Another Idiotic Decision by NCAA

[dalgreen]

All of this begs the question: why were these schools named Choctaws, Utes, Seminoles, Illini in the first place? If not for tribute then what. I equate a tribute as being the same thing as naming them because they once lived in the area of the school. People seem to think "tribute" means it is some sort of glorified honoring of them. When I think of tribute as far as this is concerned I think of the regional distinctions. Choctaws lived in central Mississippi and this is where MC is located. The Seminoles lived in central and northern florida, this is where FSU is located, the Utes where in present day Utah.

 

And as far as the argument about them having logos that are warlike. Well, generally speaking mascots are supposed to be fierce. Most schools with animals try and be fierce: panthers, cougars, bears, lions, etc. The Rebels, Minutemen, and Volunteers have their rifles, the Trojans and Spartans have their swords the Indian mascots have their tomahawks. At least that's how I see it. And I know what you all will say "this furthers the racial sterotypes that they were cruel, bla bla" Well, a school called the "Savages" certainly does that. But I don't think a Tomahawk Chop promotes a stereotype. Does the firing of Cannons at some schools such as the Vols and Rebels further the stereotype that the particular group represented are violent? I honestly don't think that a person will look at the Tomahawk chop and go "oh gosh! I better watch out for Indians, they might hit me with a tomahawk" and if they do, well then, they are just idiots.

 

 

 

 

Disclaimer for Treebeard: Sorry if any of the words i've used in this diatribe have offended your sensibilities. I know that using the word "idiots" may offend actual idiots. Sorry.

 

You just refuse to get it. It's not the name so to speak as much as the ridiculous mascot. Since you say you're 1/16th Native, how many Native Americans do you know that look like that stupid logo on the Redskins helmet? Or look like Chief Illiniwek? Or the Cleveland Indians logo? Yet, you get ticked off at Blue Collar TV because it makes all southerners look like hics as you've stated. Hypocrisy at its best.

[snoodmonger]

I fear friends that one day, some of our beloved sports teams with offensive names will become generic boring names....CASE IN POINT....

 

THE MONTGOMERY BISCUITS

 

http://www.starstruck.com/images/P0067997.jpg

 

A biscuit with a stick of butter as a tongue is absolutely terrifying.

 

That logo is beyond awesome.

 

 

Does the firing of Cannons at some schools such as the Vols and Rebels further the stereotype that the particular group represented are violent? I honestly don't think that a person will look at the Tomahawk chop and go "oh gosh! I better watch out for Indians, they might hit me with a tomahawk" and if they do, well then, they are just idiots.

 

I don't see the parallel here. Vols, Minutemen, and Rebels refer to groups of people whose function WAS to fight. So to depict them as warlike, militant, or prepared for battle makes sense.

 

Seminoles, Utes, Illini, etc. were much more than fighters. They were rich cultures. So when we automatically slap a tomahawk or spear along with those tribal names, it is a misrepresentation of those cultures.

[OleMissCub]

You just refuse to get it. It's not the name so to speak as much as the ridiculous mascot. Since you say you're 1/16th Native, how many Native Americans do you know that look like that stupid logo on the Redskins helmet? Or look like Chief Illiniwek? Or the Cleveland Indians logo? Yet, you get ticked off at Blue Collar TV because it makes all southerners look like hics as you've stated. Hypocrisy at its best.

 

And YOU refuse to listen. I've said that Indian Joe is wrong. I've said Redskins and Redmen is wrong. But can you tell me what in gods name is wrong with the Mississippi College Choctaws. A school which has Choctaw indian mounds ON CAMPUS for crying out loud. Why should they be punished by the NCAA when they are roundly supported by the reservation nearby??

 

I could care less about the Utes or the Illini or Seminoles. What I care about is our local college which is full of freaking Choctaws being punished. And being part Choctaw, I like the fact that they are the Choctaws because for one thing, people and kids are stupid these days; How many people these days would know what a Seminole or a Ute was if it wasn't for the mascot. People have forgotten history and this is one way to remember it.

Edited August 6, 2005 by OleMissCub

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I fear friends that one day, some of our beloved sports teams with offensive names will become generic boring names....CASE IN POINT....

