The Paradox that is Aramis Ramirez

[cjbucks]

Voice,

 

Sorry if I'm coming across a bit harsh, but this subject keeps coming up and it frustrates me. He's playing through pain, which is something that should be appreciated, and not nitpicked when he makes a mistake or isn't running as hard as he normally would.

 

Hope I didn't ruffle your feathers too much. :D

 

No big deal US. I've been married 15 years and am very used to getting nitpicked (and nagged) :)

 

I honestly think Ramirez could be the next Pujols if he adopted some of Prince Albert's work habits. Maybe I am old fashioned, but I think a lot of ARam's nagging injuries could be avoided with better diet, conditioning and training. One would think with the money the Cubs are paying him, he could afford a personal trainer. With Leyland as manager next year (wishful thinking), any POSSIBLE lack of hustle would not be tolerated.

 

If you don't hustle for Leyland does he make you sit in the dugout and smoke cigs with him :?: :lol:

 

Yes, but when the smoke finally clears he let's you look at his World Series ring.

 

I'm all about Leyland - I just remember that they used to show him sitting in the dugout smoking like a chimney. I doubt you can even do that anymore and if you can they would never show it on TV.

[USSoccer]

Voice,

 

Sorry if I'm coming across a bit harsh, but this subject keeps coming up and it frustrates me. He's playing through pain, which is something that should be appreciated, and not nitpicked when he makes a mistake or isn't running as hard as he normally would.

 

Hope I didn't ruffle your feathers too much. :D

 

No big deal US. I've been married 15 years and am very used to getting nitpicked (and nagged) :)

 

I honestly think Ramirez could be the next Pujols if he adopted some of Prince Albert's work habits. Maybe I am old fashioned, but I think a lot of ARam's nagging injuries could be avoided with better diet, conditioning and training. One would think with the money the Cubs are paying him, he could afford a personal trainer. With Leyland as manager next year (wishful thinking), any POSSIBLE lack of hustle would not be tolerated.

 

I agree that ARam would improve as a player with better conditioning, but considering how good he already is, and the other, glaring flaws and such on our team, ARam is probably one of the last, if not the last player I worry about as far as living up to expectations or producing.

 

I would love it if he adopted a training regimen similar to what soccer players do to reduce the risk of leg injuries.

[Exile on Waveland]

I hope the people who jump on Aramis for not hustling while playing hurt aren't the same ones who jump on Wood for being "unwilling" to pitch through pain.

 

This is extremely unfair.

 

Ramirez is hurt now, so he can't run well. Wood's had arm problems, so he hasn't always been able to pitch. Those things are true.

 

However, when healthy, Wood goes all-out all the time. Ramirez? Maybe it's just me, but I seem to remember plenty of times where he didn't bother running to first after a ground-out or when he was slow getting out of the box because he was admiring his hit (On that, didn't he get thrown out at second this year in St. Louis on what should have been a sure double because he was watching his shot?).

 

Ramirez is one of my favorite Cubs. He's been a god-send at third. I hesitated to post in this thread because a) I didn't start posting here to bash players and b) I didn't want the reputation of some drunken, off-the-cuff talk radio fan. Thinking Wood should pitch through pain is pretty ridiculous, IMO. But expecting a player (when healthy, mind you) to run hard all the time is not -- and Ramirez doesn't always do so.

[Cubzfan64]

It would be VERY uncharacteristic of the Cubs to consider trading Ramirez in the offseason, but if I were Hendry I would seriously consider seeing what kind of offers you could get.

 

The guy has had 2 excellent offensive seasons, but as a "home team fan," you get to watch him play many more times than opposing teams do and I think Cub fans overrate Ramirez imho. Yes he may be hurting and that could have alot to do with him not running hard etc..., but he's likely at his high mark right now in trade value at a prime position and he since he came over with a "non hustling, poor work ethic" baggage and really has not done a lot to dismiss those theories, I don't have any problem with shopping him for the right deal.

 

On the other hand, you can't fill every position with 5 tool players who can do everything great - Ramirez gives you the offense you want from 3B, but doesn't give you some of the other things - as long as Lee is at 1B, he'll veil Aramis' throwing problems from 3B.

