Clemens,Carpenter, or Willis for Cy Young? (edit)

[K-Town]

It's not the "Award for having the best ERA". It's the Cy Young Award for the Best Pitcher. It's not Carpenter's fault that he's had great run support, any more than it's Clemens' fault that he's had a lack of it. For those of you who think it should be Clemens in a landslide, and don't think Wins should factor into it, fine. However, that means that Clemens' award last year was a sham. Furthermore, even if wins aren't considered, Carpenter is still a legitimate candidate. He's pitched 7 complete games, with 4 shutouts. He and Roger have thrown a similar number of pitches, but Chris has efficiently spread those pitches out over more innings.

 

Fight the good fight, Amy. I've done my best, but you'll never get past the ERA thing. :)

 

How about these stats?

 

VORP-

Clemens: 80.1

Carpenter: 73.9

 

Pitchers EXP W/L

Carpenter: 16-7

Clemens: 15-4

 

Those two stats add a completely different perspective.

 

Again, aren't those stats pretty much directly related to ERA? Or not?

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Want to tell me what I'm going to have for lunch while you're at it?

 

A Rueben sandwich. And you're going to make one for me out of the kindness of your heart.

 

I'm really hungry.

[K-Town]

Settle down, CubbieBlue. The Prior comment was in no way meant to be offensive. Ask any Cardinal fan, and he'll tell you that he (or she, in Amy's case) would LOVE to have Prior. I only used him, because I thought it would be an example that the folks here could relate to. Wouldn't it be great if Prior could pitch deeper into games? Especially with the Cubs' bullpen struggling. That's all I was saying. Don't be so defensive.

 

The difference in ERA is .71. When this thread started 3 weeks ago, the difference was .93. So it's dropped almost a quarter of a run in just 3 weeks.

 

I don't disagree that there's a big difference between a .3 gap, and a .75 gap. That's why I asked the question. I guess we'll see what happens.

 

Don't tell me to settle down, I'm actually quite calm. You've been doing this ever since you got here, and as you can see, I'm not the only one that's noticed. You'll make your little cheap shot here and there, and then try to cover it up with comments like, "oh, but I'd love to have Prior on my team."

 

I probably have a hundred posts in this thread, and you've found 2 that were "offensive" (I actually don't think that the Prior comment was offensive at all, but maybe some of you are more sensitive than I had figured). I'm not trying to cover up ANYTHING. There's an edit mode here. If I wanted to cover up, I'd use it.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

It's not the "Award for having the best ERA". It's the Cy Young Award for the Best Pitcher. It's not Carpenter's fault that he's had great run support, any more than it's Clemens' fault that he's had a lack of it. For those of you who think it should be Clemens in a landslide, and don't think Wins should factor into it, fine. However, that means that Clemens' award last year was a sham. Furthermore, even if wins aren't considered, Carpenter is still a legitimate candidate. He's pitched 7 complete games, with 4 shutouts. He and Roger have thrown a similar number of pitches, but Chris has efficiently spread those pitches out over more innings.

 

Fight the good fight, Amy. I've done my best, but you'll never get past the ERA thing. :)

 

How about these stats?

 

VORP-

Clemens: 80.1

Carpenter: 73.9

 

Pitchers EXP W/L

Carpenter: 16-7

Clemens: 15-4

 

Those two stats add a completely different perspective.

 

Again, aren't those stats pretty much directly related to ERA? Or not?

 

They take far more into account than just ERA and also factor in innings pitched which you seem to be so fond of. What they do not take into account is "team" performance.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Want to tell me what I'm going to have for lunch while you're at it?

 

A Rueben sandwich. And you're going to make one for me out of the kindness of your heart.

 

I'm really hungry.

 

You really over-estimate the cafeteria here.

[K-Town]

 

Frankly, YOU laid the bait when you started this thread, Vance. You'll never fess up, but there's really no other motive for you to start the thread, considering it's such a "no contest".

 

There's no motive...then why did I start an AL Cy thread as well?

 

I started the thread on a CUBS message board!!! If I really wanted to bait Cardinal fans, wouldn't I have started this on Cards Talk or the SportsCartel or BirdsontheBat?

 

You really have some great insights into my motives...:roll:

 

Want to tell me what I'm going to have for lunch while you're at it?

