Another example of the Hall of Fame getting watered down

[vaball]

If Ozzie had been a Cub there is no way anyone on this board would say he doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.

 

i dont know how you can say that with any certainty

 

i dont think dawson should be in the hall, and i couldve sworn he was a cub

 

Well you can apply most of their arguments against Ozzie's worthiness to Sandberg and see that they fit him pretty well too. Yet they don't seem to have a problem with him in the Hall.

 

Except Ozzie never put up offensive numbers like Ryno did.

 

No, but people are saying that Ozzie shouldn't be in the Hall because his offense wasn't good enough. Sandberg's was better than Ozzie's, but you can say that it too wasn't good enough.

 

I say that if a player is voted in to the Hall of Fame then he deserves to be there.

[vaball]

If Ozzie had been a Cub there is no way anyone on this board would say he doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.

 

i dont know how you can say that with any certainty

 

i dont think dawson should be in the hall, and i couldve sworn he was a cub

 

Well you can apply most of their arguments against Ozzie's worthiness to Sandberg and see that they fit him pretty well too. Yet they don't seem to have a problem with him in the Hall.

 

Yeah, but Sandberg was 10 times the hitter Ozzie was, but Ozzie was not 10 times the fielder Sandberg was. As an all around player, Ozzie was a quite a few rungs down from Sandberg. Ryno was the best offensive and defensive 2B for nearly a decade. Ozzie was the best defensive SS for similar period, but he was a offensive non-entity, really. Even so, Ryno is a marginal HOF'er, barely good enough to get in, IMO.

 

I don't think it's fair to call him an "offensive non-entity." Maybe by today's standards he is, but not when he played in the 80's.

[XZero771679666304]

If Ozzie had been a Cub there is no way anyone on this board would say he doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.

 

i dont know how you can say that with any certainty

 

i dont think dawson should be in the hall, and i couldve sworn he was a cub

 

Well you can apply most of their arguments against Ozzie's worthiness to Sandberg and see that they fit him pretty well too. Yet they don't seem to have a problem with him in the Hall.

 

Except Ozzie never put up offensive numbers like Ryno did.

 

No, but people are saying that Ozzie shouldn't be in the Hall because his offense wasn't good enough. Sandberg's was better than Ozzie's, but you can say that it too wasn't good enough.

 

I say that if a player is voted in to the Hall of Fame then he deserves to be there.

 

Yeah, but Sandberg was a hell of a second baseman. 9 consecutive GG's, the record for consecutive errorless games by a 2B.....He wasn't the one dimensional player that Ozzie was.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

If Ozzie had been a Cub there is no way anyone on this board would say he doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.

 

i dont know how you can say that with any certainty

 

i dont think dawson should be in the hall, and i couldve sworn he was a cub

 

Well you can apply most of their arguments against Ozzie's worthiness to Sandberg and see that they fit him pretty well too. Yet they don't seem to have a problem with him in the Hall.

 

Except Ozzie never put up offensive numbers like Ryno did.

 

No, but people are saying that Ozzie shouldn't be in the Hall because his offense wasn't good enough. Sandberg's was better than Ozzie's, but you can say that it too wasn't good enough.

 

I say that if a player is voted in to the Hall of Fame then he deserves to be there.

 

Until last season, Ryno held the record for most homers EVER by a 2B. I'd say that's good enough.

[XZero771679666304]

If Ozzie had been a Cub there is no way anyone on this board would say he doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.

 

i dont know how you can say that with any certainty

 

i dont think dawson should be in the hall, and i couldve sworn he was a cub

 

Well you can apply most of their arguments against Ozzie's worthiness to Sandberg and see that they fit him pretty well too. Yet they don't seem to have a problem with him in the Hall.

 

Yeah, but Sandberg was 10 times the hitter Ozzie was, but Ozzie was not 10 times the fielder Sandberg was. As an all around player, Ozzie was a quite a few rungs down from Sandberg. Ryno was the best offensive and defensive 2B for nearly a decade. Ozzie was the best defensive SS for similar period, but he was a offensive non-entity, really. Even so, Ryno is a marginal HOF'er, barely good enough to get in, IMO.