 

All in all, I don't think Ramirez is a problem, but I don't think he's anything all that outstanding either. Could he be? Absolutely - give him Pete Rose's attitude on the field and get him into a stretching/flexibility regimen in the offseason and he could become one of the best at 3B, but that's up to him I guess.

[treebird]

I hope the people who jump on Aramis for not hustling while playing hurt aren't the same ones who jump on Wood for being "unwilling" to pitch through pain.

 

This is extremely unfair.

 

Ramirez is hurt now, so he can't run well. Wood's had arm problems, so he hasn't always been able to pitch. Those things are true.

 

However, when healthy, Wood goes all-out all the time. Ramirez? Maybe it's just me, but I seem to remember plenty of times where he didn't bother running to first after a ground-out or when he was slow getting out of the box because he was admiring his hit (On that, didn't he get thrown out at second this year in St. Louis on what should have been a sure double because he was watching his shot?).

 

Ramirez is one of my favorite Cubs. He's been a god-send at third. I hesitated to post in this thread because a) I didn't start posting here to bash players and b) I didn't want the reputation of some drunken, off-the-cuff talk radio fan. Thinking Wood should pitch through pain is pretty ridiculous, IMO. But expecting a player (when healthy, mind you) to run hard all the time is not -- and Ramirez doesn't always do so.

 

When's the last time Ramirez was fully healthy?

 

 

And please explain how you can be sure.

[Exile on Waveland]

Ramirez is something outstanding.

 

He's 10th in the NL in OPS (.932), seventh in slugging (.571), 11th in batting average (.304), sixth in RBI (86), sixth in home runs (29), 15th in doubles (28 ) and 20th in runs (67).

 

Not sure what those numbers are, if not outstanding.

Edited August 15, 2005 by Exile on Waveland

[Exile on Waveland]

I hope the people who jump on Aramis for not hustling while playing hurt aren't the same ones who jump on Wood for being "unwilling" to pitch through pain.

 

This is extremely unfair.

 

Ramirez is hurt now, so he can't run well. Wood's had arm problems, so he hasn't always been able to pitch. Those things are true.

 

However, when healthy, Wood goes all-out all the time. Ramirez? Maybe it's just me, but I seem to remember plenty of times where he didn't bother running to first after a ground-out or when he was slow getting out of the box because he was admiring his hit (On that, didn't he get thrown out at second this year in St. Louis on what should have been a sure double because he was watching his shot?).

 

Ramirez is one of my favorite Cubs. He's been a god-send at third. I hesitated to post in this thread because a) I didn't start posting here to bash players and b) I didn't want the reputation of some drunken, off-the-cuff talk radio fan. Thinking Wood should pitch through pain is pretty ridiculous, IMO. But expecting a player (when healthy, mind you) to run hard all the time is not -- and Ramirez doesn't always do so.

 

When's the last time Ramirez was fully healthy?

 

 

And please explain how you can be sure.

 

Obviously, I can't be sure. Maybe he has been playing injured every single time he's failed to run hard. I don't know, I couldn't.

 

I have seen him run hard, quite a few times, actually. But I've also seen him not run hard -- and here I don't mean just in the last few weeks/months. If we've seen him run hard, we know he has been capable of it at some point in his career, so is it logical to assume every single time he hasn't run hard that he was injured? Again, I can't answer that with certainty, but it would seem unlikely. Surely you would agree that he's failed to go all-out even before this most recent injury (which you seem to imply by your question).

 

 

Regardless, this is why I hesitated to post in this thread. I have so little desire for an argument in which I'm on the side of complaining about a Cub. I don't want that -- heck, I just stood up for Ramirez when he was called not "outstanding." In this situation, however, it seemed like respected, long-time posters were picking on a relative new-comer for saying something that has some merit.

[Satch80]

Not here to argue about Aram. Just stating the obvious.

 

1. He's a great offensive force

 

2. He is often injured.

 

3. He came over from Pittsburg with rumblings of not hustling and poor defense. At times, we have seen the same things here.

