Blame Game

halplm · July 12, 2005

I don't like all the blame Patterson is getting. Yes, he's utterly failed to perform this year, and maybe he just doesn't have what it takes, but to blame him for the entire team's free-swinging philosophy is absurd.

That's Baker's philosophy, and Patterson can't be blamed for doing things like his manager says too.

That article in the Tribune makes it sound like Patterson was causing the whole team to be free-swingers, and now that he's been sent down, they can all feel free to take pitches.

Baker just sometimes makes me sick. He's used sending Patterson and Dubois to make them scapegoats, disregarding the fact that he failed in ANY way to use them effectively even though everyone knows they have more talent than they displayed here this year.

As much as I love seing the Cubs win (especially against the Marlins), that sweep hurt this team, especially if it bought Baker any more time running this team.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I still think this team would be better with Patterson and Dubois on the field, as long as a competent manager put them in the right spots on the field and in the lineup.

Bruno7481 · July 12, 2005

I don't like all the blame Patterson is getting. Yes, he's utterly failed to perform this year, and maybe he just doesn't have what it takes, but to blame him for the entire team's free-swinging philosophy is absurd.

That's Baker's philosophy, and Patterson can't be blamed for doing things like his manager says too.

That article in the Tribune makes it sound like Patterson was causing the whole team to be free-swingers, and now that he's been sent down, they can all feel free to take pitches.

Baker just sometimes makes me sick. He's used sending Patterson and Dubois to make them scapegoats, disregarding the fact that he failed in ANY way to use them effectively even though everyone knows they have more talent than they displayed here this year.

As much as I love seing the Cubs win (especially against the Marlins), that sweep hurt this team, especially if it bought Baker any more time running this team.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I still think this team would be better with Patterson and Dubois on the field, as long as a competent manager put them in the right spots on the field and in the lineup.

I don't think its so much a Dusty Baker issue as it is a Corey Patterson issue. Patterson was lost out there, offnsively and defensively. It was actually sad to watch him play that way, especially at the plate. I don't think it would matter who was managing him. Baker didn't send them down, Hendry did. I think it was the right move, and I think it had to be made.

Patterson was not helping this team, a move had to be made. Let him work it out in Iowa, he will be back. At the moment, the team is better without him. Is it completely nd Dubois'fault the team is where it is now? Of course not, but they weren't helping that much.

I still think both can be very productive, but kepping Alou another year would have been the smarter move.

badger1679666666 · July 12, 2005

I think from Walkers comments, the Cubs were clearly frustrated with guys not getting on base ahead of Lee and Ramirez. His more recent comments suggest that's where they should stay the rest of the year (Hairston/Walker).

I don't think they wanted Patterson gone, but with comments about Dusty's managerial decisions, I think the whole team realized as long as C-Patt was up, he was gonna be hurting this team in the 1 hole. Now that he is gone and people are getting on base, it's a new feeling for the cubs. Maybe it wears off a little to see all these walks and guys getting on base up and down the lineup. Maybe not. We'll see soon. If they keep it up, maybe not to the extent of the Marlins series (with 5 7 and 9 walks) but they walk and work the counts, then there might be some truth to a change once Corey left.

I'm definitely NOT part of the Corey Defenders on this board, so keep that in mind as well.

katway · July 12, 2005

I agree that Baker and Clines didn't do a good job getting the hitters to focus on a solid approach to team hitting.

With respect to Patterson, he has failed miserably to make adjustments. Dusty put CPatt in leadof b/c it's what CPatt wanted. I think Baker was hoping that CPatt's request meant he was going to change his approach. Obviously, it didn't and Baker stuck with him too long. I don't blame Baker for CPatt's failures, CPatt's own stubborness to adjustment clearly is capping his potential as a player.

With respect to Dubois, looking at his numbers in the minors, I would say he is doing exactly what is to be expected. He can hit for power, but always struck out a lot and will only continue to strike out against major league pitching. I really don't think he's the answer to our problems in the outfield, but Murton could very well address this need.

dalgreen · July 12, 2005

I don't like all the blame Patterson is getting. Yes, he's utterly failed to perform this year, and maybe he just doesn't have what it takes, but to blame him for the entire team's free-swinging philosophy is absurd.