 

I don't think it's fair to call him an "offensive non-entity." Maybe by today's standards he is, but not when he played in the 80's.

 

Okay, maybe that was a bit of hyperbole. But he wasn't an impact player offensively, by any stretch of the imagination.

[imb]

Wasnt his career ops+ like 80?

 

I dont have a problem with Ozzie being in the HOF, and I HATED him when I was growing up.

 

In it's current incarnation, Ozzie and Sandber belong. If the HOF were truely a HOF, Ozzie wouldn't be in, and Ryno would probably have just missed the cut.

 

Ozzie was a below average hitter at his position, and was way above average defensively.

 

Sandberg was an above average hitter at his position, and was above average defensively.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

If Ozzie had been a Cub there is no way anyone on this board would say he doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.

 

i dont know how you can say that with any certainty

 

i dont think dawson should be in the hall, and i couldve sworn he was a cub

 

Well you can apply most of their arguments against Ozzie's worthiness to Sandberg and see that they fit him pretty well too. Yet they don't seem to have a problem with him in the Hall.

 

Except Ozzie never put up offensive numbers like Ryno did.

 

No, but people are saying that Ozzie shouldn't be in the Hall because his offense wasn't good enough. Sandberg's was better than Ozzie's, but you can say that it too wasn't good enough.

 

I say that if a player is voted in to the Hall of Fame then he deserves to be there.

 

Until last season, Ryno held the record for most homers EVER by a 2B. I'd say that's good enough.

 

And for what it's worth, I think Ozzie does belong in the Hall. He did more than just play defense -- 2400+ hits, 580 SB, 1000+ BB, etc. You don't rack up numbers like that because you cannot handle the bat at all.

[CubinNY]

I think if one compares Ozzy to the SS of today, he pales. But if one were to look at the SS or the 19070s and 1980s PR (pre-Ripken) he stands out as clearly the best of his generation. His offensive numbers were not that far off the league leaders for his position and his defense was very good and for a long time.

 

If he played today he'd never make it, but he didn't. And I cannot penalize him for that.

[CubbieRich]

I guess you were in the clubhouse for all of Dawson's teams then. Talk about your meaningless points, Jesus.

 

Please show me any article that even hints that any of Andre Dawson's teammates called him anything less than a professional. You can't find it. While SI had stories of how Edmonds' Angels teammates criticized him a great deal. Look it up.

 

I checked with Baseball-Reference and found they compare Dawson's career numbers with players like Billy Williams, Tony Perez, Dave Parker, Al Kaline.. They compare Edmonds to Shawn Green, Tim Salmon, Jason Giambi and Wally Berger. Please feel free to begin your own 'Wally Berger for the HOF' thread today.

 

You can't ignore the Andre's career stats, All-Star selections and other accomplishments. Again I don't know if that is HOF material, but Edmonds is clearly not better than Andruw Jones, Griffey Jr. and they play CF in the NL.

 

Not sorry.

[CubinNY]

My prediction for the HOF is that after Maddux and Clemens there will be very few "steriod era" players to get in. I think the writers are going to be very tough on all of the current players when it comes their time.

[Derwood]

I think if one compares Ozzy to the SS of today, he pales. But if one were to look at the SS or the 19070s and 1980s PR (pre-Ripken) he stands out as clearly the best of his generation. His offensive numbers were not that far off the league leaders for his position and his defense was very good and for a long time.

 

If he played today he'd never make it, but he didn't. And I cannot penalize him for that.

 

I think Robin Yount blows the "70's and 80's" shortstop myth. He led the majors in hits in the 80's....

[Backtobanks]

Obviously, statistics mean a lot, but don't forget a lot depends on what city you play in. If you play in NY, the media automatically builds you into a superstar. Also, the attention you get from playing on championship teams goes a long way in HOF balloting. The success of the Cards helped Smith gain the notariety he needed for the HOF, while Dawson played most of his career in Montreal. Look at the individual statistics that Santo has and tell me that playing on a losing team (for the most part) hasn't cost him a place in the HOF. Players from places like Toronto, KC, Florida, and Tampa Bay will have to put up numbers far superior to their peers from NY and LA to be considered for the HOF.

