At what point does a manager take responsibility?

[LuvChicagoSports]

At what point does a manager have to take some responsibility for his players absolute lack of playing with fundamentals. Obviously some players just don't care and aren't going to play that way (Sammy). However over the last two seasons, the Cubs have had WAY too many mental mistakes on the fundamentals. Baserunning mistakes, people throwing over cut off men, not hitting conservatively when the situation calls, not covering bases. As bad as Dusty Baker is, everyone knows that he is at least making sure everyone knows the fundamentals in Spring Training. I just think he stops after Spring Training and he never holds players accountable. Twice tonight we saw a pitcher late to cover the base. Thing is it's not the first night that it has happened. Last night Burnitz took off for second base without watching the runners in front of him. I like the way Burnitz plays, but that was the second crucial baserunning mistake he's made this season late in a game. My question is that at what point does the trend of non-fundamental play become a reflection of the manager and not just the players. It seems as if players become lazy or mindless while playing for Dusty Baker. On top of Dusty not utilizing things like the hit and run or the squeeze, his players seem to just forget things like making contact with a man on second nobody out. I get tired of watching the same mindless baseball day in and day out, but the question is; is it our current group of players or does it have to do with the manger that is leading them? Or both? What can be done to change this as well?

[LuvChicagoSports]

Lofton nearly got a hit because Remlinger didn't cover the base. That is the third time tonight that this happened. What the hell is going on. Just as Brenly put it, this is simply unexcusable. To me it is unexcusable that they can get away with it without a manager being all over them.

[LuvChicagoSports]

Wow is all I can say. This one on of the worst fundamental baseball games I have ever seen. This is a horrible showing by the Chicago Cubs players. They looked like a college team out there. Looked absolutely lost making TONS of mistakes. This team looks like they play lazy or mindless baseball as I said previously.

[Illini Iceman]

Wow is all I can say. This one on of the worst fundamental baseball games I have ever seen. This is a horrible showing by the Chicago Cubs players. They looked like a college team out there. Looked absolutely lost making TONS of mistakes. This team looks like they play lazy or mindless baseball as I said previously.

 

College teams everywhere are very hurt and offended by your comments.

 

I had to post something here because I have never seen a thread before where it is just one poster that keeps replying to himself. I thought you might be getting lonely.

[Larry Horse]

If you're talking about Dusty with this question, the answer is never. It's all about the blame game with Dusty. (Heat, cold, fans, media....etc.)

[badger1679666666]

I'd ask at what point do the fans stop blaming Dusty and the Umps for everything (the heat, weather, media etc.) and lay the blame upon the players?

 

That would be refreshing especially after the display tonight.

 

I forgot they are Cub fans, it's always the manager or umps fault.

[hawkeyecub]

I'd ask at what point do the fans stop blaming Dusty and the Umps for everything (the heat, weather, media etc.) and lay the blame upon the players?

 

 

Are you suggesting that players should take some accountability and when they make mental mistakes or fail to execute properly, blame should fall on their shoulders?

Blasphemy!

[Larry Horse]

I'd ask at what point do the fans stop blaming Dusty and the Umps for everything (the heat, weather, media etc.) and lay the blame upon the players?

 

That would be refreshing especially after the display tonight.

 

I forgot they are Cub fans, it's always the manager or umps fault.

 

It's interesting you have "Play Cedeno" in bold letters. Who's fault is it that we have no idea if Cedeno could be an everyday SS? Who's fault is it when Remlinger is brought in yet again against a lefty to give up a hit? How about continuing to start "Holly" when he's hitting .250? How about never trying a squeeze play when the O is struggling? Oh I forgot, "My guys don't bunt" another Dusty excuse.

 

Yeah, tonight is all on the players, but no way is Dusty getting off easy in my book for this teams failures.

 

The items I paranthesized are examples of excuses given by Dusty, not the fans.

[badger1679666666]

I'd ask at what point do the fans stop blaming Dusty and the Umps for everything (the heat, weather, media etc.) and lay the blame upon the players?

 

That would be refreshing especially after the display tonight.

 

I forgot they are Cub fans, it's always the manager or umps fault.