 

THE MONTGOMERY BISCUITS

 

http://www.starstruck.com/images/P0067997.jpg

 

A biscuit with a stick of butter as a tongue is absolutely terrifying.

 

That logo is beyond awesome.

 

 

Does the firing of Cannons at some schools such as the Vols and Rebels further the stereotype that the particular group represented are violent? I honestly don't think that a person will look at the Tomahawk chop and go "oh gosh! I better watch out for Indians, they might hit me with a tomahawk" and if they do, well then, they are just idiots.

 

I don't see the parallel here. Vols, Minutemen, and Rebels refer to groups of people whose function WAS to fight. So to depict them as warlike, militant, or prepared for battle makes sense.

 

Seminoles, Utes, Illini, etc. were much more than fighters. They were rich cultures. So when we automatically slap a tomahawk or spear along with those tribal names, it is a misrepresentation of those cultures.

 

You could make the argument that sports teams only represent the competitive, or fighting, side of the culture or tribe.

[OleMissCub]

 

You could make the argument that sports teams only represent the competitive, or fighting, side of the culture or tribe.

 

That was my point exactly. If a school is called the Chickisaw they aren't going to have a mascot depicting an Indian cleaning a buffalo's hide. They are going to have him being fierce.

[snoodmonger]

 

You could make the argument that sports teams only represent the competitive, or fighting, side of the culture or tribe.

 

That was my point exactly. If a school is called the Chickisaw they aren't going to have a mascot depicting an Indian cleaning a buffalo's hide. They are going to have him being fierce.

 

The intention behind the use is largely irrelevant. The end result is that entire cultures a represented as militant. Besides, if these were tributes, you'd think they'd want to memorialize more than one tiny part of these tribes' cultures.

 

 

And being part Choctaw, I like the fact that they are the Choctaws because for one thing, people and kids are stupid these days; How many people these days would know what a Seminole or a Ute was if it wasn't for the mascot. People have forgotten history and this is one way to remember it.

 

C'mon. Watching a football game played by an Indian mascotted team is hardly a history lesson. People aren't learning anything beyond the fact these tribes exist.

[OleMissCub]

 

[C'mon. Watching a football game played by an Indian mascotted team is hardly a history lesson. People aren't learning anything beyond the fact these tribes exist.

 

And you have a problem with that? At least that is a start.

[OleMissCub]

The intention behind the use is largely irrelevant. The end result is that entire cultures a represented as militant. Besides, if these were tributes, you'd think they'd want to memorialize more than one tiny part of these tribes' cultures.

 

Goodness gracious alive! Here we go again. You attack them by saying they weren't named to be tributes then WHY the hell are they named such???? No one has given a good answer. Other than Treebeard's brilliant yet farfetched idea about a "trophy prize" i've heard zero.

[snoodmonger]

 

[C'mon. Watching a football game played by an Indian mascotted team is hardly a history lesson. People aren't learning anything beyond the fact these tribes exist.

 

And you have a problem with that? At least that is a start.

 

I think you're really stretching by trying to make this into some historical learning experience--especially when all these people "learn" is that X tribe existed, and apparently they had broad, flat noses, were really warlike, and chanted while using tomahawks. If you were really such a truth seeker, you'd be appalled by the misrepresentations most of these mascots create.

[OleMissCub]

 

[C'mon. Watching a football game played by an Indian mascotted team is hardly a history lesson. People aren't learning anything beyond the fact these tribes exist.

 

And you have a problem with that? At least that is a start.

 

I think you're really stretching by trying to make this into some historical learning experience--especially when all these people "learn" is that X tribe existed, and apparently they had broad, flat noses, were really warlike, and chanted while using tomahawks. If you were really such a truth seeker, you'd be appalled by the misrepresentations most of these mascots create.

 

I just don't see how Mississippi College "Choctaws" is offensive at all. I think it sucks that our local school gets punished. They have a very nice Native American studies program, enroll lots of Indians from the Choctaw reservation, have burial mounds on campus, have Choctaw museums on campus. I don't see the school being named Choctaws FOR ANY OTHER REASON than as a tribute to the local indian tribe.