 

Interestingly enough, you started the AL thread under "Baseball Discussion", and the NL thread under "Rivalries".

 

Why didn't you start the thread on a Cardinal board? Because Cubs fans like yourself would be banned for calling Cardinal fans names on those boards, but it's perfectly acceptable here.

 

Enjoy your lunch, whatever it turns out to be.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

I never said anything about your posts being offensive. I said you were trying to rile people up with little subtle cheap shots and snide remarks. And there are way more than 2 examples of that. Wrapping a cheap shot up in compliments doesn't change the fact that it's a cheap shot.

 

It's like the compliment sandwich where you say something nice about someone, then something mean, then something nice again.

 

"You look like Snoopy and it makes me smile.... You have smelly dog farts... Oh, you really wowed that rep from Cincinnati last week."

[K-Town]

They take far more into account than just ERA and also factor in innings pitched which you seem to be so fond of. What they do not take into account is "team" performance.

 

The reason Clemens leads the VORP is because of his ERA though, right?

[K-Town]

I never said anything about your posts being offensive. I said you were trying to rile people up with little subtle cheap shots and snide remarks. And there are way more than 2 examples of that. Wrapping a cheap shot up in compliments doesn't change the fact that it's a cheap shot.

 

It's like the compliment sandwich where you say something nice about someone, then something mean, then something nice again.

 

"You look like Snoopy and it makes me smile.... You have smelly dog farts... Oh, you really wowed that rep from Cincinnati last week."

 

You're awfully sensitive.

[gus_dog]

".... You have smelly dog farts...

 

:lol:

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Interestingly enough, you started the AL thread under "Baseball Discussion", and the NL thread under "Rivalries".

 

Why didn't you start the thread on a Cardinal board? Because Cubs fans like yourself would be banned for calling Cardinal fans names on those boards, but it's perfectly acceptable here.

 

Enjoy your lunch, whatever it turns out to be.

 

I don't recall anyone calling you names. Someone called your post ignorant I believe, but personal attacks are not allowed here.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

 

Frankly, YOU laid the bait when you started this thread, Vance. You'll never fess up, but there's really no other motive for you to start the thread, considering it's such a "no contest".

 

There's no motive...then why did I start an AL Cy thread as well?

 

I started the thread on a CUBS message board!!! If I really wanted to bait Cardinal fans, wouldn't I have started this on Cards Talk or the SportsCartel or BirdsontheBat?

 

You really have some great insights into my motives...:roll:

 

Want to tell me what I'm going to have for lunch while you're at it?

 

Interestingly enough, you started the AL thread under "Baseball Discussion", and the NL thread under "Rivalries".

 

Why didn't you start the thread on a Cardinal board? Because Cubs fans like yourself would be banned for calling Cardinal fans names on those boards, but it's perfectly acceptable here.

 

Enjoy your lunch, whatever it turns out to be.

 

I started it in rivalries because the two main contenders for the award are on rivals of the Cubs. I'd have done the same if Sheets and Oliver Perez were involved. I started the AL thread where it is, because it doesn't really concern our rivals unless you think Garland has a chance, which I don't.

 

I've posted on a number of Cardinal boards and I've yet to be banned. And while you may act like a martyr here, I've been treated worse on CardsTalk for much less. Much of the treatment you've received here you've brought on yourself.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

They take far more into account than just ERA and also factor in innings pitched which you seem to be so fond of. What they do not take into account is "team" performance.

 

The reason Clemens leads the VORP is because of his ERA though, right?

 

It could be that his ERA is nearly a run better than Carpenter, yes.

[K-Town]

They take far more into account than just ERA and also factor in innings pitched which you seem to be so fond of. What they do not take into account is "team" performance.

 

The reason Clemens leads the VORP is because of his ERA though, right?

 

It could be that his ERA is nearly a run better than Carpenter, yes.

 

It's not nearly a run better.

[K-Town]

 

Frankly, YOU laid the bait when you started this thread, Vance. You'll never fess up, but there's really no other motive for you to start the thread, considering it's such a "no contest".

 

There's no motive...then why did I start an AL Cy thread as well?

 

I started the thread on a CUBS message board!!! If I really wanted to bait Cardinal fans, wouldn't I have started this on Cards Talk or the SportsCartel or BirdsontheBat?

