVER been consistently healthy. By comparison, Kerry Wood is a rock. With someone who has a long history of ill health, discretion is always the better part of valor. There is no magic Cardinal pill that will ensure Carp's health.

 

So what do you suggest? You think the Cards should shut down a perfectly healthy pitcher for the rest of the season?

 

The Cards are making a point to give ALL of their starters an extra day off here and there (as I've already explained). After September call-ups, they'll probably get even MORE rest.

 

As for the Kerry Wood comparison, I think that most experts agree that his mechanics are horrible, and that's why he's hurt all the time. To my knowledge, Carpenter's mechanics are very good, so I'm not sure that I'd be overly worried.

 

Furthermore, how do you come up with "8+ years"?

 

He was brought up in '97 (for 1/2 year)

 

'98

'99

'00

'01

'02

'03

'04

 

That's 7 years.

 

He went down midway through '02, and missed all of '03.

 

Other than that, he's pitched 150 innings or more every single year. Wood has pitched 150 innings only 4 times in his career.

Edited August 18, 2005 by K-Town

[XZero771679666304]

The reconstructive surgery isn't a factor anymore. Most pitchers eventually end up being stronger after surgery than they were before.

 

This thread is a joke, so I'm not going to mess with it.

 

However, I did want to point out that this statement is completely untrue. Pitchers do NOT come back stronger. Sometimes they come back throwing harder than they did immediately before their surgery, but this is due to the fact that these injuries don't happen overnight. They get worse and worse over time, and by the time they actually have to have the surgery, they're down from where they once were already.

 

Isn't just another way of saying what I said?

 

Not really. He was saying that a pitcher comes back stronger than he was immediately before his injury, but not as good or better than their previous top form. If a pitcher is worn down by injury at the end of a season, has surgery, and comes back stronger, does that mean he is the strongest he has ever been? No, the injury has permenantly decreased his ability.

 

Since Carpenter has always been fragile, saying he is stonger than immediately before his injury says very little.

[jjgman21]

 

Truffle, I agree with you on expectations for Nunez, but humor me here. Given that he's put up these numbers with regular playing time all year, would you entertain bringing him in as your starting 2nd baseman next year? It's been brought up on our board if we can't resign Grudz.

 

Or would that be a colossal Womackesque mistake? I'm a little up in the air on whether it would be more risky to have Nunez, a severe fluke over his career numbers this year, or to sign a 35 yr. old Grudz with an injury history to a multiple year contract if he demands it.

 

I'm just not sure what you mean by Womackesque mistake. the Cards brought him in for a year, not surprisingly he had a career year, and the Cards let him go. are you talking about the Yankees when you refer to him as a mistake?

[jjgman21]

Carpenter has one full season in his 8+ years in the bigs. For one reason or another, he has NEVER been consistently healthy. By comparison, Kerry Wood is a rock. With someone who has a long history of ill health, discretion is always the better part of valor. There is no magic Cardinal pill that will ensure Carp's health.

 

So what do you suggest? You think the Cards should shut down a perfectly healthy pitcher for the rest of the season?

 

The Cards are making a point to give ALL of their starters an extra day off here and there (as I've already explained). After September call-ups, they'll probably get even MORE rest.

 

As for the Kerry Wood comparison, I think that most experts agree that his mechanics are horrible, and that's why he's hurt all the time. To my knowledge, Carpenter's mechanics are very good, so I'm not sure that I'd be overly worried.

 

the time for suggestion has long since passed, and that's the point. LaRussa blew the chance to save his arm for the stretch run. I don't see how the starters have gotten extra days rest when only one start has been made from someone not on the five man. don't forget too that they went with a four man for the first couple weeks of the season. I personally don't think going to a six man rotation is the greatest idea ever either.

 

as for the Kerry Wood comparison, assuming what you say is true, shouldn't you be concerned that someone with "very good" mechanics seems to get injured all the time, especially since those are arm injuries and not fluke injuries (ala Prior). Player A - bad mechanics, injury history, injury cause can be corrected; Player B - very good mechanics, injury history, what can be done to predict and prevent injuries?