[snoodmonger]

 

[C'mon. Watching a football game played by an Indian mascotted team is hardly a history lesson. People aren't learning anything beyond the fact these tribes exist.

 

And you have a problem with that? At least that is a start.

 

I think you're really stretching by trying to make this into some historical learning experience--especially when all these people "learn" is that X tribe existed, and apparently they had broad, flat noses, were really warlike, and chanted while using tomahawks. If you were really such a truth seeker, you'd be appalled by the misrepresentations most of these mascots create.

 

I just don't see how Mississippi College "Choctaws" is offensive at all. I think it sucks that our local school gets punished. They have a very nice Native American studies program, enroll lots of Indians from the Choctaw reservation, have burial mounds on campus, have Choctaw museums on campus. I don't see the school being named Choctaws FOR ANY OTHER REASON than as a tribute to the local indian tribe.

 

You continue to use one rather unique example as representative of the whole problem. It sounds like MC is a place where it might really be a tribute. Great. Awesome. It doesn't justify the rest of the examples.

 

Goodness gracious alive! Here we go again. You attack them by saying they weren't named to be tributes then WHY the hell are they named such???? No one has given a good answer. Other than Treebeard's brilliant yet farfetched idea about a "trophy prize" i've heard zero.

 

I'm saying intention doesn't really matter if people find it offensive.

[OleMissCub]

 

You continue to use one rather unique example as representative of the whole problem. It sounds like MC is a place where it might really be a tribute. Great. Awesome. It doesn't justify the rest of the examples.

.

 

How do you know it's unique. I haven't heard of half the colleges that are banned. Maybe they have strong Native American ties in their communities?

[dalgreen]

You just refuse to get it. It's not the name so to speak as much as the ridiculous mascot. Since you say you're 1/16th Native, how many Native Americans do you know that look like that stupid logo on the Redskins helmet? Or look like Chief Illiniwek? Or the Cleveland Indians logo? Yet, you get ticked off at Blue Collar TV because it makes all southerners look like hics as you've stated. Hypocrisy at its best.

 

And YOU refuse to listen. I've said that Indian Joe is wrong. I've said Redskins and Redmen is wrong. But can you tell me what in gods name is wrong with the Mississippi College Choctaws. A school which has Choctaw indian mounds ON CAMPUS for crying out loud. Why should they be punished by the NCAA when they are roundly supported by the reservation nearby??

 

I could care less about the Utes or the Illini or Seminoles. What I care about is our local college which is full of freaking Choctaws being punished. And being part Choctaw, I like the fact that they are the Choctaws because for one thing, people and kids are stupid these days; How many people these days would know what a Seminole or a Ute was if it wasn't for the mascot. People have forgotten history and this is one way to remember it.

 

If the Choctaw Nation is not offended by it, so be it. I still say all state funded schools should put their team mascots up for vote to be voted only by those who are 100% Native. Would you be against that? I am not Choctaw and really would only like to hear from those that are 100% Choctaw on the subject.

 

And please spare me the forgotten history line. That's what museums are for. And if museums were built, the ones crying that Native names are meant to honor them wouldn't be the ones showing up in the museums. By the way, why is Blue Collar TV offensive to you? I think it's honoring the some of the southern culture. Okay, not really, but I don't see why you're offended by this but can't understand why some Choctaws may be upset at Mississippi College's mascot.

[OleMissCub]

By the way, why is Blue Collar TV offensive to you? I think it's honoring the some of the southern culture. Okay, not really, but I don't see why you're offended by this but can't understand why some Choctaws may be upset at Mississippi College's mascot.

 

There is nothing, zero, zilch, stereotypical about the MC Choctaws. They don't even have a mascot who dances around. And to my knowledge there are no Choctaws who have a problem with the name of the school. If there are, that's a different matter. I think the Choctaws have bigger issues to worry about than Mississippi College, like running their massive Casinos they put on their reservation in Philadelphia, Mississippi.