That's Baker's philosophy, and Patterson can't be blamed for doing things like his manager says too.

That article in the Tribune makes it sound like Patterson was causing the whole team to be free-swingers, and now that he's been sent down, they can all feel free to take pitches.

Baker just sometimes makes me sick. He's used sending Patterson and Dubois to make them scapegoats, disregarding the fact that he failed in ANY way to use them effectively even though everyone knows they have more talent than they displayed here this year.

As much as I love seing the Cubs win (especially against the Marlins), that sweep hurt this team, especially if it bought Baker any more time running this team.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I still think this team would be better with Patterson and Dubois on the field, as long as a competent manager put them in the right spots on the field and in the lineup.

Most of your posts this year seem to be directed at how bad of a manager Baker is, even on subjects that don't relate to him. Let me offer this to you, if Baker had been fired after last Thursday's game and the team won three in a row what would you have said? And, no, for those that have a tendency to read too much into things, I don't think Patterson's demotion had anything to do with the winning streak. I sure would hate it if you're hoping the Cubs don't make the playoffs just to increase Baker's chances of being gone. Again, he will not be fired, which further makes thinking a great run is bad for the team.

halplm · July 12, 2005

Yeah, most of my posts focus on Baker, because it's depressing to see him managing this club, and in my mind the biggest problem. Trying to fix smaller problems or blame specific players is a waste of time.

I didn't say Patterson shouldn't have been sent to the minors. He needed a change. If Baker's sticking around with no clue how to manage him, that change can only be sending him to the minors. The organization has been trying stick him in the leadoff spot forever because they want him to be something he is not. He's been struggling so much this year, he finally said. FINE, put me there, and of course it didnt' help him or the team.

I'm not a Corey apologist. He's not what he could have been. I just hate to see him as the scapegoat here when he is in no way the one who should be blamed.

Personally, I do not wish the Cubs ill will so that Baker gets fired. I will be sad if they make the playoffs and this results in Baker staying the manager longer, because I don't see how this team could possibly win a WS, and I don't care how many times BAker can get us to the playoffs if we don't win.

There's winning now, and there's winning long term. Baker is doing nothing to help us win now, and he's hurting us dreadfully long term... Saying, instead, that Corey's free swinging mentality was causing us to lose games, and we're in much better shape after sending him down... is placing blame incorrectly.

You can't blame individual players anyway. You can only blame a team for wins and losses. The Manager, however is to blame for how the team plays. That's his job.

Bruno7481 · July 12, 2005

and I don't care how many times BAker can get us to the playoffs if we don't win.

Yeah, I'd hate to see a perrenial playoff contender. It would get so boring watching a winning team.

Yes, I know Baker has just taken the Cubs there once in 2+ years, but come on. You wouldn't care if they made the playoffs?

ThePenguin11 · July 12, 2005

I look at it this way: Corey Patterson is the only player on this team that has not carried his weight in the lineup or in the field. All 7 other hitting positions have gotten hot and helped carry this team, including Neifi Perez. Patterson never sparked the lineup or made any kind of impact at any time. He did more damage than he did good. Even a guy like Barrett who hasn't had an awesome year went through a period of time where baserunners couldn't steal second base. Patterson's defense has been a letdown and to say his offense was a letdown would be a huge understatement. I think he deserves a larger share of the blame than anyone else on this team. Latroy, Rem and Borowski are the only players who've been worse.

JC · July 12, 2005

I look at it this way: Corey Patterson is the only player on this team that has not carried his weight in the lineup or in the field. All 7 other hitting positions have gotten hot and helped carry this team, including Neifi Perez. Patterson never sparked the lineup or made any kind of impact at any time. He did more damage than he did good. Even a guy like Barrett who hasn't had an awesome year went through a period of time where baserunners couldn't steal second base. Patterson's defense has been a letdown and to say his offense was a letdown would be a huge understatement. I think he deserves a larger share of the blame than anyone else on this team. Latroy, Rem and Borowski are the only players who've been worse.

On April 27, 2005, Patterson hit a walkoff homer in the ninth to secure a 8-7 victory over the Reds.

On June 26, 2005, Patterson hit a sixth inning home run to log the first run in a 2-0 victory against the White Sox.