 

4.I think most agree that mental errors are due to a lack of focus and concentration. Aram has made some mental errors.

 

5. His body looks soft, he even has a slight double chin. Maybe he doesn't work/train much in the off season.

 

6. He has the ability to be one of the best 3B of all time.

[The Voice of Reason]

Exile on Waveland wrote:

 

 

In this situation, however, it seemed like respected, long-time posters were picking on a relative new-comer for saying something that has some merit.

 

Don't worry about it EOW, I'm starting to get used to it (and admittedly a fair share of it has been deserved) but I am thinking about changing by screen name to "Lightening Rod." :?

[USSoccer]

Exile on Waveland wrote:

 

 

In this situation, however, it seemed like respected, long-time posters were picking on a relative new-comer for saying something that has some merit.

 

Don't worry about it EOW, I'm starting to get used to it (and admittedly a fair share of it has been deserved) but I am thinking about changing by screen name to "Lightening Rod." :?

 

FWIW, Exile, i didn't look at his post count before responding. I never look at post counts before responding. The accusations of older tenured posters ripping newer posters simply for being new are getting old, are completely unfounded, and don't have a place on this forum.

 

 

The fact is is that I made it very obvious that I wasn't trying to be too hard on the thread's author in my responses. Tree didn't say anything very harsh either, so I don't get the point of putting that in here.

[scs_paradise]

Exile on Waveland wrote:

 

 

In this situation, however, it seemed like respected, long-time posters were picking on a relative new-comer for saying something that has some merit.

 

Don't worry about it EOW, I'm starting to get used to it (and admittedly a fair share of it has been deserved) but I am thinking about changing by screen name to "Lightening Rod." :?

 

FWIW, Exile, i didn't look at his post count before responding. I never look at post counts before responding. The accusations of older tenured posters ripping newer posters simply for being new are getting old, are completely unfounded, and don't have a place on this forum.

 

 

The fact is is that I made it very obvious that I wasn't trying to be too hard on the thread's author in my responses. Tree didn't say anything very harsh either, so I don't get the point of putting that in here.

 

I'm not sure they are unfounded, and have no place...it may be unintentional, in fact I think its just new posters bring new ideas and are less invested in the same topics that the posters on this board have been talking about for months and its just human nature for people to form clique's based on common philosophies and familiarity. I've noticed it from time to time, so I wouldn't admonish him for pointing out that this is what he thought was happening and posting the way he did...

 

BTW I'm not saying it was done in this case, I don't, I just think new posters might be just as frustrated as the more experienced posters because I have seen it happen in my opinion

[Exile on Waveland]

Exile on Waveland wrote:

 

 

In this situation, however, it seemed like respected, long-time posters were picking on a relative new-comer for saying something that has some merit.

 

Don't worry about it EOW, I'm starting to get used to it (and admittedly a fair share of it has been deserved) but I am thinking about changing by screen name to "Lightening Rod." :?

 

FWIW, Exile, i didn't look at his post count before responding. I never look at post counts before responding. The accusations of older tenured posters ripping newer posters simply for being new are getting old, are completely unfounded, and don't have a place on this forum.

 

 

The fact is is that I made it very obvious that I wasn't trying to be too hard on the thread's author in my responses. Tree didn't say anything very harsh either, so I don't get the point of putting that in here.

 

Actually, I did a poor job stating what I meant. I was not my intention to insinuate you thought less of anyone because of post count. I probably owe you an apology on that. I'm sorry. I don't believe there is any kind of hazing at this site. Everyone I've talked to here has been very welcoming, and I've enjoyed posting (and reading here the two previous years).

 

I've always enjoyed Tree's posts here. In fact, Tree's style of posting -- baseball acumen with humor -- is part of the reason I decided to post here. In this case, though, I did find Tree to be a little distrusting towards a new poster. I think Tree assumed I'd be a certain way, his "And please explain how you can be sure." seemed pointedly condescending to me -- that as a new poster, I was just spouting off opinions that I had no intention of supporting. This is partially why I was reluctant to post here -- the whole "Aramis is lazy" thing is strikingly similar to things you'd see on the old ESPN/cubs.com message boards like "Wood isn't tough," "Sosa's a prima-donna," "Dunn stinks in the clutch," etc, etc. It's dangerous territory, especially for a newcomer -- and that's basically what I meant to say.