[OleMissCub]

 

If the Choctaw Nation is not offended by it, so be it. I still say all state funded schools should put their team mascots up for vote to be voted only by those who are 100% Native. Would you be against that? I am not Choctaw and really would only like to hear from those that are 100% Choctaw on the subject.

 

 

I wouldn't be opposed to that at all. I think alot of the people on your side of the argument would be surprised that the majority of Indians couldn't give a damn about their tribe being the mascot of a local college.

 

It reminds me of a Mississippi issue a few years ago. There was a big deal about the Mississippi State Flag being raised because there is a Confederate emblem in the State Flag. Well, Jesse Jackson and Sharpton came down and pressured our Governor into holding a flag vote to keep it or change it. Well as it turns out over 75 percent statewide voted to keep it and 80 percent of the dominantly black counties in the state voted to keep the confederate emblem in the flag.

[adamb0719]

http://jss.sagepub.com/cgi/rapidpdf/28/1/79.pdf

If anyone cares to read it; an interesting essay of Indians as mascots.

[dougdescenzo]

Does nobody think that each and every individual university has gotten into this argument before, and that each and every university has found their mascot to be reasonable?? The fact that the NCAA, the group that governs these universities in athletic events, deams them unreasonable while each individual institution does not is absurd to me. Maybe the native american the Chief Illineweke is portraying is as much of history as anything else in this country. Certainly nobody seeing a native american acting as "the chief" can argue that the past which governs nicknames such as Pilgrims and Minutemen does not apply. Every nickname comes from some sort of history, why does a native american tribe/nickname not apply?

 

 

Olemisscub......what's that girls number?

[SouthSideRyan]

Does nobody think that each and every individual university has gotten into this argument before, and that each and every university has found their mascot to be reasonable??

 

Of course. U of I goes through this just about every year, and every year the chief is retained. I just don't understand what caused this ruling, I've heard little to nothing in terms of backlash about Native American nicknames as of late.

 

Were people so distracted by the name Illini that they couldn't enjoy the basketball tournament? I know every shot they hit coming back was bittersweet because I thought about how a tribe that no longer exists was being oppressed because of the presence of a Native American studies major doing a native dance at halftime that isn't ever shown on TV. Just tore my heart up.

[treebird]

The intention behind the use is largely irrelevant. The end result is that entire cultures a represented as militant. Besides, if these were tributes, you'd think they'd want to memorialize more than one tiny part of these tribes' cultures.

 

Goodness gracious alive! Here we go again. You attack them by saying they weren't named to be tributes then WHY the hell are they named such???? No one has given a good answer. Other than Treebeard's brilliant yet farfetched idea about a "trophy prize" i've heard zero.

 

i posted this earlier. it seems pretty simple and logical.

 

another likely reason for their establishment is the fact that due to the stereotypical dance and dress they are given, it'd be easy to pick them out and recognize them from a distance.

[Derwood]

I think Bud Selig is behind this. It smacks of his half-assed solution track record.

 

NCAA's Message: Name your team anything you want so long as it's not during a nationally televised game where we're making truckloads of cash from corporate sponsors who don't give two craps about amateur athletics.

[OleMissCub]

 

another likely reason for their establishment is the fact that due to the stereotypical dance and dress they are given, it'd be easy to pick them out and recognize them from a distance.

 

Our local school MC was named Choctaws in 1836. It was originally an all girls college which had no sports. I'm not sure that flies, at least not in this situation. It is a possible theory though which I will accept as valid. However, I think that in the case of Choctaws, Utes, Seminoles, Illini and other "tribe" schools which are in the area of the actual tribes, I think that most likely is tribute. On the other hand, schools that are Braves, Indians, etc, basic generic Indian names, then I think you may have a case.

[dalgreen]

 

another likely reason for their establishment is the fact that due to the stereotypical dance and dress they are given, it'd be easy to pick them out and recognize them from a distance.

 

Our local school MC was named Choctaws in 1836. It was originally an all girls college which had no sports. I'm not sure that flies, at least not in this situation. It is a possible theory though which I will accept as valid. However, I think that in the case of Choctaws, Utes, Seminoles, Illini and other "tribe" schools which are in the area of the actual tribes, I think that most likely is tribute. On the other hand, schools that are Braves, Indians, etc, basic generic Indian names, then I think you may have a case.