In addition, while he was having a subpar year defensively, that sub par year is relative to the defensive standards Patterson previously set. He was still a subperb defensive CF, highlighted by the diving catch and double off base he made not too long ago.

While Patterson may not have provided sustained domination, he contributed directly to several wins on an underachieving Cub team.

halplm · July 12, 2005

and I don't care how many times BAker can get us to the playoffs if we don't win.

Yeah, I'd hate to see a perrenial playoff contender. It would get so boring watching a winning team.

Yes, I know Baker has just taken the Cubs there once in 2+ years, but come on. You wouldn't care if they made the playoffs?

Making the playoffs is pointless without winning the WS. Yes, it's great to have a winning team, but limping into the playoff with players like Macias and Perez starting every day will not lead to WS victories.

This team needs to move forward.

The point of this thread was to discuss the Tribune article about a change in team hitting strategy. I'm sorry if I sidetracked it with my own Baker annoyances.

What I'm wondering is if Baker had anythign to do with the change, or if it was the players getting together and saying "lets get on base more."

vance_the_cubs_fan · July 12, 2005

I'm no fan of Baker, but I will say this. While the ultimate goal is a World Series victory, if the Cubs could put together a situation like the Atlanta Braves of multiple play-off appearances but only one World Series title, I think I could be happy.

dalgreen · July 12, 2005

I look at it this way: Corey Patterson is the only player on this team that has not carried his weight in the lineup or in the field. All 7 other hitting positions have gotten hot and helped carry this team, including Neifi Perez. Patterson never sparked the lineup or made any kind of impact at any time. He did more damage than he did good. Even a guy like Barrett who hasn't had an awesome year went through a period of time where baserunners couldn't steal second base. Patterson's defense has been a letdown and to say his offense was a letdown would be a huge understatement. I think he deserves a larger share of the blame than anyone else on this team. Latroy, Rem and Borowski are the only players who've been worse.

On April 27, 2005, Patterson hit a walkoff homer in the ninth to secure a 8-7 victory over the Reds.

On June 26, 2005, Patterson hit a sixth inning home run to log the first run in a 2-0 victory against the White Sox.

In addition, while he was having a subpar year defensively, that sub par year is relative to the defensive standards Patterson previously set. He was still a subperb defensive CF, highlighted by the diving catch and double off base he made not too long ago.

While Patterson may not have provided sustained domination, he contributed directly to several wins on an underachieving Cub team.

Before someone tries to rip you for only coming up with two instances, there was the game in Cincy where he robbed two different players of extra base hits or homers (they both may have been homers) earlier this year with great catches. And the lead off bunt single that helped lead the Cubs to victory in the Saturday Sox game at the Cell. But I have a life outside of the Cubs and can't recall every aspect of the first 87 games to come up with the dozens of ways Patterson has had an impact on games this seasons.

JC · July 12, 2005

But I have a life outside of the Cubs and can't recall every aspect of the first 87 games to come up with the dozens of ways Patterson has had an impact on games this seasons.

Exactly. Thats why I just looked for his homer games in the game log for those examples. No question he was having a difficult season, but it doesn't need to be overstated.

ThePenguin11 · July 12, 2005

But I have a life outside of the Cubs and can't recall every aspect of the first 87 games to come up with the dozens of ways Patterson has had an impact on games this seasons.

Exactly. Thats why I just looked for his homer games in the game log for those examples. No question he was having a difficult season, but it doesn't need to be overstated.

Two or three games with contributions. You still can't argue the fact that he did not contribute nearly as often or for any long periods of time to help this team succeed. He's been awful. His defense has always been slightly above average. This year, his speed is still great, but he regularly misplays balls. You cannot argue the fact that of anyone who started regularly for this team, COREY PATTERSON has been the WEAKEST LINK. You cannot dispute it.

*Macias doesn't count BTW.

For the record, I never disliked Corey Patterson, I was very excited for him when I was at Spring Training this year. I watched him probably more than anyone else on the team. The fact is he's been a letdown this year. I hope he gets it back but it's going to take some time. He's going to have to realize that the best he'll ever be is a doubles hitter who can steal bases. He's nowhere near as strong as he thinks he is.

One thing to leave you all with:

Think about the last time Corey Patterson really nailed a majestic homerun. You know his last home run that was just blasted...