 

It's interesting you have "Play Cedeno" in bold letters. Who's fault is it that we have no idea if Cedeno could be an everyday SS? Who's fault is it when Remlinger is brought in yet again against a lefty to give up a hit? How about continuing to start "Holly" when he's hitting .250? How about never trying a squeeze play when the O is struggling? Oh I forgot, "My guys don't bunt" another Dusty excuse.

 

Yeah, tonight is all on the players, but no way is Dusty getting off easy in my book for this teams failures.

 

The items I paranthesized are examples of excuses given by Dusty, not the fans.

 

If you are citing the WHOLE package as a reason to hate dusty, I'm with you. If people place blame of tonights fiasco on Dusty, well, I can't say what I'd say because it would be against the rules of the board.

[UMFan83]

See the thing that sucks, is that I can't even seeing Dusty mentioning this to the team. I can see him making excuses for the team and then forgetting about it the next game.

[dalgreen]

I'd ask at what point do the fans stop blaming Dusty and the Umps for everything (the heat, weather, media etc.) and lay the blame upon the players?

 

That would be refreshing especially after the display tonight.

 

I forgot they are Cub fans, it's always the manager or umps fault.

 

It's interesting you have "Play Cedeno" in bold letters. Who's fault is it that we have no idea if Cedeno could be an everyday SS? Who's fault is it when Remlinger is brought in yet again against a lefty to give up a hit? How about continuing to start "Holly" when he's hitting .250? How about never trying a squeeze play when the O is struggling? Oh I forgot, "My guys don't bunt" another Dusty excuse.

 

Yeah, tonight is all on the players, but no way is Dusty getting off easy in my book for this teams failures.

 

The items I paranthesized are examples of excuses given by Dusty, not the fans.

 

Who on this team do you feel comfortable asking to lay down a sac bunt, let alone a squeeze bunt? Maybe I was taught and told wrong, but you don't learn fundamentals at the major league level. That's what little league, high school, college, and the minors are for. I don't know of one major league pitcher when asked, "What are you supposed to do when the ball is hit to the right side?" answer, "I don't know.

[badger1679666666]

I'd ask at what point do the fans stop blaming Dusty and the Umps for everything (the heat, weather, media etc.) and lay the blame upon the players?

 

That would be refreshing especially after the display tonight.

 

I forgot they are Cub fans, it's always the manager or umps fault.

 

It's interesting you have "Play Cedeno" in bold letters. Who's fault is it that we have no idea if Cedeno could be an everyday SS? Who's fault is it when Remlinger is brought in yet again against a lefty to give up a hit? How about continuing to start "Holly" when he's hitting .250? How about never trying a squeeze play when the O is struggling? Oh I forgot, "My guys don't bunt" another Dusty excuse.

 

Yeah, tonight is all on the players, but no way is Dusty getting off easy in my book for this teams failures.

 

The items I paranthesized are examples of excuses given by Dusty, not the fans.

 

Who on this team do you feel comfortable asking to lay down a sac bunt, let alone a squeeze bunt? Maybe I was taught and told wrong, but you don't learn fundamentals at the major league level. That's what little league, high school, college, and the minors are for. I don't know of one major league pitcher when asked, "What are you supposed to do when the ball is hit to the right side?" answer, "I don't know.

 

Maddux, Hairston.

[NomarSammy]

What an interesting post...........I am a high school coach. I am literally scared everytime my team takes the field because I know they are a reflection of me (the coach) and when they do porrly I take it very personally. I for a long time have been a Dusty apologist, with the idea that I think we are misinformed and I always figured that there is more going on than what we "common" fans know about.

 

All of this being said, no is the time!!!!! If I am Dusty, I come out and tell the media tonight--as of tonight THINGS WILL CHANGE!! Put it all in your lap and change things. I think these guys want to win, want to succeed--sincerely I do--but I think it is time for Dusty to put the pressure on himself and say that he is taking over because what he has been doing has not been working. Tell them, that they will get redlight and not be allowed to swing like back in HS, they will do sprints for mental errors, etc.

 

The time is now--EXTREME TIMES CALL FOR EXTREME MEASURES.

