Sosa/Burnitz comparison

[Schwarber Fan]

Sammy Sosa's 2005 stats: Avg: .228, HR: 9, RBI: 29, Runs: 28

 

Jeromy Burnitz's 2005 stats: Avg: .277, HR: 14, RBI: 48, Runs: 53

 

Burny leads in every category, looks like a good move to me!!!

 

 

A few interesting facts:

 

Neither player has homered in 2 straight games this year

 

Sosa did not homer in May (He did however miss any Oriole games from the 5th thru the 23rd via the DL)

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

how much money did we waste dumping Sosa?

 

 

i'd still rather have burnitz in RF over Sosa at this point in time, but that money would have been nice to have.

[AramisRamirez]

shammy sosa is having a great year. its not that much different than his year in 1998. the only difference's come in BA, OBP, SLUG%, HR, RBI, and R's. other than that, he's pretty much the same player.

 

in all seriousness, burnitz is producing much better than sammy is right now. thank God, but its not really a consolation to me because we're not where we want to be.

[Blueheart05]

how much money did we waste dumping Sosa?

 

 

i'd still rather have burnitz in RF over Sosa at this point in time, but that money would have been nice to have.

 

Well, we can't have it both ways. I think this team would be worse with Sosa. Imagine having a very proud and stubborn Sammy hitting .220 to go along with Corey and Dubois. OMG, that would have been horrible. The true lesson here has to do with the type of contract the Cubs gave an agimg Sosa...

[katway]

how much money did we waste dumping Sosa?.

 

Do you mean...how much money did we waste signing Sosa? After all, we were stuck with the contract whether or not we got rid of him. No one else was going to eat that contract. Might as well chalk it up as payment for past services rendered and a nice phased retirement pay out.

Edited July 17, 2005 by katway

[Roast]

how much money did we waste dumping Sosa?.

 

Do you mean...how much money did we waste signing Sosa? .

 

At the time when we signed him, he was worth every penny. I dont think anyone could have forseen the decline. At least, not to the extent he has.

 

That being said, I still beleive that if hendry, baker, and the cubs organization would not have played out the whole end of the season sosa controversy the way it did, we coudl have gotten a better deal then what we did. I beleive that the way they let the whole thing play out in the media, rather then keeping it in the clubhouse was a big mistake, and probably cost us a better deal. Hairston, however, has worked out pretty well.

[badger1679666666]

No Juice = Sammy Sucks

[Roast]

No Juice = Sammy Sucks

 

:roll:

 

yes, a decline after the prime of ones career is surly due to juice.

 

Yuck. I know posting this will spark a huge debate about roids. but statements like that are really annoying.

[Sarcastic]

Didn't we already have one of these threads?

 

I think we can all agree that the Cubs are better off now than they would be if they hadn't done anything about the situation. The main point of contention seems to be the idea that he was worth more than what we got for him, that the team benefited from the trade, but not as much as it should have.

 

How many people here have looked at Sosa's lines from 2002 to 2004? There is a pretty obvious and dramatic decline from year to year. Anyone looking at Sosa and not remembering fondly how great he was for the team and the city in years past would have recognized there was a big risk that he would decline further this year, and because of that, I don't think his trade value was high enough for anyone to be willing to take on much more of his contract than the Orioles did, with or without the ridiculous shenanigans at the end of the season.

[Roast]

with or without the ridiculous shenanigans at the end of the season.

 

I have to disagree. I think If the managment shuts their traps, and deals with it in house, his trade value is higher. Yes he was in a decline. But He was still Slammin Sammy. Despite the fact he only hit in the low 200's, he still had quite a few HR's. I'm sure alot of teams would accept the lower average for the power. The club decided to make him into CLUBHOUSE CANCER SAMMY SOSA, however, and i beleive that hurt his value.

[Sarcastic]

No Juice = Sammy Sucks

 

:roll:

 

yes, a decline after the prime of ones career is surly due to juice.

 

Yuck. I know posting this will spark a huge debate about roids. but statements like that are really annoying.

 

I'm with RTDG. Any talk about Sosa using steriods is just speculation at this point, and it isn't really relevant to the topic. I suggest we stick to the topic and not speculate about who injected what.