You can't. He's got warning track power. He'll never be the power hitter he believes he is. The sooner he realizes that, is the sooner he get's his career back.

Roast · July 12, 2005

Think about the last time Corey Patterson really nailed a majestic homerun. You know his last home run that was just blasted...

You can't. He's got warning track power. He'll never be the power hitter he believes he is. The sooner he realizes that, is the sooner he get's his career back.

That is absurd. Are you really telling me that HR's arent as good if they dont go as far? Are you really saying he has only warning track power? If so, you need to go check out some stats. In the last four years (02/03/04/05) Corey has hit 14, 13, 24, and 11 HRs respectivley. Obviously, the 05 number is dwarfed by the fact that its only the midway point. That is not warning track power.

Your argument simply doesnt hold any water. Majestic hr's dont mean squat. All you have to do is get them over the wall.

Roast · July 12, 2005

Oh, and, a quick stop at SI.com gave me a listing of the distances of all his HR's this year.

1) 360 ft. to R

2) 360 ft. to R

3) 420 ft. to RC

4) 390 ft. to R

5) 395 ft. to RC

6) 385 ft. to R

7) 365 ft. to R

8) 389 ft. to R

9) 400 ft. to R

10) 425 ft. to R

11) 354 ft. to R

How, Highlighted are the ones that are "majestic"

Yes, he hits them. And out of those, the only one that is particularly short is number 11.

If anything, that shows that he is an extreme pull hitter when it comes to power...

Roast · July 12, 2005

Ok, last post in a row, i promise...

But, by comparison, lets look at Bobby Abreu. I think (especially after last nights display) that you'd agree, he doesnt have warning track power.

1) 380 ft. to RC

2) 432 ft. to RC

3) 390 ft. to RC

4) 385 ft. to RC

5) 420 ft. to RC

6) 402 ft. to C

7) 415 ft. to RC

8) 345 ft. to R

9) 375 ft. to LC

10) 380 ft. to LC

11) 375 ft. to RC

12) 397 ft. to RC

13) 360 ft. to R

14) 390 ft. to RC

15) 360 ft. to L

16) 420 ft. to C

17) 395 ft. to RC

18) 420 ft. to R

Now, again, bolded are "majestic" blasts. (notice, i'm using 420 as a min for majestic). Abreu has 7 more HRs then corey, but only 2 more "majestic" blasts. And only ONE of his went farter than one of coreys. So does that mean Abreu has "warning track power" ?

ThePenguin11 · July 12, 2005

Think about the last time Corey Patterson really nailed a majestic homerun. You know his last home run that was just blasted...

You can't. He's got warning track power. He'll never be the power hitter he believes he is. The sooner he realizes that, is the sooner he get's his career back.

That is absurd. Are you really telling me that HR's arent as good if they dont go as far? Are you really saying he has only warning track power? If so, you need to go check out some stats. In the last four years (02/03/04/05) Corey has hit 14, 13, 24, and 11 HRs respectivley. Obviously, the 05 number is dwarfed by the fact that its only the midway point. That is not warning track power.

Your argument simply doesnt hold any water. Majestic hr's dont mean squat. All you have to do is get them over the wall.

Those weren't power numbers in dead ball era. /holding water.

2004 ~24 home run players:

Craig Biggio

Jason Bay )LOL

Sean Casey

Alex Gonzalez

Marquis Grissom

Granted guys like Burrell, Giles ( If you still want to call him a power hitter) and Beltran were in that range, but you can hardly call these guys sluggers.

Edited July 12, 2005 by ThePenguin11

Roast · July 12, 2005

Think about the last time Corey Patterson really nailed a majestic homerun. You know his last home run that was just blasted...

You can't. He's got warning track power. He'll never be the power hitter he believes he is. The sooner he realizes that, is the sooner he get's his career back.

That is absurd. Are you really telling me that HR's arent as good if they dont go as far? Are you really saying he has only warning track power? If so, you need to go check out some stats. In the last four years (02/03/04/05) Corey has hit 14, 13, 24, and 11 HRs respectivley. Obviously, the 05 number is dwarfed by the fact that its only the midway point. That is not warning track power.

Your argument simply doesnt hold any water. Majestic hr's dont mean squat. All you have to do is get them over the wall.