 

You really have some great insights into my motives...:roll:

 

Want to tell me what I'm going to have for lunch while you're at it?

 

Interestingly enough, you started the AL thread under "Baseball Discussion", and the NL thread under "Rivalries".

 

Why didn't you start the thread on a Cardinal board? Because Cubs fans like yourself would be banned for calling Cardinal fans names on those boards, but it's perfectly acceptable here.

 

Enjoy your lunch, whatever it turns out to be.

 

I started it in rivalries because the two main contenders for the award are on rivals of the Cubs. I'd have done the same if Sheets and Oliver Perez were involved. I started the AL thread where it is, because it doesn't really concern our rivals unless you think Garland has a chance, which I don't.

 

I've posted on a number of Cardinal boards and I've yet to be banned. And while you may act like a martyr here, I've been treated worse on CardsTalk for much less. Much of the treatment you've received here you've brought on yourself.

 

I've brought it on myself by daring to disagree with you. So be it.

 

 

I made one comment about Prior (which wasn't the least bit offensive), and broke all of your hearts, and yet I'M a martyr?

[K-Town]

If the Prior comment was offensive, then you guys must put alot of value in a pitcher not being able to go deep into a game (because that's all I said about Prior). You guys are making a bigger deal out of it than I am.

[IlliniAmy]

K-Town, take your own advice....it's not worth it. A couple of these guys are wearing glasses so darkly Cubbie blue that the butter on their morning toasts must look like green mold.

 

My husband is a Cub fan and while on some issues, he can pester the hell out of me (usually just to be ornery), even he can see the value in having a pitcher throw complete games and preserve the bullpen vs being yanked after the 6th inning (7th if the team's lucky) all season long.

 

I'd rather debate him on Cardinal/Cub issues than people who are so frustrated and jealous that they can't see the value of a pitcher simply because he's wearing a Cardinal uniform.

 

FWIW, I think Prior's awesome and you were correct, I'd love to have him on my team. I think it sucks for Derrek Lee that his chances for the MVP are swirling down the toilet with Cubs' playoff chances. I've even gained (some) respect for Carlos Zambrano this year, who I think may finally be getting his "demons" in check. As a Cardinal fan, that's pretty scary, because he already has the great stuff; now that his mental issues seem to be ironing themselves out as well, we could be in for a heap of trouble. I think Greg Maddux is one of the classiest competitors to don a MLB uniform.

 

I guarantee you if Mark Prior had Chris Carpenter's 2005 stats, I'd love to see him win the Cy Young over Roger Clemens. I'm glad that people with more complex mind sets get to decide who "should" win the Cy Young Award, otherwise, as I previously suggested, the name of the award should be changed to "Congratulations, you had the best ERA in the N.L. this year".

[Transmogrified Tiger]

K-Town, take your own advice....it's not worth it. A couple of these guys are wearing glasses so darkly Cubbie blue that the butter on their morning toasts must look like green mold.

 

My husband is a Cub fan and while on some issues, he can pester the hell out of me (usually just to be ornery), even he can see the value in having a pitcher throw complete games and preserve the bullpen vs being yanked after the 6th inning (7th if the team's lucky) all season long.

 

I'd rather debate him on Cardinal/Cub issues than people who are so frustrated and jealous that they can't see the value of a pitcher simply because he's wearing a Cardinal uniform.

 

Awesome.

[imb]

The internet is a big place, I'm sure there's a Cardinal board somewhere for you guys to blow Carpenter on.

[K-Town]

Interestingly enough, you started the AL thread under "Baseball Discussion", and the NL thread under "Rivalries".

 

Why didn't you start the thread on a Cardinal board? Because Cubs fans like yourself would be banned for calling Cardinal fans names on those boards, but it's perfectly acceptable here.

 

Enjoy your lunch, whatever it turns out to be.

 

I don't recall anyone calling you names. Someone called your post ignorant I believe, but personal attacks are not allowed here.

 

Apparently they are.

 

The internet is a big place, I'm sure there's a Cardinal board somewhere for you guys to blow Carpenter on.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The internet is a big place, I'm sure there's a Cardinal board somewhere for you guys to blow Carpenter on.

 

It's funny, they say that the only stat we care about is ERA, but ignore VORP, RS, and EXP W/L. We've provide them some additonal stats, but they simply ignore it.