[badger1679666666]

Y'all have your opinions, I have mine. There isn't a doubt in my mind, that he was on the juice, just like Jose, Barry, Giambi, McGwire. If you think what happened to him is just "normal decline" you can have your blinders on.

 

And that's fine. In the Sosa/Burnitz comparison, Burnitiz Pwning Sosa in just about every category. And he's a significantly better player in teh clubhouse. I'm happy with the pickup.

[Sarcastic]

with or without the ridiculous shenanigans at the end of the season.

 

I have to disagree. I think If the managment shuts their traps, and deals with it in house, his trade value is higher. Yes he was in a decline. But He was still Slammin Sammy. Despite the fact he only hit in the low 200's, he still had quite a few HR's. I'm sure alot of teams would accept the lower average for the power. The club decided to make him into CLUBHOUSE CANCER SAMMY SOSA, however, and i beleive that hurt his value.

 

G/ BA/ OBP/ SLG/HR

2002: 150/.288/.399/.594/49

2003: 137/.279/.358/.553/40

2004: 126/.253/.332/.517/35

 

Sosa's batting average wasn't the only thing to decrease. His OBP shrunk, and so did his slugging percentage. Not to mention that he was spending less and less time on the field. He still had some power, but I don't think that he qualified as a top power hitter anymore. Besides, with his low batting average and OBP the trade off was becoming less acceptable.

 

There was definitely some room to hope that he would recover somewhat and have a good, injury free year, but considering his age, his contract, and his consistent and sharp decline, I don't think we would have gotten anyone to eat most of his contract, even if he wasn't labeled a clubhouse cancer.

 

Tell me honestly, if these were the numbers put up by some random player, would you pay $17,000,000 or more and give up any kind of real talent to acquire him?

 

That is pretty much all I have on this argument, except for one thing.

 

I have five posts so far, and I don't even get a welcome to NSBB? :D

[katway]

with or without the ridiculous shenanigans at the end of the season.

 

I have to disagree. I think If the managment shuts their traps, and deals with it in house, his trade value is higher. Yes he was in a decline. But He was still Slammin Sammy. Despite the fact he only hit in the low 200's, he still had quite a few HR's. I'm sure alot of teams would accept the lower average for the power. The club decided to make him into CLUBHOUSE CANCER SAMMY SOSA, however, and i beleive that hurt his value.

 

If the team didn't reveal his surly dispossition at the end of the year, another team would have surely investigated why the Cubs were trading him and discovered the truth anyway.

 

In addition, there is no way Sosa drops the next guaranteed year unless he has to eat some value do to his poor reputation. No team was going to give us much value for 2 years of an inflated contract.

[mhuber92211]

Didn't we already have one of these threads?

 

 

Seemingly we have one of these threads once a week and they go the same direction. Sammy Sox, he was on 'roids, cubs are dumb for signing him, what a waste, blah, blah ,blah.

 

BTW Welcome! :D

[Illini Iceman]

with or without the ridiculous shenanigans at the end of the season.

 

I have to disagree. I think If the managment shuts their traps, and deals with it in house, his trade value is higher. Yes he was in a decline. But He was still Slammin Sammy. Despite the fact he only hit in the low 200's, he still had quite a few HR's. I'm sure alot of teams would accept the lower average for the power. The club decided to make him into CLUBHOUSE CANCER SAMMY SOSA, however, and i beleive that hurt his value.

 

If the team didn't reveal his surly dispossition at the end of the year, another team would have surely investigated why the Cubs were trading him and discovered the truth anyway.

 

In addition, there is no way Sosa drops the next guaranteed year unless he has to eat some value do to his poor reputation. No team was going to give us much value for 2 years of an inflated contract.

 

You also have to consider the business/marketing side of it. If the Cubs just keep everything quiet and trade him there would have been an uproar among the "average" fan who still remembers '98 Sosa. Those "average" fans are who buy a majority of the tickets and an awful lot of merchandise. It may be cold, but business can be that way, and the Cubs needed to "sell" their fan base on the idea of Sammy no longer being part of the team. He just happened to make it very easy for them.

[Roast]

 

You also have to consider the business/marketing side of it. If the Cubs just keep everything quiet and trade him there would have been an uproar among the "average" fan who still remembers '98 Sosa. Those "average" fans are who buy a majority of the tickets and an awful lot of merchandise. It may be cold, but business can be that way, and the Cubs needed to "sell" their fan base on the idea of Sammy no longer being part of the team. He just happened to make it very easy for them.