[Bull]

Obviously, statistics mean a lot, but don't forget a lot depends on what city you play in. If you play in NY, the media automatically builds you into a superstar. Also, the attention you get from playing on championship teams goes a long way in HOF balloting. The success of the Cards helped Smith gain the notariety he needed for the HOF, while Dawson played most of his career in Montreal. Look at the individual statistics that Santo has and tell me that playing on a losing team (for the most part) hasn't cost him a place in the HOF. Players from places like Toronto, KC, Florida, and Tampa Bay will have to put up numbers far superior to their peers from NY and LA to be considered for the HOF.

 

But by the same token, in this era most HOF caliber players will ot remain for an entire carreer in Tor, KC, Florida and Tampa. If they are that good, they'll go to a money team.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

My prediction for the HOF is that after Maddux and Clemens there will be very few "steriod era" players to get in. I think the writers are going to be very tough on all of the current players when it comes their time.

 

I have no doubts that that is true. I saw a story a while back (I think on ESPN.com) that there was less than overwhelming support for Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa to make the Hall because of the speculation. Wouldn't it be something if Barry came back to break Hammerin' Hank's record and did NOT make the HOF?

[CubinNY]

I think if one compares Ozzy to the SS of today, he pales. But if one were to look at the SS or the 19070s and 1980s PR (pre-Ripken) he stands out as clearly the best of his generation. His offensive numbers were not that far off the league leaders for his position and his defense was very good and for a long time.

 

If he played today he'd never make it, but he didn't. And I cannot penalize him for that.

 

I think Robin Yount blows the "70's and 80's" shortstop myth. He led the majors in hits in the 80's....

 

And deservidly so, Yount is HOFer. What is your point? That Yount proves SS wasn't a weak hitting, mostly defensive position, for most of the 20th century? If that it your point then we will have to agree to disagree.

 

Yount wasn't even a SS for his entire career. IIRC he had more ABs at CF then he did at SS.

Edited August 2, 2005 by CubinNY

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I think if one compares Ozzy to the SS of today, he pales. But if one were to look at the SS or the 19070s and 1980s PR (pre-Ripken) he stands out as clearly the best of his generation. His offensive numbers were not that far off the league leaders for his position and his defense was very good and for a long time.

 

If he played today he'd never make it, but he didn't. And I cannot penalize him for that.

 

I think Robin Yount blows the "70's and 80's" shortstop myth. He led the majors in hits in the 80's....

 

And deservidly so, Yount is HOFer. What is your point? That Yount proves SS wasn't a weak hitting position, mostly defensive position, for most of the 20th century? If that it your point then we will have to agree to disagree.

 

Yount wasn't even a SS for his entire career. IIRC he had more ABs at CF then he did at SS.

 

I am not positive about the AB number, but he played something like 260 more games at SS than CF. My guess is there were more ABs while at SS.

[GaryWoods]

I think if one compares Ozzy to the SS of today, he pales. But if one were to look at the SS or the 19070s and 1980s PR (pre-Ripken) he stands out as clearly the best of his generation. His offensive numbers were not that far off the league leaders for his position and his defense was very good and for a long time.

 

If he played today he'd never make it, but he didn't. And I cannot penalize him for that.

 

I think Robin Yount blows the "70's and 80's" shortstop myth. He led the majors in hits in the 80's....

 

Yount played more games in the outfield (690) in the '80s than at shortstop (639).

 

As far as "blowing the myth" goes: Yount was the exception to the rule as a shortstop during the time he played that position. In Yount's MVP season of 1982, the immortal Fred Stanley posted a whopping .537 OPS for the A's. He's not the norm either, of course; but you can't look at one extreme or the other and say "this is typical."

[rocket]

I guess you were in the clubhouse for all of Dawson's teams then. Talk about your meaningless points, Jesus.

 

Please show me any article that even hints that any of Andre Dawson's teammates called him anything less than a professional. You can't find it. While SI had stories of how Edmonds' Angels teammates criticized him a great deal. Look it up.

 

I checked with Baseball-Reference and found they compare Dawson's career numbers with players like Billy Williams, Tony Perez, Dave Parker, Al Kaline.. They compare Edmonds to Shawn Green, Tim Salmon, Jason Giambi and Wally Berger. Please feel free to begin your own 'Wally Berger for the HOF' thread today.