 

Now, I know this will never happen, we will just get the regular shoulder shrug and say there is a lot of ball left--YUCK! :evil:

 

SO for blabbering--this is the first communication I have had with anyone since that thing they called a game tonight

[dalgreen]

I'd ask at what point do the fans stop blaming Dusty and the Umps for everything (the heat, weather, media etc.) and lay the blame upon the players?

 

That would be refreshing especially after the display tonight.

 

I forgot they are Cub fans, it's always the manager or umps fault.

 

It's interesting you have "Play Cedeno" in bold letters. Who's fault is it that we have no idea if Cedeno could be an everyday SS? Who's fault is it when Remlinger is brought in yet again against a lefty to give up a hit? How about continuing to start "Holly" when he's hitting .250? How about never trying a squeeze play when the O is struggling? Oh I forgot, "My guys don't bunt" another Dusty excuse.

 

Yeah, tonight is all on the players, but no way is Dusty getting off easy in my book for this teams failures.

 

The items I paranthesized are examples of excuses given by Dusty, not the fans.

 

Who on this team do you feel comfortable asking to lay down a sac bunt, let alone a squeeze bunt? Maybe I was taught and told wrong, but you don't learn fundamentals at the major league level. That's what little league, high school, college, and the minors are for. I don't know of one major league pitcher when asked, "What are you supposed to do when the ball is hit to the right side?" answer, "I don't know.

 

Maddux, Hairston.

 

That's the problem. Those guys aren't up when it's time for a squeeze play. And leave Hairston out of it, he'd miss the sign.

[Exile on Waveland]

As a fan of both the Cubs and IU basketball (Mike Davis), I'm inherently qualified to answer this question:

 

NEVER

[Balsa]

Dalgreen: Also add Prior, Williams, Murton, (I'm sure Lawton), and Burnitz.

[LuvChicagoSports]

I'd ask at what point do the fans stop blaming Dusty and the Umps for everything (the heat, weather, media etc.) and lay the blame upon the players?

 

That would be refreshing especially after the display tonight.

 

I forgot they are Cub fans, it's always the manager or umps fault.

 

It's interesting you have "Play Cedeno" in bold letters. Who's fault is it that we have no idea if Cedeno could be an everyday SS? Who's fault is it when Remlinger is brought in yet again against a lefty to give up a hit? How about continuing to start "Holly" when he's hitting .250? How about never trying a squeeze play when the O is struggling? Oh I forgot, "My guys don't bunt" another Dusty excuse.

 

Yeah, tonight is all on the players, but no way is Dusty getting off easy in my book for this teams failures.

 

The items I paranthesized are examples of excuses given by Dusty, not the fans.

 

If you are citing the WHOLE package as a reason to hate dusty, I'm with you. If people place blame of tonights fiasco on Dusty, well, I can't say what I'd say because it would be against the rules of the board.

 

I'm not saying tonight is Dusty's fault at all. Obviously it was a disgusting display by the players as the looked like they weren't aware of what to do, but I am saying that them looking like they don't know what to do is looking all to common. If there is a game or a couple games where mental mistakes can happen, but if it becomes a disgusting pattern as it has with the Cubs can the blame also be transferred to the manager. I'm not suggesting that they players aren't at fault too, because it is obvious that they are, but I am asking if the blame should also be put with the coaches and manager.

[erik316wttn]

I'd ask at what point do the fans stop blaming Dusty and the Umps for everything (the heat, weather, media etc.) and lay the blame upon the players?

 

That would be refreshing especially after the display tonight.

 

I forgot they are Cub fans, it's always the manager or umps fault.

 

It's not Dusty's fault that Remmy didn't cover the bag. But it WILL be Dusty's fault if he doesn't make it very clear to Remmy and everyone in that clubhouse that if sloppy play like that happens again, the offending party will have a very light wallet and may find himself collecting splinters for a game or two.

[Dirt Dog Sparly]

What an interesting post...........I am a high school coach. I am literally scared everytime my team takes the field because I know they are a reflection of me (the coach) and when they do porrly I take it very personally. I for a long time have been a Dusty apologist, with the idea that I think we are misinformed and I always figured that there is more going on than what we "common" fans know about.