[indifferent]

 

Truffle, I agree with you on expectations for Nunez, but humor me here. Given that he's put up these numbers with regular playing time all year, would you entertain bringing him in as your starting 2nd baseman next year? It's been brought up on our board if we can't resign Grudz.

 

Or would that be a colossal Womackesque mistake? I'm a little up in the air on whether it would be more risky to have Nunez, a severe fluke over his career numbers this year, or to sign a 35 yr. old Grudz with an injury history to a multiple year contract if he demands it.

 

I'm just not sure what you mean by Womackesque mistake. the Cards brought him in for a year, not surprisingly he had a career year, and the Cards let him go. are you talking about the Yankees when you refer to him as a mistake?

 

Yes, in comparing the mistake the Yankees made putting stock into his fluke performance of one year.

[XZero771679666304]

 

So what do you suggest? You think the Cards should shut down a perfectly healthy pitcher for the rest of the season?

 

 

I suggest Tony start pulling Carp after 6 innings from here on out, unless the game is in doubt, and regardless of how Chris feels about it. I would rest him for at least two starts in Sept, as you say will be done. I would also do this for Morris, who looks like crap lately. With as big a lead as you have, both in the division and for home field, and with the Astros leveling off, I can't think of one good reason to keep going full bore, even in August.

[K-Town]

The reconstructive surgery isn't a factor anymore. Most pitchers eventually end up being stronger after surgery than they were before.

 

This thread is a joke, so I'm not going to mess with it.

 

However, I did want to point out that this statement is completely untrue. Pitchers do NOT come back stronger. Sometimes they come back throwing harder than they did immediately before their surgery, but this is due to the fact that these injuries don't happen overnight. They get worse and worse over time, and by the time they actually have to have the surgery, they're down from where they once were already.

 

Isn't just another way of saying what I said?

 

Not really. He was saying that a pitcher comes back stronger than he was immediately before his injury, but not as good or better than their previous top form. If a pitcher is worn down by injury at the end of a season, has surgery, and comes back stronger, does that mean he is the strongest he has ever been? No, the injury has permenantly decreased his ability.

 

Since Carpenter has always been fragile, saying he is stonger than immediately before his injury says very little.

 

The original point was that you don't worry about surgery repurcussions 3 years after the surgery. Do you?

[K-Town]

Carpenter has one full season in his 8+ years in the bigs. For one reason or another, he has NEVER been consistently healthy. By comparison, Kerry Wood is a rock. With someone who has a long history of ill health, discretion is always the better part of valor. There is no magic Cardinal pill that will ensure Carp's health.

 

So what do you suggest? You think the Cards should shut down a perfectly healthy pitcher for the rest of the season?

 

The Cards are making a point to give ALL of their starters an extra day off here and there (as I've already explained). After September call-ups, they'll probably get even MORE rest.

 

As for the Kerry Wood comparison, I think that most experts agree that his mechanics are horrible, and that's why he's hurt all the time. To my knowledge, Carpenter's mechanics are very good, so I'm not sure that I'd be overly worried.

 

the time for suggestion has long since passed, and that's the point. LaRussa blew the chance to save his arm for the stretch run. I don't see how the starters have gotten extra days rest when only one start has been made from someone not on the five man. don't forget too that they went with a four man for the first couple weeks of the season. I personally don't think going to a six man rotation is the greatest idea ever either.

 

as for the Kerry Wood comparison, assuming what you say is true, shouldn't you be concerned that someone with "very good" mechanics seems to get injured all the time, especially since those are arm injuries and not fluke injuries (ala Prior). Player A - bad mechanics, injury history, injury cause can be corrected; Player B - very good mechanics, injury history, what can be done to predict and prevent injuries?

 

He doesn't get injured "all the time". He missed part of 2002 and all of 2003 because of surgery. Other than that, he's pitched over 150 innings every full year of his career. He had a fluky nerve problem last September, but it had nothing to do with his workload. He's no more of an injury risk than anybody else.

 

Furthermore, how do you come up with "8+ years"?

 

He was brought up in '97 (for 1/2 year)

 

'98

'99

'00

'01

'02

'03

'04

 

That's 7 years.

 

He went down midway through '02, and missed all of '03.

 

Other than that, he's pitched 150 innings or more every single year. Wood has pitched 150 innings only 4 times in his career.