 

You can't ignore the Andre's career stats, All-Star selections and other accomplishments. Again I don't know if that is HOF material, but Edmonds is clearly not better than Andruw Jones, Griffey Jr. and they play CF in the NL.

 

Not sorry.

 

I wasn't trying to say Dawson wasn't professional. I was saying it was a completely meaningless post. Teammates didn't get along with Edmonds? Who cares, it's baseball. It means relatively little.

 

THE Dave Parker?! Wow! And for the record, none of those players mentioned in comparison with Dawson, with the exception of Williams, are overwhelmingly hall worthy, in my opinion.

 

And yes, Edmonds is better than Andruw Jones and Griffey Jr.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

And yes, Edmonds is better than Andruw Jones and Griffey Jr.

 

Why do you say that Edmonds is better than Griffey? Over their careers they have remarkably similar numbers. Or were you just talking about present day?

[rocket]

And yes, Edmonds is better than Andruw Jones and Griffey Jr.

 

Why do you say that Edmonds is better than Griffey? Over their careers they have remarkably similar numbers. Or were you just talking about present day?

 

Present day.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

And yes, Edmonds is better than Andruw Jones and Griffey Jr.

 

Why do you say that Edmonds is better than Griffey? Over their careers they have remarkably similar numbers. Or were you just talking about present day?

 

Present day.

 

I should've been able to figure that by reading CubbieRich's post. My bad.

[rocket]

After re-examining the stats, Andruw Jones is having a better season than Edmonds. But Edmonds is still doing better than Griffey.

[Derwood]

My prediction for the HOF is that after Maddux and Clemens there will be very few "steriod era" players to get in. I think the writers are going to be very tough on all of the current players when it comes their time.

 

I have no doubts that that is true. I saw a story a while back (I think on ESPN.com) that there was less than overwhelming support for Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa to make the Hall because of the speculation. Wouldn't it be something if Barry came back to break Hammerin' Hank's record and did NOT make the HOF?

 

Won't happen. Steroids or not, I'm not sure anyone can, in good conscience, leave a 6 time MVP out of the Hall without hard proof that someone cheated throughout their career.

[CubbieRich]

And yes, Edmonds is better than Andruw Jones and Griffey Jr.

 

Why do you say that Edmonds is better than Griffey? Over their careers they have remarkably similar numbers. Or were you just talking about present day?

 

Present day.

 

It's unwise to only take snapshots and base one's opinions on a player's effectiveness by ignoring production stats and projecting what may be, rather than what is. If this wasn't true, Kerry Wood with his small BA against would be highly regarded, rather than the over-priced, oft-injured bum that he is.

 

Edmonds is an above average CF, not HOF material. He is no Andruw Jones or Griffey, Jr. though. Additionally, open criticism from one's teammates undermines the team's attitude and eventually their success. Edmonds makes some wonderful catches, but also showboats. His fellow players said that Edmonds at times was more interested in getting on Sportscenter than anything else.

[rocket]

And yes, Edmonds is better than Andruw Jones and Griffey Jr.

 

Why do you say that Edmonds is better than Griffey? Over their careers they have remarkably similar numbers. Or were you just talking about present day?

 

Present day.

 

It's unwise to only take snapshots and base one's opinions on a player's effectiveness by ignoring production stats and projecting what may be, rather than what is. If this wasn't true, Kerry Wood with his small BA against would be highly regarded, rather than the over-priced, oft-injured bum that he is.

 

Edmonds is an above average CF, not HOF material. He is no Andruw Jones or Griffey, Jr. though. Additionally, open criticism from one's teammates undermines the team's attitude and eventually their success. Edmonds makes some wonderful catches, but also showboats. His fellow players said that Edmonds at times was more interested in getting on Sportscenter than anything else.

 

Compare Andruw's and Jim's career stats. What exactly is it that makes Andruw so much better than Jim? Jim has him beaten in nearly every offensive category. Andruw is a superior defender, I won't deny that, but it isn't so much better that it negates Jim's superior offense.