 

All of this being said, no is the time!!!!! If I am Dusty, I come out and tell the media tonight--as of tonight THINGS WILL CHANGE!! Put it all in your lap and change things. I think these guys want to win, want to succeed--sincerely I do--but I think it is time for Dusty to put the pressure on himself and say that he is taking over because what he has been doing has not been working. Tell them, that they will get redlight and not be allowed to swing like back in HS, they will do sprints for mental errors, etc.

 

The time is now--EXTREME TIMES CALL FOR EXTREME MEASURES.

 

Now, I know this will never happen, we will just get the regular shoulder shrug and say there is a lot of ball left--YUCK! :evil:

 

SO for blabbering--this is the first communication I have had with anyone since that thing they called a game tonight

 

I am in the same boat you are and feel very much the same way. Dusty cant cover bases or hit the ball for these guys. But by God he sets the tone where this is ok or it isnt. The players may know how but there isnt a need to do so. In the end to me, tonight, this is a reflection of the Manager.

[SwisherSweet]

If a manager goes more than 100 games without leaving the dugout more than twice to argue a call on behalf of his players, he should be canned.

[Satch80]

I hear ya Sammy. I am a coach also (LL) and if my team turned in a display such as tonight I would be embarrassed because even my little guys know how to do a proper rundown and my pitchers know when and how to cover first.

I am shocked, really, at how fundamentally unsound this team is. And these are not rookies. They've been trained in various systems. They have played baseball all their life. Do they suddenly become dumb as a Cub?

Tonight was a nightmare but it was only a continuation of poor fundamentals, game after game. If this were to happen to any coach's team in any competitive league everyone involved would be blaming the coach, I guarantee it, and they should. Because once players are taught the proper way to perform ( coach's responsibility) they are expected to execute, and if they don't, it is the coach's responsibility to find out why and substitute, bench or whatever it takes to insure that the team perorms

the way it is capable.

I don't blame Dusty for failure to cover first, perform proper rundowns, bunt, move runners etc. but I do blame him for allowing these lapses to continue without some visible and tangible methods to correct the problem. If players need to be benched, do it, no matter who it is. If they need to be yanked from the game, yank them. Take away the green lights. If they play like idiots, treat them like idiots. Do what is necessary to field a team that is focused and competitive. Anything less is cheating the game, the fans and in the long run, the players as well.

Sorry for the long rant. Just can't believe this garbage I saw tonight.

[Backtobanks]

And let's not forget that the reason everyone loves playing for Dusty is that he'll never get on their case for messing up. Just once, I'd like to see him go crazy (tear up the dugout, smash a water cooler, etc.) over something stupid the Cubs did on the field.

[LoneStarCubFan]

I can't get too mad at Remlinger for not covering first last night. No way in hell he beats Lofton to the bag on that play even if he tries. A 39-year-old lefty falling towards third base when he releases the pitch does not beat Kenny Lofton in a foot race to first.

[Derwood]

The problem with Dusty being a "player's manager" is that he's buddies with everyone. It's like a parent wanting to be buddies with his kids. Once that relationship is established, you can't discipline them anymore. A manager like Lou Piniella, Jack McKeon, etc. would have a closed door meeting right after the game and rip everyone a new a**hole. We need a baseball manager in the mold of Bill Parcell or Bill Cowher of the NFL.

 

EDIT: Sorry BacktoBanks. I didn't read your post. Well, we agree, even if I repeated your general sentiments.

[snoodmonger]

I can't get too mad at Remlinger for not covering first last night. No way in hell he beats Lofton to the bag on that play even if he tries. A 39-year-old lefty falling towards third base when he releases the pitch does not beat Kenny Lofton in a foot race to first.

 

I couldn't disagree more. It's his job to make the effort. If he does and gets beat, then tip your hat to Lofton. But he has to try. Saying he doesn't is like saying, "I don't care if ARam runs to first base on a routine grounder. It's not like he'll beat it out." A lot can happen on any given play. If a player is busting his hump all the time, he'll have the opportunity to take advantage of those potential minor miscues.