[XZero771679666304]

The reconstructive surgery isn't a factor anymore. Most pitchers eventually end up being stronger after surgery than they were before.

 

This thread is a joke, so I'm not going to mess with it.

 

However, I did want to point out that this statement is completely untrue. Pitchers do NOT come back stronger. Sometimes they come back throwing harder than they did immediately before their surgery, but this is due to the fact that these injuries don't happen overnight. They get worse and worse over time, and by the time they actually have to have the surgery, they're down from where they once were already.

 

Isn't just another way of saying what I said?

 

Not really. He was saying that a pitcher comes back stronger than he was immediately before his injury, but not as good or better than their previous top form. If a pitcher is worn down by injury at the end of a season, has surgery, and comes back stronger, does that mean he is the strongest he has ever been? No, the injury has permenantly decreased his ability.

 

Since Carpenter has always been fragile, saying he is stonger than immediately before his injury says very little.

 

The original point was that you don't worry about surgery repurcussions 3 years after the surgery. Do you?

 

Yes. I still worry about Kerry's elbow, and he is 6 years removed. Having 2 reconstructive surgeries is not unheard of. Scott Williamson can attest to that. You should always give a little extra consideration to a player who has had major surgery in the past if you can afford to, and the Cardinals can.

[K-Town]

 

So what do you suggest? You think the Cards should shut down a perfectly healthy pitcher for the rest of the season?

 

 

I suggest Tony start pulling Carp after 6 innings from here on out, unless the game is in doubt, and regardless of how Chris feels about it. I would rest him for at least two starts in Sept, as you say will be done. I would also do this for Morris, who looks like crap lately. With as big a lead as you have, both in the division and for home field, and with the Astros leveling off, I can't think of one good reason to keep going full bore, even in August.

 

Why 6 innings? Are innings more important than pitch counts?

[K-Town]

This is almost laughable to me. The Cards haven't had a starting pitcher miss a start all year. Last year, they had a grand total of 8 starts missed. Furthermore, the Cards have the best pitching staff in baseball this year. They had the best pitching staff in baseball last year. The starter waiting for a chance to pitch (Reyes) maybe better than anybody currently on the staff.

 

Yet Larussa is somehow abusing his pitching staff.

 

Unbelievable.

 

Maybe, just MAYBE he's using them exactly the way they should be used!

[indifferent]

 

So what do you suggest? You think the Cards should shut down a perfectly healthy pitcher for the rest of the season?

 

 

I suggest Tony start pulling Carp after 6 innings from here on out, unless the game is in doubt, and regardless of how Chris feels about it. I would rest him for at least two starts in Sept, as you say will be done. I would also do this for Morris, who looks like crap lately. With as big a lead as you have, both in the division and for home field, and with the Astros leveling off, I can't think of one good reason to keep going full bore, even in August.

 

Why 6 innings? Are innings more important than pitch counts?

 

Why so literal? I agree with what xzero's saying, we need to back off the pedal with Carp. If it's a blow out game, take Carp out. Even if it's not, I also agree we have nothing to gain and everything to lose. He's not a show pony, he's a key component to a deep playoff run.

[wolf stansson]

Why are injuries such a touchy subject? I think it's fairly obvious that the Cardinals rotation has been blessed with two amazingly healthy years outside of Carp's nerve damage. I also think it's obvious that the Cub's rotation has not been as lucky. They lost two of the top 10 starters in baseball before the season started.

 

MEMO TO CARDINALS FANS:

 

Stop trying to act like missionaries for the Cardinals plz. It's fine to argue your point if you believe it, but it seems like a few of you are over here to convince Cub nation that the Cardinals organization is some kind of superior being. The fact is, they are getting lucky with a lot of their players. This isn't saying these players should suck, it's just saying they are overachieving from their past performances. Who is to say they won't keep it up? Who is to say they won't all regress? No one. I think most of you understand this, but still get offended when the Cubs fans insinuate that they should and will suck once again. Why shouldn't they think that? They have just as much proof for their points as we do for ours.

 

Just stop trying to make people give the Cardinals organization any credit. Their performance may warrant it, but if a poster here doesn't want to acknowledge it, that's their right and privelege as a Cub fan.