 

Having a white guy (as is the case with Chief Illiniwek) in war paint doing a dance that isn't even a real Native dance is not a tribute. Maybe the nickname was meant as a tribute, but Chief Illiniwek is no more different than you being upset at Blue Collar TV's image of Southerners. Plus, I believe the ruling has to do with mascots, so the issue of the nicknames doesn't come into play. It's the mascots that do, and they are stereotypical and bogus.

[OleMissCub]

 

another likely reason for their establishment is the fact that due to the stereotypical dance and dress they are given, it'd be easy to pick them out and recognize them from a distance.

 

Our local school MC was named Choctaws in 1836. It was originally an all girls college which had no sports. I'm not sure that flies, at least not in this situation. It is a possible theory though which I will accept as valid. However, I think that in the case of Choctaws, Utes, Seminoles, Illini and other "tribe" schools which are in the area of the actual tribes, I think that most likely is tribute. On the other hand, schools that are Braves, Indians, etc, basic generic Indian names, then I think you may have a case.

 

Having a white guy (as is the case with Chief Illiniwek) in war paint doing a dance that isn't even a real Native dance is not a tribute. Maybe the nickname was meant as a tribute, but Chief Illiniwek is no more different than you being upset at Blue Collar TV's image of Southerners. Plus, I believe the ruling has to do with mascots, so the issue of the nicknames doesn't come into play. It's the mascots that do, and they are stereotypical and bogus.

 

I never said the idiots who jump around on the sidelines were tributes, I said that naming the University after the local Indian tribe probably is.

[Electron Blue]

 

another likely reason for their establishment is the fact that due to the stereotypical dance and dress they are given, it'd be easy to pick them out and recognize them from a distance.

 

Our local school MC was named Choctaws in 1836. It was originally an all girls college which had no sports. I'm not sure that flies, at least not in this situation. It is a possible theory though which I will accept as valid. However, I think that in the case of Choctaws, Utes, Seminoles, Illini and other "tribe" schools which are in the area of the actual tribes, I think that most likely is tribute. On the other hand, schools that are Braves, Indians, etc, basic generic Indian names, then I think you may have a case.

 

Having a white guy (as is the case with Chief Illiniwek) in war paint doing a dance that isn't even a real Native dance is not a tribute. Maybe the nickname was meant as a tribute, but Chief Illiniwek is no more different than you being upset at Blue Collar TV's image of Southerners. Plus, I believe the ruling has to do with mascots, so the issue of the nicknames doesn't come into play. It's the mascots that do, and they are stereotypical and bogus.

 

I never said the idiots who jump around on the sidelines were tributes, I said that naming the University after the local Indian tribe probably is.

 

Well, that's a problem. You aren't going to see a school go by the name "Indians" and have a guy dressed up as an eagle as the mascot. They go hand-in-hand.

[SouthSideRyan]

 

another likely reason for their establishment is the fact that due to the stereotypical dance and dress they are given, it'd be easy to pick them out and recognize them from a distance.

 

Our local school MC was named Choctaws in 1836. It was originally an all girls college which had no sports. I'm not sure that flies, at least not in this situation. It is a possible theory though which I will accept as valid. However, I think that in the case of Choctaws, Utes, Seminoles, Illini and other "tribe" schools which are in the area of the actual tribes, I think that most likely is tribute. On the other hand, schools that are Braves, Indians, etc, basic generic Indian names, then I think you may have a case.

 

Having a white guy (as is the case with Chief Illiniwek) in war paint doing a dance that isn't even a real Native dance is not a tribute. Maybe the nickname was meant as a tribute, but Chief Illiniwek is no more different than you being upset at Blue Collar TV's image of Southerners. Plus, I believe the ruling has to do with mascots, so the issue of the nicknames doesn't come into play. It's the mascots that do, and they are stereotypical and bogus.

 

A white guy who is a Native American studies major and has respect for Native American culture. All of this offending a tribe that no longer exists apparently.