 

And I'll say this for the last time. My case against Carpenter has nothing to do with his being a Cardinal. I hate the Astros, including Clemens, as much as I do the Cardinals.

 

Ask my nephew how much I laughed at Clemens's shelling in the 2004 ASG. I hate the man, but I've got to give him his due. He's been a better pitcher than Carpenter this year, and therefore, should win the Cy Young.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

K-Town, take your own advice....it's not worth it. A couple of these guys are wearing glasses so darkly Cubbie blue that the butter on their morning toasts must look like green mold.

 

My husband is a Cub fan and while on some issues, he can pester the hell out of me (usually just to be ornery), even he can see the value in having a pitcher throw complete games and preserve the bullpen vs being yanked after the 6th inning (7th if the team's lucky) all season long.

 

I'd rather debate him on Cardinal/Cub issues than people who are so frustrated and jealous that they can't see the value of a pitcher simply because he's wearing a Cardinal uniform.

 

FWIW, I think Prior's awesome and you were correct, I'd love to have him on my team. I think it sucks for Derrek Lee that his chances for the MVP are swirling down the toilet with Cubs' playoff chances. I've even gained (some) respect for Carlos Zambrano this year, who I think may finally be getting his "demons" in check. As a Cardinal fan, that's pretty scary, because he already has the great stuff; now that his mental issues seem to be ironing themselves out as well, we could be in for a heap of trouble. I think Greg Maddux is one of the classiest competitors to don a MLB uniform.

 

I guarantee you if Mark Prior had Chris Carpenter's 2005 stats, I'd love to see him win the Cy Young over Roger Clemens. I'm glad that people with more complex mind sets get to decide who "should" win the Cy Young Award, otherwise, as I previously suggested, the name of the award should be changed to "Congratulations, you had the best ERA in the N.L. this year".

 

Wow, and Amy completely missed the point on all of this. I'd like to bet that if you asked everyone here, the majority would tell you that hate Roger Clemens. That includes me. I don't hate Chris Carpenter. So this has nothing to do with 'seeing only Cubbie Blue'. It has to do with the fact that Clemens stats are better this year. And the only person to bring up Mark Prior was your boy K-Town. Prior isn't even close to being in the running for the Cy Young this year.

 

Yes, we all see the value is someone who can throw complete games. But we also see what happened to Carpenter last time he threw 200 innings... So you guys just keep throwing your precious complete games in meaningless situations with a pitcher that's only gone over 200 innings once in his career, and then had to be put on the shelf right after. But hey, none of that matters if he wins a meaningless award though right?

[K-Town]

The internet is a big place, I'm sure there's a Cardinal board somewhere for you guys to blow Carpenter on.

 

It's funny, they say that the only stat we care about is ERA, but ignore VORP, RS, and EXP W/L. We've provide them some additonal stats, but they simply ignore it.

 

And I'll say this for the last time. My case against Carpenter has nothing to do with his being a Cardinal. I hate the Astros, including Clemens, as much as I do the Cardinals.

 

Ask my nephew how much I laughed at Clemens's shelling in the 2004 ASG. I hate the man, but I've got to give him his due. He's been a better pitcher than Carpenter this year, and therefore, should win the Cy Young.

 

 

The ERA dictates all of those other numbers. It's like saying "I'm not eating sugar, I'm eating cake".

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

It's funny that they accuse us of seeing only Cubbie blue, yet they can't get past all of that red that's in front of their eyes to see that the stats show Clemens is having a better year.

[JGalt73]

The internet is a big place, I'm sure there's a Cardinal board somewhere for you guys to blow Carpenter on.

 

It's funny, they say that the only stat we care about is ERA, but ignore VORP, RS, and EXP W/L. We've provide them some additonal stats, but they simply ignore it.

 

And I'll say this for the last time. My case against Carpenter has nothing to do with his being a Cardinal. I hate the Astros, including Clemens, as much as I do the Cardinals.

 

Ask my nephew how much I laughed at Clemens's shelling in the 2004 ASG. I hate the man, but I've got to give him his due. He's been a better pitcher than Carpenter this year, and therefore, should win the Cy Young.

 

 

The ERA dictates all of those other numbers. It's like saying "I'm not eating sugar, I'm eating cake".

 

Hmmm.... the number of runs you allow effects how good of a pitcher you are? Never thought of that one...