 

That is a sad and pathetic excuse. I'm not saying the cubs didnt do that, but that is disgusting if they did.

 

As far as the stats someone brought up, i know he declined. But, It can also be said that its a result of his minimal games played. You noted yourself he was not playing full seasons due to injury. I really do think that some AL team would have gave us a little more if we could give them that kind of power. I mean, 35 homers in 130 games is pretty darn good. I could see a team taking him on for his raw power alone. The show the cubs organization put on at the end of the year, however, destroyed any chance of such a thing happening.

[rocket]

And he's a significantly better player in teh clubhouse. I'm happy with the pickup.

 

Good thing our team has great chemistry, because they're already out of the division race, and quite a bit behind in the wildcard.

 

I'm glad Sammy's gone, because if the Cubs had this record with him on the team this year, he'd shoulder 100% of the blame, which would be unfair. Just like last year.

[Sarcastic]

And he's a significantly better player in teh clubhouse. I'm happy with the pickup.

 

Good thing our team has great chemistry, because they're already out of the division race, and quite a bit behind in the wildcard.

 

I'm glad Sammy's gone, because if the Cubs had this record with him on the team this year, he'd shoulder 100% of the blame, which would be unfair. Just like last year.

 

Being better in the clubhouse doesn't make a player bad and you can't reasonably disapprove of a trade that improves team chemistry just for that. In this case, "good chemistry" and tangible production came in the same package. 2004 was no more Sosa's fault than 2005 is Burnitz's fault, or the fault of the Sosa deal as a whole.

[treebird]

Sosa's batting average wasn't the only thing to decrease. His OBP shrunk, and so did his slugging percentage.

 

Unless you improve your walk rate/power, obp and slg will decline when avg goes down. His power and walk rate were indeed declining somewhat, but not as much as it might appear.

[CubfaninCA]

how much money did we waste dumping Sosa?

 

 

i'd still rather have burnitz in RF over Sosa at this point in time, but that money would have been nice to have.

 

Hairston > Sosa

[goldsjo]

Check this site out - http://www.sammyisgone.com

 

I saw a bunch of people at Wrigley on Friday wearing these shirts. I picked one up for $10. It's a funny shirt.

[Larry Horse]

And he's a significantly better player in teh clubhouse. I'm happy with the pickup.

 

Good thing our team has great chemistry, because they're already out of the division race, and quite a bit behind in the wildcard.

 

I'm glad Sammy's gone, because if the Cubs had this record with him on the team this year, he'd shoulder 100% of the blame, which would be unfair. Just like last year.

 

Gee that's funny, because the main excuses I heard, courtesy of the team, were heat, cold, injuries, announcers and booing fans. I'm sure I left some out.

[badger1679666666]

And he's a significantly better player in teh clubhouse. I'm happy with the pickup.

 

Good thing our team has great chemistry, because they're already out of the division race, and quite a bit behind in the wildcard.

 

I'm glad Sammy's gone, because if the Cubs had this record with him on the team this year, he'd shoulder 100% of the blame, which would be unfair. Just like last year.

 

Regardless, Burnitz is a Gamer. He hustles everyplay, plays defense about 1000 x's better than sosa, not as good of a hitter as sosa in Sosa's prime, but his hustle impresses me the most. He's quiet and goes about his business.

 

Chemistry isn't gonna help a team get better, but a team with bad chemistry wouldn't last through the injuries we've had and the 8 and 7 game losing streaks. I think it's the tangible that's allowed us to rebound everytime we've thought they were in the grave.

 

I'm not saying it was all Sosa, but he was a part of the distraction and detracted from the cohesivness of the team.

[SouthSideRyan]

In addition, there is no way Sosa drops the next guaranteed year unless he has to eat some value do to his poor reputation. No team was going to give us much value for 2 years of an inflated contract.

 

DING DING DING!!!

 

I don't remember if this was brought up in the previous thread about the trade on this board or on another board, but this is a great point. Sammy had no reason to waive that clause to be traded, and without the waiving of the clause, we're picking up a lot more than 13M.