[Warpticon]

The only cases in which it appears to me that "long-time respecteds" tend to go harder on newcomers is when the newcomers in question initiate an argument that has been made numerous times on this forum. In those cases, it's not the newness that generates the hostility; it's the oldness.

[Exile on Waveland]

The only cases in which it appears to me that "long-time respecteds" tend to go harder on newcomers is when the newcomers in question initiate an argument that has been made numerous times on this forum. In those cases, it's not the newness that generates the hostility; it's the oldness.

 

I agree, I don't think this happens. Also, I was not trying to be derogatory by saying "long-time, respected posters." That was meant to be a compliment -- I've lurked here for a long time, and enjoy/respect certain posters quite a bit (problem being, no one could know that but me). I never meant to brand posters by any other title but "quality."

 

Anyway, I shouldn't have said anything of the kind. I feel bad that I may have offended anyone, while I myself am certainly not offended in any way -- I've earned no respect at this board nor a right to be offended. I wish I hadn't said anything, because in no way did I want to come to this board and get in some irrelevant argument. Too late now, I guess -- especially as I perpetuate it with this post.

[treebird]

I've always enjoyed Tree's posts here. In fact, Tree's style of posting -- baseball acumen with humor -- is part of the reason I decided to post here. In this case, though, I did find Tree to be a little distrusting towards a new poster. I think Tree assumed I'd be a certain way, his "And please explain how you can be sure." seemed pointedly condescending to me -- that as a new poster, I was just spouting off opinions that I had no intention of supporting. This is partially why I was reluctant to post here -- the whole "Aramis is lazy" thing is strikingly similar to things you'd see on the old ESPN/cubs.com message boards like "Wood isn't tough," "Sosa's a prima-donna," "Dunn stinks in the clutch," etc, etc. It's dangerous territory, especially for a newcomer -- and that's basically what I meant to say.

 

Thanks for saying nice things about me.

 

I didn't mean to be condescending. If I was, sorry. But I'm pretty sure that I usually am the opposite of how people describe. I'm often harsher towards established posters that I'm familiar with, as I know that they'll be able to tell I'm not just looking to pick a fight.

[imb]

Treeman is mean, he had sex with my wife :(

[treebird]

Treeman is mean, he had sex with my wife :(

 

she HAS cancer

[imb]

Treeman is mean, he had sex with my wife :(

 

she HAS cancer

 

they're runnin out of you!

[Exile on Waveland]

I've always enjoyed Tree's posts here. In fact, Tree's style of posting -- baseball acumen with humor -- is part of the reason I decided to post here. In this case, though, I did find Tree to be a little distrusting towards a new poster. I think Tree assumed I'd be a certain way, his "And please explain how you can be sure." seemed pointedly condescending to me -- that as a new poster, I was just spouting off opinions that I had no intention of supporting. This is partially why I was reluctant to post here -- the whole "Aramis is lazy" thing is strikingly similar to things you'd see on the old ESPN/cubs.com message boards like "Wood isn't tough," "Sosa's a prima-donna," "Dunn stinks in the clutch," etc, etc. It's dangerous territory, especially for a newcomer -- and that's basically what I meant to say.

 

Thanks for saying nice things about me.

 

I didn't mean to be condescending. If I was, sorry. But I'm pretty sure that I usually am the opposite of how people describe. I'm often harsher towards established posters that I'm familiar with, as I know that they'll be able to tell I'm not just looking to pick a fight.

 

I'm glad you replied. In fact, I've been waiting around just for that reason. I hate that I came here and within a week I've basically initiated some idiotic argument. If you didn't mean to be condescending, then you weren't. I took it wrong, sorry.

 

As to the argument: I just felt it was dismissed a little too quickly. If I continue posting here, you'll find me on the "progressive baseball thinking" side nearly all the time. That's the reason I don't want something dismissed quickly -- the old guard of baseball has been quick to dismiss all things "sabermetric." It worries me that as sabermetricions we'd dismiss something just as quick. And, as I posted before, I realize this was a touchy subject in the first place (which was my reluctance as a newbie stemmed from).