Those weren't power numbers in dead ball era. /holding water.

Did i say they were "power numbers"

I'm saying your argument, that corey has warning track power because he never hits any majestic blasts, is absoloutley absurd. And i'm saying, plain and simple, corey does not have warning track power. Warning track power is Macias, Ojeda (AUGIE!!!), Hairston, and guys with like 4 or 5 homers a year. Not 11-24.

ThePenguin11 · July 12, 2005

Oh, and, a quick stop at SI.com gave me a listing of the distances of all his HR's this year.

1) 360 ft. to R
2) 360 ft. to R
3) 420 ft. to RC
4) 390 ft. to R
5) 395 ft. to RC
6) 385 ft. to R
7) 365 ft. to R
8) 389 ft. to R
9) 400 ft. to R
10) 425 ft. to R
11) 354 ft. to R

How, Highlighted are the ones that are "majestic"

Yes, he hits them. And out of those, the only one that is particularly short is number 11.

If anything, that shows that he is an extreme pull hitter when it comes to power...

Look at how many just barely made it over the fence...

And how many were solo???

Roast · July 12, 2005

Oh, and, a quick stop at SI.com gave me a listing of the distances of all his HR's this year.

1) 360 ft. to R
2) 360 ft. to R
3) 420 ft. to RC
4) 390 ft. to R
5) 395 ft. to RC
6) 385 ft. to R
7) 365 ft. to R
8) 389 ft. to R
9) 400 ft. to R
10) 425 ft. to R
11) 354 ft. to R

How, Highlighted are the ones that are "majestic"

Yes, he hits them. And out of those, the only one that is particularly short is number 11.

If anything, that shows that he is an extreme pull hitter when it comes to power...

Look at how many just barely made it over the fence...

And how many were solo???

1st of all, your dead ball comment is wrong. In 1910 Frank Schulte of Chicago lead the league with TEN homers. Corey surpasses those with ease.

And, WHAT DOES IT MATTER IF THEY ARE SOLO. Sweet mary and Joseph. How is it his fault that no one is on when he goes deep. Jesus.

Also, not many of them "just made it over the fence". I can count four (numbers 1,2,7,11). And besides, what does it Matter if they just go over the fence. They went over, did they not?

ThePenguin11 · July 12, 2005

Oh, and, a quick stop at SI.com gave me a listing of the distances of all his HR's this year.

1) 360 ft. to R
2) 360 ft. to R
3) 420 ft. to RC
4) 390 ft. to R
5) 395 ft. to RC
6) 385 ft. to R
7) 365 ft. to R
8) 389 ft. to R
9) 400 ft. to R
10) 425 ft. to R
11) 354 ft. to R

How, Highlighted are the ones that are "majestic"

Yes, he hits them. And out of those, the only one that is particularly short is number 11.

If anything, that shows that he is an extreme pull hitter when it comes to power...

Look at how many just barely made it over the fence...

And how many were solo???

1st of all, your dead ball comment is wrong. In 1910 Frank Schulte of Chicago lead the league with TEN homers. Corey surpasses those with ease.

And, WHAT DOES IT MATTER IF THEY ARE SOLO. Sweet mary and Joseph. How is it his fault that no one is on when he goes deep. Jesus.

Also, not many of them "just made it over the fence". I can count four (numbers 1,2,7,11). And besides, what does it Matter if they just go over the fence. They went over, did they not?

I was talking about the most recent dead ball era in the late 70's and early 80's. The point of the solo comment was that they're not in pressure situations.

But fine, you win, he's gonna be a great slugger. One of the best. If you want to believe that its okay.

imb · July 12, 2005

I love when people cant handle being in an argument, and resort to either changing their argument on the fly, or misrepresenting what the other person is saying.

burnt out cubbie fan · July 12, 2005

"We play the blaming game,

Yes I mind, its not your turn.

We play the blaming game,

Yes I mind, its not your turn."

Roast · July 12, 2005

I love when people cant handle being in an argument, and resort to either changing their argument on the fly, or misrepresenting what the other person is saying.

Dont you, though?

Blame Game

Recommended Posts

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Create an account or sign in to comment

Create an account

Sign in

Member Statistics

Prospect News & Highlights

Recent News

Notes & Rumors

Recent Blogs