[frostwyrm]

5. His body looks soft, he even has a slight double chin. Maybe he doesn't work/train much in the off season.

 

I am glad to see I am not the only one who has noticed this. He does seem to me to have some baby fat in his face, and his whole physique lacks muscle definition. I wouldn't even care about his appearance if he could stay healthy, but since he can't I do care. The type of injuries he gets are consistent with trying to play sports while being insufficiently conditioned. I would like to see him show up to spring training with a harder-looking body.

[Jimy is a misspell]

Treeman is mean, he had sex with my wife :(

 

she HAS cancer

 

they're runnin out of you!

 

What's the difference, you're their all time best seller! :lol:

[RynoRules]

5. His body looks soft, he even has a slight double chin. Maybe he doesn't work/train much in the off season.

 

I am glad to see I am not the only one who has noticed this. He does seem to me to have some baby fat in his face, and his whole physique lacks muscle definition. I wouldn't even care about his appearance if he could stay healthy, but since he can't I do care. The type of injuries he gets are consistent with trying to play sports while being insufficiently conditioned. I would like to see him show up to spring training with a harder-looking body.

 

I agree with both of you. You can sort of tell by the shape of his face, but the way his jersey "fits" him is even more indicative (contrast this w/ the way D Lee's jersey fits). It may be he prefers baggy jerseys, but I think its more likely that he is just soft in the middle. A little conditioning would not hurt him. He should get on Lee and Burnitz's program - those guys look to be in great shape.

[The Voice of Reason]

I agree that ARam has not been hustling. I've read somewhere that he's intentionally not hustling now b/c of his leg injury (so expect some slack here for that). They [EDIT: by "they" I mean the Cubs] would rather have 80% of ARam in the lineup every day than 100% of Macias - a decision I fully agree with.

 

On the other hand, I've seen ARam play seemingly lazy baseball when he's 100% healthy, so I see your point and agree that ARam could be even better if he tried harder. But maybe he's like Manny in that you have to take the good w/ the bad. Given how hard it's been for the Cubs to have even an average 3B since Santo, I guess we'll take what we can get.

 

Oh, and nice dig at the Cards fan. Dig he get booted back to the cheap seats?

 

 

I realize it was a different era and he had his problems off the field, but check out the HBO documentary on Mickey Mantle. He always hustled despite being in constant and incredible pain.

 

How come people always forget abut Bill Madlock? He hit .313, .354 and .339 with the Cubs. Could have been one of their best 3B (career. 305 average) if the Cubs weren't too cheap to pay him what he deserved and didn't trade him for a has-been like Bobby Murcer.

 

No, the Usher gave him a break.

[Iceblink]

Aramis is a huge part of the lineup. About the only negative thing I'd say is that he's not a leader, and he could stand to get moving when he hits long fly balls. I understand he's been hurt and taking it easy, but that doesn't excuse watching fly balls that might get out.

 

To give an example of what I mean by "not a leader": during Rich Hill's disastrous start in New York, Ramirez caught a hard-hit liner that was right at him. The camera was on him after the catch, and he just kind of resignedly tossed the ball back to Hill and turned away. I noticed it because there was a real chance to walk to the mound and pat a young pitcher on the back in a tough situation, and Ramirez didn't even make eye contact with him.

 

Still, after a decade or two of Buecheles and Laws, I can live with that.

[AAApittsburgh]

 

To give an example of what I mean by "not a leader": during Rich Hill's disastrous start in New York, Ramirez caught a hard-hit liner that was right at him. The camera was on him after the catch, and he just kind of resignedly tossed the ball back to Hill and turned away. I noticed it because there was a real chance to walk to the mound and pat a young pitcher on the back in a tough situation, and Ramirez didn't even make eye contact with him.

I think Lee, Nomar, or Walker would have done to same thing Aramis did. Only Neifi would walk to the mound, chat with him, and pat him on the back.